Modus - Page 3

Smellybeard · 17 Sep 2003, 12:00 (Ref:1556215)

Greetings.
Good to see this running again.

M3-027-FA rear uprights are also marked M2. Methinks the other Kinnane car was the same (it's a long time since I've seen it though). The parallel links are carried by a thick machined alloy plate bolted to the bottom of the FT200 (which carries the correct serial).
The chassis plate is opposite the gearchange lever.
The tub is stripped at the moment. I can take a few pictures if that would help anyone...

David.

Bryan Miller · 21 Sep 2003, 00:16 (Ref:1556216)

Gentleman.

The plate under the gearbox is of course aluminium, not mag. my mistake, I have been working on my March which is a mag. plate , and the little grey cells malfunctioned.

I have a copy of the British G.P. programme for 1975 and the following Modus cars are in the support race for F3's.

Fritz Stehlin , Modus Ford/ Team Modus
Dick Parsons , Modus Ford/ Driver
Clive Baker , Modus Ford/ Southern-national Organs
Danny Sullivan , Modus Ford/ Team Modus
Peter Clark , Modus Ford/ Whisharts Garage
Eddie Cheever, Modus Ford/ Driver.

John Player Atlantic support race same meeting.

Tony Brise , / Team Modus
Ruedi Gygax, /Team Modus.

None of the above proves much , except the cars were quite popular at this time, except Danny Sullivan is in a car , but what is it???
This was only 1 or 2 weeks after Monaco ,and with 4 works entries Modus works would have been qquite busy.
If Sullivan's car was the same as used at Monaco , it is an amalgam of Gygax's and Sullivans, which I think was Gygax tub and Sullivan running gear , which allows us to have Gygax's suspension available to be kitted up [ Chris's word ] with a new 16 guage tub and put together in an accomadating deal for Mike Domingo a little later .

Yes the chassis plate is in the same position on Kevin's car.

The only way I can think of to progress this is to look at what existed at any one point in time.

1974.
2 Atlantic cars
1 x Brise
1 X Walkinshaw

Brise's could be a F3/FA mix.
Walkinshaw junks his very smartly.
One of these has to be , one would think M1-009-FA , despite the records supplied by Marcus Pye as listing 1975 , as this must be WRONG , as he lists all cars other than the 1st. as 1975 , and this is totally incorrect.

In 1975 I can identify,

Early car for Brise .
Later car for Brise .
A new car for Walkinshaw
Domingo's .
Dickson's of Perth , 2 cars M3-025-FA, Norman Dickson
M3-027-FA Richard Scott
Dave Charlton , Sth Africa M3-024-FA .

And poss. 75 build M3-034-FA , which was advertised on the internet about 6/12 months ago , with ch.pl. photo which I saw and confirm as 034 , this car seems to have been cloistered in Swiss Hillclimbs or somewhere, ran with Motul sponsorship.
I will post this then look at it to see if there are any faults so far.
Bryan.

Bryan Miller · 21 Sep 2003, 01:08 (Ref:1556217)

Chris.

I am revieving my Modus notes and titbits as follows , all from Autosport , to save typing I won't give refs.

Debut supposed for Brise at Oulton Pk. May 5 74 ref. p2. 25-4-74. with a note another Atlantic car already gone to Walkinshaw.
Brise actually debuted at Silverstone and car called an M3 , P35 16-5-74 , Walkinshaw also out in his new M3.

At Oulton pk. 27-5-74 ''Brise ran works M3 Atlantic with some of the bits off his Monaco F3 car ''.
Mallory June 27-74 Tony Brise in the new ?? Modus M3 [ newish ] but with side pontoons , but running F3 wheels and tyres.
Snappy Tom also on grid.
Report Modus have Holbay F2 eng. and scheduled to run in F2 car at Karlskoga Aug..
Walkinshaw had new tapered side pods on for British G.P. Atlantic race July 25 .p.39.
Tom totals his car..
27-2-75 . Peter Clark purshased the ex. Tony Brise/Ivor Goodwin M3 and will run in 1975 as a F3.

