GRD - Page 2

Chris Townsend · 28 Sep 2004, 11:26 (Ref:1553512)

Nick

In the history you've managed to gather for the Watson car, do the names of Adrian Russell or Terry Fisher crop up? Both these guys had BDA engined GRD 372s and there weren't that many in existence in the UK. One is probably Robin Smythe's late season F3 converted to Atlantic in 1973 and the other could well be yours.

Chris

Dan Rear · 4 Oct 2004, 13:50 (Ref:1553513)

I recall the Fisher car occasionlly in Indylantic over here in '76. I presumed this was the one Russell later used in Libre, from 77 onwards, before he got his Lola. Also, Alan Clennell had one about this time, was this the same as the Fisher/Russell car ?

Chris Townsend · 4 Oct 2004, 16:10 (Ref:1553514)

Wasn't Clennell running on the hills?
The problem is that the Fisher and Russell cars appear together in 76, or at least in the same entry list so have to have different provenances.

The Watson car would be one likely source of a BDA engined GRD, the converted F3 car of Smythe is likely to be the other

Chris

Dan Rear · 14 Oct 2004, 17:28 (Ref:1553515)

Chris, Clennell entered in a 'GRD B73 1600 BDA' at Mallory April 76, and started evidently. Also entered at S'stone, 4-7-76, the "John Lepp/Ensign lap record" race. Don't know whether he started. Next I have him entered at Mall agian on July 25, also that race, Russell entered in a 'GRD372 Swindon 1600'. Russell finished 5th, no knowledge of Clennell. AR definitely started the Indylantic at Mall that year, in the 372, no other GRD entries.

In early 77 I have AR in the Lola T450/460 at S'stone in April, no mention of any GRD. That June M Watson is out in a 'GRDB72 1600', same race AR in the Lola again.

Finally that year, Mall on Sept 18, has AR in the Lola, Watson in his 'B72', and, at last, Fisher in a '372 Swindon'.

So... I reckon the Russell car was the one that Fisher later had, and the Watson one is completely separate. I don't see that the Clennell one goes to AR, TF or MW. is this clear? !!!

Chris Townsend · 14 Oct 2004, 18:38 (Ref:1553516)

Don't you just hate it when history refuses to conform to theory!

Dan, many thanks. Didn't realise that Watson kept his car so long. That takes it right out of the equation as you say.

I now know that Clennell's car was 054, actually a 273, originally run for Kazato and McInerney in F2 and then used by Chris Oates and various rentadrivers in Atlantic in 73. He kept it until at least 1978.

The problem now is that we have two BDA engined "372s" going in 1976 which are distinct entities, in addition to the Watson car.
We have Russell and Dave Saunders, who appears in Indyatlantic at the same time as Russell. Now unless Saunders borrows Clennell's car - which is a possibility - there are another car in circulation.
The other question is one of misattribution. I don't know what happened to Doug Thompson's 273-051 [an ex Williamson car] after 1974. Does anyone know what became of this one?

Dan Rear · 18 Oct 2004, 10:00 (Ref:1553517)

Chris, re Scottish GRDs. I presume 'Robin Smythe' was actually our old mate Robin Smith, of Smith & Jones fame ? I remember the Doug Thomson car from reports, I think his backer was "Thistle Metallics" a very evocative name I always thought !

HH Tech · 25 Oct 2004, 06:07 (Ref:1553532)

Hello
I'm about to restore a GRD 372 F3 and I'm also interested of the cars History

In 1973 it was raced in UK by Mo Harness

5'th at Cadwell park 10th of sept 1972 in a "GRD-Leabro 372"

It was sold to Jan Ridell in Sweden mid season 1973 who raced it in 1973.

Any recollection of Mo Harness?

Henrik

davemorganfan · 25 Oct 2004, 08:39 (Ref:1553533)

Yes! Mo Harness was a very quick driver who came up from the then usual FF route to enter F3 in 1972 with an old Brabham BT28 powered by a home built engine. He ran on a very small budget but despite that he was very competitive. He came from Spilsby in Lincolnshire, in England. Unfortunately, I don't recall why he didn't go any further than F3, although I guess lack of money must have had something to do with it. A lost talent, I think.

Chris Townsend · 25 Oct 2004, 12:56 (Ref:1553534)

HH

According to the British magazine Motoring News, Harness' car went to Jac Nelleman early in 1973. He may have sold it on to Ridell. Do you have any more details on the history, 1973 on?