Autosport report 13-3-75, ''Tony Brise in his revised M3 ,
carries most of the suspension from last years car , but has new bulkheads and sleeker bodywork''.

Also 27-3-75 p7. Dick Parsons with Modus ''in fact the chassis used by Brise at Monaco in 1974 and updated March 1975.

Other notes from 1974 .
Scharmann Modus 26-9-74 p39Sullivan out in F3 Modus ''ex. Brise/Monaco/N'ring only then sat around unused.''
Goodwin Racing for sale 10=10=74 Modus F3 [used Atlantic photo] ''just rebuilt by Modus, same spec as Brise's Atlantic except wings/wheels . 10-10-74 p68.
Brise damaged his Atlantic quite badly at Mallory 13-10-74

Bryan Miller · 21 Sep 2003, 01:23 (Ref:1556218)

OOOOPS .

Autosport 24-10-74 p22 Brise D.N.S.'' concentrating on getting F.A and F5000 reeady after both damaged last weekend .
Modus article nov.14-74 p28 Marquart states concetrating on getting Obermosers 10 car order out of way at the end of nov.1974.
Photo of workshop with a sports car as well [Toj.].

Autosport 6-3-75 p23 Modus/Brise ''brand new car never turned a wheel ''

From that I now feel Brise had what looks like maybe 4 seperate Atlantic cars.

1 early 1974 , poss a combination car.
1 late 74 car after Mallory accident.
1 early 1975 car as above , this is the Gygax British G.P. car after reconversion then to Nicholson then N.Z.
Then the new built up car that is Brise's for the G.P. then his brother Tim and also Danny Sullivan as an Atlantic , then to David Purley Macau. 1975 and1976.

I would be most pleased to have anybody poke holes in any /all of the above.

Bryan.

Bryan Miller · 21 Sep 2003, 01:44 (Ref:1556219)

Further .

The 2 Autosport quotes , 1 week apart are the ones that have kept me confused for about 8 years .

Autosport 6-3-75 p23 Modus/Brise ''brand new never turned a wheel.

Autosport 13-3-75, Tony Brise in his revised M3 , carries most of the suspension from last years car , but new bulkheads and sleeker bodywork.''

Are we talking the exact same components as last year , or the same spec. components as last year.
On one hand brand new can mean BRAND NEW , or it can mean brand newly built up with some older /last year bits.

Help.
Ian. somewhere in this mess is the origins of the Domingo brothers car I believe , as with all these rebuilds etc. going on , it is easy to see Jo Marquart being in a position to be accomadating as you put it.

Bryan.

Smellybeard · 22 Sep 2003, 11:22 (Ref:1556220)

These "new bulkheads" interest me. 027 has extensive and obvious additions to the rear bulkhead (and still gave trouble). Sometimes I think that Jo shuld have stuck to busses.
What do the "old" and "new" bulkheads look like?

David.

allenbrown · 22 Sep 2003, 16:46 (Ref:1556221)

Good to see this thread running fast and hard again.

I have M5-021-F5 as Tom's late 1974 F5000 car - also from Marcus's data. As this car first races on 6 October (having appeared on entry lists since 8 Sept), I'd suggest it would be one of the very last 1974 numbers.

Interesting car, the M5. In three race appearances it managed just 2 competitive laps, an oil pump failure and two crashes. I guess the last crash, at Brands 20 Oct, was fatal for the car.

Allen

carrera · 22 Sep 2003, 19:03 (Ref:1556222)

May/may not be of use.

From programme of May 9th 1976, two previously mentioned racers -

Car 111 Dicksons of Perth/Focus and Kinross Motor Auctions, driver Richard Scott, car Modus M3/Nicholson

Car 707 British Caledonian Airways/Dicksons of Perth,
driver Norman Dickson, car Modus Ms/Nicholson

Car no 2 a Modus M3/Nicholson was driven by Phil Sharp.