Also, does the car have a plate? From the date of its first appearance it can only be one of a few cars, but we don't have it noted anywhere in Adam Ferrington's excellent GRD records from the time. At a guess it would be chassis 31.

I've got most of the results for the car in 1972 backed up in a hard drive somewhere, and will dig them out for you

chris

HH Tech · 25 Oct 2004, 13:07 (Ref:1553535)

Hello
Yes it's #10
The owner made some research and It is said that Ridell bought the car from Mo in 1973 equiped with a Vegatune 1600
Ridell raced it during 73
For 1974 the car was sent to GRD to be updated to 2000cc spec he didn´t get the car back until mid season -74 and did 4-5 races
He built his own BMW engine for it for 1975
He sold the car mid season -76 to Dikberg wo cxrashed it in -77 then sold on whitout engine.
The car now has a new monocouqe.

Ch #18 Bengt Gilhorn car sold new by Wendels
Ch #47 Hasse Wengstre sold new by Wendels
Ch #48 Anders Olofsson
Ch #49 Raced in period by Håkan Alrikson car might be in Norway

HH Tech · 25 Oct 2004, 14:19 (Ref:1553536)

#10 and #18 is 1972
#47, #48 and #49 is 1973

Henrik

Chris Townsend · 25 Oct 2004, 15:10 (Ref:1553537)

HH.

That it's 10 is rather interesting. It seems that GRD series began at 010 and if so, this was the original 1972 car raced by Sutcliffe and then became the team spare in early 72. So at some point in mid season it got sold to Harness rather than him buying a new car. This fits with what Dan says about his finances.

I think the first three cars are
010: F3 prototype raced late 72 by Sutcliffe then works early to mid 73
011: FB/F2 prototype raced in US by McConnell, taken to Tasman and then back to UK. Maybe taken to Canada by McConnell in 73.
012: First customer car for Martin Watson, UK F.Atlantic - see GRD thread elsewhere on this forum

BUT: I'm going to have to go and check when Harness first appears in the car, because it got rented out by the works as late as August when according to Autosport Roger Williamson used it after crashing the Wheatcroft car at Oulton, and he also used it at Silverstone in May.

It may be that there is some March style plate switching going on here. If not, you've got a car with a great history.

Also, what is the source of your other chassis numbers?
Was Wengstre an entrant rather than a driver, because we have a contemporary record for 047 as driven by Ingvar Carlsson in 73.
Same record notes 048 as Gunnar Nordstrom, but I agree car goes to Olofsson for the 1975 season.

018 is the problem, because F1 Register [admittedly unreliable] gives this as a F2 car raced by Claude Bourgoignie

Chris

Adam Ferrington · 25 Oct 2004, 16:11 (Ref:1553538)

Very Interesting!

Chris,

I agree that we should assume (at this stage) that Bourgoignie's F2 car was 018 per F1R. I saw this car at the last Crystal Palace F2 in 72, and I must have read 018 as 010 (easily done!). As its first appearance wasn't until 72 this probably fits.

This would make 010 a GRD works F3 "hack" used by various drivers until allocated to Harness in July 72 (his first appearance was at Brands on 14/7). I'm sure my association of this car with Nellemann would be from a contemporary "bit" in either MN or Autosport, as Nellemann didn't visit the UK in 73 with the car, so I couldn't have seen it.

re. 011 - As you know my records show this as the original F3 car used by Sutcliffe in 71 at Brands and Lydden and then used by Sutcliffe and Williamson. I saw this car at Oulton several times.

As we now know, 012 was Watson's Atlantic car - as you say the first customer car.

Chris Townsend · 25 Oct 2004, 16:26 (Ref:1553539)

Adam

My source for Nelleman is probably the same as yours here! I'll look it up in my 1973 notebook tonight, but I think it's MN.

My point about plate switching concerned the Bourgoignie car, because at one point F1R have it as 010 too! But we know that to have been the plate on Sutcliffe's car that became the hack. However, if 010 goes to Harness in July, what does Williamson drive at Oulton in August? AS thinks it's the hack car he used at Silverstone [from my memory of reading the report a couple of months ago]. Is there another spare car for GRS.
For cars that appeared in 1972 there are only six numbers in the series missing. [Assuming Smythe's 036 which doesn't appear till October to be the last one of the racing season, and all the others appear well before that]
We don't know the numbers of

Hans Peter Hoffmann
Rolf Zumstein
Bengt Gilhorn [18 suspect?]
GRS car for Keichi Tahara
Wheatcroft for Williamson
David McConnell's new car for 1972 [if it wasn't 011 rebuilt]
Sutcliffe's replacement for 010 as regular car
A spare car replacing 010 as hack
8 cars

These are the missing numbers
13 maybe not built
17
19
27
28
29
31
32 appears spring 73 with Larry Perkins so there must be a press comment somewhere about its source.

Also, the GRS car 030 which appears in September for Ian Taylor and Barry Maskell must have an earlier life in someone's hands, given that 33 & 34 appear in July. Is this Sutcliffe's second car?
8 numbers available if 13 not built!

Chris

Adam Ferrington · 25 Oct 2004, 16:29 (Ref:1553540)

Re. the 73 F3 cars in Sweden.........

Yes, 047 was raced by Ingvar Carlsson for Hans Wangstre Racing. According to my records he kept it at least until 1975.

048 was raced by Nordstrom in 73 and 74 and by Anders Oloffsson in 75 (I saw it at the Silverstone BGP F3 in July 75).

Re. Alriksson, I have him appearing in a GRD (presumably the same car) in Sweden in 73 and At Nurburgring and Knutsdorp in 74 and 75.

Correction re. my previous post on the early 72 cars....Bourgoignie's car must remain a mystery if Harness's was 010 AND Gilhorn's was 018.

The mystery is Jan Ridell's 1973 F3 appearances. I don't have anything for him in my 73 records and neither do the F1 Register.
Henk, was he definitely a driver, and not just an entrant?

Henk, I will PM you what I have on Harness's car's UK appearances.

ADAM

Chris Townsend · 25 Oct 2004, 16:32 (Ref:1553541)

I don't have Ridell in 73 either. He does appear in a GRD in 1974 entered by Autosport Cypressvaegen.

Chris

Adam Ferrington · 25 Oct 2004, 16:34 (Ref:1553542)

Chris,

Sorry - our postings crossed.

I'll study what programmes (with notes) I have from that time so that we can try to filter my actual observations from what I read in MN or Autosport. I'll see what I come up with.

ADAM

HH Tech · 25 Oct 2004, 20:06 (Ref:1553543)

Hello
I'm just reading trough the map I borrowed for the car and There is a clip which presents Hasse Wengstres new F3 which Ingvar Carlsson is supposed to drive apperently this car was modified atumn 1974.
He was sponsored by Duckhams and He qualified 10th at Nürburgring and finished 8th.

The chassis numbers I quoted is from a phone call with SBF and take from old notes about who had registred for the Swedish F3 championchip

The Owner of #10 also have another GRD http://www.classicformula.se/Mantorp...25-049_JPG.jpg

I believe he has some more input to the history.

Henrik

RAP · 26 Oct 2004, 12:38 (Ref:1553518)

Interesting about Roger Williamson's car.Is the chassis number of the genuine one known?

Chris Townsend · 26 Oct 2004, 15:12 (Ref:1553519)

Which Williamson car?
The F2s 273s used in 1973 were 051 and 052. We know 051 was Thompson's
At the end of 1972 he ran 272 016 [ex Kazato] in an Atlantic race.
We don't know [yet...] the chassis number of the 372 Wheatcroft ran in 1972
but Williamson ran 372 - 010 at Silverstone in May, the day after the Monaco meeting - this being the works spare and described in press as the prototype car - and at Oulton in August he again ran GRS's spare car, which we don't know the chassis number of.

RAP · 26 Oct 2004, 19:15 (Ref:1553520)

Chris. Thanks for the reply. I was actually refering to the post by Bryan Miller about the car in the Donington museum, having only just caught up with reading this thread.

Adam Ferrington · 26 Oct 2004, 21:12 (Ref:1553544)

Chris,

From my contemporary notes in race programmes the is the following relating to 1972 cars :-

BH 23/10/71
Sutcliffe 372 011 (NOT 010!)