IANHEB · 23 Sep 2003, 07:59 (Ref:1556223)

Bryan,
I agree,the Domingo car would have been a "bitsa" given the budget Mike had.I was wrong in saying it never ran again after the Simpson accident,it did come out a couple of times in 1979,although in most cases entries for the Modus were actually the Domingo's March 76B.
I presume the records for Modus are for actual cars built,and not a running total of all tubs built.For example,given the number of replacement tubs required by August '75,the Charlton car Ch no 24 would not have been built on tub 024-8-75,the tub number would have been higher by then.Any thoughts ?
Ian

Neptune · 24 Sep 2003, 22:12 (Ref:1556224)

Bryan,

Several months ago you suggested I join this site. I visited and lurked but didn't join. Did today after finding this thread.

You mentioned earlier that M1-006-F3 was with Ron Mallard. Ron sold it about 2 years ago in a 3 way deal and it is now also in Ohio. In fact, my M1-040-F3 is sitting beside it in a friend's shop.

Of particular interest is that the tub of that car (006)had been modified and the photos I had from Ron did not show the interesting details seen from the side of the front suspension. I have photos of the tub details which include a small riveted-in tubular sub-frame for the front suspension. It is the typical British grey structure and looks to me to have been there since new. Of course, the modified front roll hoop which this car has suffered hid all the uniqueness of this chassis.

Remember how Marcus Pye had described 001 as unique. I'll bet it was not and I'll bet this chassis is very much the same, but of course after sending the photos to him over 15 months ago, I have never received a reply.

Roger

Bryan Miller · 24 Sep 2003, 22:46 (Ref:1556225)

Roger .

Great to see you here.

022 has triangular re-inforcing sections rivetted to strengthen the rear bulkhead,if I remember correctly, and also aluminium right angle sections rivetted into the bottom inside rear of tub.

Exactly what does the front section do on 006 ????

022 has a rivetted section on the front bulkhead , through which the master cyl. pushrods pass, is this what you are describing.

022 also has the very clever front support for the shock absorbers,that also ties in the whole of the front, but I think they all have this.

Bryan.

Chris Townsend · 25 Sep 2003, 08:53 (Ref:1556226)

Allen

I don't believe that the F5000 car 021 that appeared in mid-75 was the same car that ran in late 74, or if it was it had a new number. What we have of the Modus works records suggests that the first big production run took place in early '75. If we believe that chassis 021 and 025 were 1975 cars, why do the contemporary records only show about 8 Moduses appearing?

The records from Marcus Pye show cars like McMaster's hillclimb car [011] and Mike Young's FSV [012] as early 75 completions. These cars definitely didn't appear in 74 - we know their owners used other cars. Why would 021 be completed and raced before them?
I believe that a minimum of 6 and maximum of ten Moduses were built in 1974.

Chris

Bryan Miller · 25 Sep 2003, 09:35 (Ref:1556227)

Chris.

I think I have to go along with that .

It may be that Walkinshaws car was re-fetteled into a new version and had a new plate slapped on it.

Do you have any ideas re. the Obermoser/Toj cars , as per the article in Autosport that says 10 to be del. before end of Nov. 1974 , did these use up Modus production records or what , if they were counted then we are well past 15 or so built, or did they maybe go out as kits , and have a Toj ch.pl. on them and have no bearing on our considerations.

The records I have in front of me have MI-007-F3 AND M2-008-SV as going to Obermoser , and as Scharmann had an early car, which is probably -002 , 004 or 005 , and seems to have been run by Obermoser.

I really would like to see the original , before it was updated by Marcus , maybe we have some typo's here that is stuffing us up.

From one of my earlier postings , re. the car run by Danny Sullivan, it would seem correct to be M1-016-F3 / Works/Danny Sullivan, as this ties in with my note on the car run by Sullivan as ex. Brise, used only at Monaco / N'ring and then sat around at the works unused till Sullivan got his hands on it for F3.