BH 22/10/72
Ginn 022
GRS/Gerber 024
Vermilio/Sc Italia 026
GRS/Maskell 030
Alan Jones 033
Robin Smythe 036

Silv 7/4/73
Perkins 032
Kuwashima 033

OP 20/4/73
Passadore 021
Ginn 022
Brise 035

OP 27/4/74
Hooper (F4) 034

Silv 19/7/75
Spreafico 023

From this, the F1R (for F2), what we've learned recently re. 010, 012 and 018, this is how I see the 1972 cars :-

10 372 ? GRS 1972, to Harness 1972, to Jan Ridell
11 372 GRS/Sutcliffe 1972,
12 372 Martin Watson
13 Assume not used
14 272 Saloman Switzerland
15 372 ?GRS/Sutcliffe 1972, GRS Passadore 1973
16 272 GRS/Various drivers
17 ?
18 372 Gilhorn 1972, ? Wallinger, Russell
19 ?
20 272 GRS/Ikuzawa 1972, McMaster 1973
21 372 GRS/Rousselot 1972,
22 372 Ginn
23 372 Scuderia Italia 1972
24 372 GRS/Pinhol 1972, Craven 1973
25 372 Reystan/Kuwashima 1972, Macdonald 1973
26 372 Scuderia Italia 1972
27 ?
28 ?
29 ?
30 372 GRS/Maskell/Taylor 1972, Stanton/Knight 1973, Rod Smith 1973
31 ?
32 372 ?GRS 1972, Perkins 1973
33 372 Alan Jones 1972, Kuwashima 1973
34 372 Tim Brise 1972, Gavin Hooper 1974
35 372 Tony Brise 1972, Brise spare 1973
36 372 Rbin Smythe 1972/73

There are at least 6 discrete cars not identified above :-
272 Dave McConnell's Tasman car
272 Dave McConnells FB car (these are more than likely to be one and the same)
372 Swiss F3 Vonlanthen
372 Swiss F3 Hoffmann
372 Williamson 1972, Moffatt 1973
272 Bourgoignie 1972 to 1974
S72 GRD Ikuzawa/Miles

This is very much just a hypothesis.........
One problem is that MCConnell's Tasman car must be an early chassis number, but which?

David McKinney · 27 Oct 2004, 05:32 (Ref:1553545)

McConnell's Tasman car was 010, presumably the same car he had been using since the previous September.
I also have 014-F2 for Roland Binder in 1972 (in F2) and 020-F2 for Ikuzawa (in F3).
Were the 272s and 372s numbered in the same sequence?

Adam Ferrington · 27 Oct 2004, 08:53 (Ref:1553546)

David,

Thanks.

Yes the 272s and 372 (and all later GRD's) were all one numbering sequence, as with Ralt later.

If McConnell's Tasman car was 010 (I'm assuming you observed that number), which fits given it was the second ever GRD to race, then the number 10 given by Henk for the Mo Harness F3 car either implies that GRD converted MCConnell's Tasman car to an F3 on its return from Aus/NZ this becoming Harness's F3 car in mid-72 and McConnell's 1972 FAt/FB car was a later chassis OR McConnell's car was 010 throughout its life in Tasman/FAt/FB and Harness car was another number.
You refer to McConnell first using his car in September 71. Do you have more details?

Roland Binder ran a Brabham BT36 in 1972 F2 - where did he appear in a GRD?

I can only find Ikuzawa running in F2 in 1972, but his car was 020.

Thanks again,

Chris Townsend · 27 Oct 2004, 09:24 (Ref:1553547)

Adam

McConnell ran the first GRD FB car at the end of 71 in the US FB series.
Like you I presumed this to be 010. MN describes the car McConnell takes to the Tasman series as the first GRD built - which tallies with our supposition about the series starting with 10.
AS says that the car is returned to the UK after this. McConnell is to get a new car to take to N.America for 1973 while the older car is to be refitted as an FB for Jacques Couture.

McConnell is entered for the Atlantic race at Snetterton on 31.3.72 but DNA.
[This is the first programme I've got for 72 so there may be earlier...] Again DNA at Brands 15.4
Martin Watson's 012 appears in both races.
McConnell does appear in Canadian FB races in 1972 using a B72, which clearly has to be a new car, given that 010 now appears to be an F3 car! But Couture uses a Lotus and no other GRDs seem to appear in N.America that year

I think this makes a kind of sense.
010 McConnell 1971 then Tasman. Returned to works for rebuild for Couture. Deal falls through. Rebuilt as F3 for Harness then to Scandanavia
011 Sutcliffe 1971, then early 1972 F3. Then works hack.
This fits observations. What happened to 011 after 72 still a mystery.
012 First customer car for Watson.

McConnell's second FB car [B72] seems to go to Dick Doran in 1973 and a new B73 appears in May for John Milledge in US and Harry Stiller runs one for Bev Bond in UK.

Chris