Re. the Walkinshaw car , when was the first time we see Tom in a F5000 type car.

Bryan.

Bryan Miller · 25 Sep 2003, 09:51 (Ref:1556228)

The above re. Sullivan is not correct as the statement was referring to his 1974 / september appearance, so this gives us 2 F3 cars which Sullivan used at least.

M1-016-F3 is probably the car he drove into the tree at Monaco in 1975 and poss. became a concoction of ex. Gygax. F3 and Sullivans F3. which the works put together at Monaco to get running again.

Bryan.

Bryan Miller · 25 Sep 2003, 10:08 (Ref:1556229)

Allen.

What is the source for the late 1974 reports of Walkinshaw in the M5-021-F5 , F1R or another source.

If we can confirm that chassis number ran in 1974 , it really does look like the Obermoser connection used up a lot of ch.no's.

To the people that are not aware , Obermoser had had a business relationship prior to Modus, when he was also doing similar deals with the G.R.D company where Jo Marquart also resided, and again after the demise of Modus , this relationship carried on still into the time of the Modus successor Argo cars, which was still Jo Marquart's enterprise up untill his death.

Bryan.

Chris Townsend · 25 Sep 2003, 10:15 (Ref:1556230)

Bryan

I think the Toj order is outside of the Modus records. There is a tranche of cars to Obermoser in early 75, but there are only 6 - a mixture of FSV and F3, which is probably people buying on the back of Scharman's competitiveness with the 1974 car.

Chris

Smellybeard · 25 Sep 2003, 10:39 (Ref:1556231)

027's rear bulkhead has a lot of steel added. This runs forward eight inches along theinsides of the tub. The bolt between the engine bay tubes and the closing rear crossmember broke in 1981 and a lot of the rivets popped. Inside the tub looked like the leftovers of a shootout.

There was (even before the big bang) obvious distorsion around the fuel fillers on either side. Look at the pick-ups for the top radius rods and the position of the holes for the fillers...

Dave

Bryan Miller · 25 Sep 2003, 11:24 (Ref:1556232)

Dave.

022 uses the roll-over bar as a structual member , via 4 1/2'' bolts through the rear alloy bulkhead, two at the top and two at the bottom.

The roll bar is one continuos unit , that also picks up on the bottom the two other rear supports that run to the forward edge of the alloy gearbox parallel link plate , and pick up a seperate crossmember bolted to the fronf edge of the adaptor plate to stop the toque re-action from the drive trying to close the distance on the bottom plane between the adaptor plate and the rear of the rear bulkhead. Does your car have this still.

Apparently Ralt found out on the RT1's this was also a problem.

I wish I could draw on a computer.

What I am trying to say is ,given the size of the roll-over bar , approx. 1.5'' dia. and the way it is supported to the tub, I wonder if at some time your car was run with out the bottom type of extra fixed radius rods, and the chassis was trying to twist itself in half.

How is the engine attached in yours, as I had to send drawings to our new poster Roger [ Neptune ] so he could figure out how it all worked.

022 has supports from the top rear shock pick-ups down to the rear of the block and then small subframes at the front which again tie into the roll-over bar assembly.

The standard Ford eng. mtg. on the block are not utilised.

Is yours the same , if it has a BDD in it or any Ford for that matter.?????????????

Neptune · 25 Sep 2003, 16:57 (Ref:1556233)

Bryan/ Chris & all,

I have digital photos of the subframe area of 006. This is totally unlike anything in 040. The front bulkhead in 040 and 022 has the upper front pickup point for the front end of the upper wishbone. If you remember Ron's photos of 006, (I think I sent some of them to you, didn't I), there is a rod end screwed into the subframe which appeared in Ron's photos to be the added front roll hoop structure required by SCCA in later years. But all Ron's photos were from above. When looking in the side of the tub, this front hoop structure is not what the rod end is attached to, but rather, a grey painted 1" square tube subframe. It basically is enclosed in the tub and provides front suspension pick-ups. On 040, there is another partial 1/4" thick bulkhead at the rear end of the front suspension. There is no thick partial bulkhead on 006.

As we have discussed earlier, Bryan, 040 has a bladder in the RH sponson, giving half the volume of a FAtl, but 006 has a wedge cell behind the seat dated 1974 and English. Another difference is the upper radius rod pickup point on 006 is on the side of the tub, but on 040, it is on top.

If you remember, you sent me pictures of the ex-Jack Stevens 002 after Jack had restored it. I see none of the 006 traits in those photos. I guess I should also say I am not the owner of 006, only 040, but I moved my car into my friend's shop before 006 was delivered to him. At that time, we felt 006 had been modified mercilessly and would require a new tub, and my car would then be the pattern for that new tub. Today we realise this is probably not going to be the case and 006 will probably be restored w/ most of it's unique features intact, but with the missing pieces modeled after my car. It will still probably require a new tub, but my car will be of limited use as a model.

Roger

allenbrown · 25 Sep 2003, 18:31 (Ref:1556234)

Hi all

I guess I have been talking rubbish!

As I don't have 1975 UK F5000 results yet (hint, hint

), I saw the results from Tom's 1974 racing and put that together with the M5-021-F5 entry in the data put together by Marcus Pye (that Bryan FAX'd me IIRC). If, as Chris says, the 1974 and 1975 F5000 Modus cars were different, then I agree M5-021-F5 was the 1975 car and I don't know the identity of the 1974 car.

To answer Bryan's question, Tom first raced the 1974 car on 6 Oct.

Allen

Chris Townsend · 26 Sep 2003, 09:41 (Ref:1556235)

Carrera

That reference you gave to the programme with the Scott and Dickson entries...
Would it be for a '76 Indyatlantic round?

carrera · 28 Sep 2003, 15:39 (Ref:1556236)

Indylantic '76 Round 2 May 9th Brands Hatch

2 Phil Sharp Modus M3/Nicholson
111 Richard Scott Modus M3/Nicholson
707 Norman Dickson Modus Ms/Nicholson

Neptune · 3 Oct 2003, 12:54 (Ref:1586093)

Bryan,

If you'll remember the Gotti modular wheels I got with the Modus that didn't fit it. I was told by Don that he'd acquired them to try to adapt them to the Modus to make it into an Atlantic car, but never did. He told me the came off a Jerry Hanson FAtl car. Any chance they might fit this 460? What is the pin PCD and how many pins are there?

Roger

IANHEB · 6 Oct 2003, 07:37 (Ref:1556240)

Bryan/Chris
The tub number is 043-2-76 , exactly where you said i should look.The 3 has lost its bottom half due to somebody hacking a 1 inch hole through the bulkhead at some stage,so there is a slight possibilty it could be a 7.However,i had a really good look ,and comparing to the 7 in 76,i am 99% sure it is a 3.
Surley built after both the Domingo and Charlton cars had arrived here ??
Ian

Bryan Miller · 6 Oct 2003, 09:56 (Ref:1556241)

Ian.

Isn't that interesting , is that the timeframe for the car, Feb. 1976 tub.

022 , is 054-7-76 , so July 1976.

Does the build of the car with a Feb. 76 tub allow enough time to have the car completed and over to your neck of the woods to start racing . Do you have a def. del. date into Sth. Africa from anybody.

Or are we looking at a replacement tub that everybody over there has forgotten happened.

To answer an earlier query by yourself , I can't concieve that the tub no. and the chassis no's would have lined up.

Roger , what happened to the M1-006 photo, lost in cyberspace somewhere.
Re. wheels , I will be looking at Col. Haste's new car in a few weeks and equire as to specs.

Chris, I will also advise all previous owners in SCCA logs if it is o.k. with Col. , which I have no dought it will be, but from what he has told me so far , it seems it only did SCCA races and didn't venture into Canada.

Regards All Bryan.