[LM24] The Le Mans experience

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
Think about it though: the Max & Bernie Show is the single most successful motorsports tour on Earth. Alright so you need twelve VIP passes to get to the paddock, alright so you spend half a month's salary on the tickets, but look at them generating tons of money, and worldwide media attention out of what in racing terms is a non-event. Imagine what they could do with the epic drama of a 24 hour race, as opposed to the daytime soap of F1. It could be magic!

...and let the ACO run F1 instead...

That depends how you measure success Cy. They may generate loads of dosh, but is that what its really all about? Bernie and Jean-Marie did there best to destroy sports car racing back in the early 90s. If they turned Le Mans into to 110% bore that F1 is right now (and, quite frankly, has been for many years) - a non-event indeed, that would be disastrous.

[cybersdorf]

Aren't we headed there anyway?

[Fab]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
Aren't we headed there anyway?

I don't think so, but it's an all personnal opinion.

As our member Wyzard, some may find it boring or displeasant... as boring as it could be, it'll be more pleasant for me that any other event. Oh, did I say "event" ? Odd that I didn't use "race"...

We had a "race" this year, it was clearly not always the case last four years. But even in the worst case, I'd prefer not involving the businesmen we mentionned above.

I'll always prefer an "amateur" boredom to a professionnal one

I couldn't say I'm confident in ACO. I wouldn't bet on a golden future for Le Mans. But I'll prefer this place unrapped - and giving a poor show - than let to the sharks.

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Fab
I'll always prefer an "amateur" boredom to a professionnal one

Good point

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
Aren't we headed there anyway?

No, I don't think so. There are events and non-events. F1 is a vast money-making machine which produces a dull predictable show. I'm sure Max and Bernie really know that they need to wield the knife fairly dramatically if they are going to make it into something that is worthy of the money being pumped in. How much longer will sponsors and partners continue to pump very large sums of money into teams which, in reality, have no chance of winning while Ferrari have a complete stranglehold on the situation?

There is a danger in believing that all motor races are effectively the same. Le Mans is nothing like F1. The two events are so far removed that comparisons are largely otiose. We all know that Le Mans is, most years, highly predictable, but its not just the racing which matters - its the event. Thats why I'll always go to Le Mans in preference to the Ring or Spa or wherever. Because I love Le Mans, the atmosphere of the place, the fact that it is a lot more than just another motor race. As far as I'm concerned, we're nowhere near boredom at Le Mans, and the late afternoon events on the Saturday this year proved that. Frankly, this years racde was vastly better than pretty well every one I've seen since 1995.

[Aysedasi]

PS. I don't fall asleep during the 24 Hours of Le Mans, but (if I bother to watch at all), I can be well off to the land of nod within 20 minutes of the start of a Grand Prix these days........

[cybersdorf]

True.
But.
If Audi decides not to let its cars race anymore, or to leave altogether, what will be left? Same with Corvette in GTS. The sport is at the mercy of two factories who are equally as dominant in their categories as Ferrari is in F1. With every respect to these factories, and thanks for hanging in there, this is wrong. Is the ACO doing anything to make its race attractive for new competitors? (ah yes of course, "the economy")

Come to Le Mans for a weekend of booze and cars and barbecues! - An event, yes. But, a race?

[Aysedasi]

Who ever said it was a race....?

How often has it really been a race - not just the last few years, but the last 30 or more....? To perceive Le Mans as just a race is, with respect, missing the point.

Any Granbd Prix is just a race. An hour and a half of watching the same red car go round and round in the lead and the marvellous spectacle of a TGF "leap" on the podium at the end - whoopee. If Audi did take a sabbatical (as I've hoped for elsewhere), I'd be absolutely delighted. Back to the roots with the likes of RFH, Pesca, Rollcentre, Kondo, Zytek et al. Doesn't sound all that unhealthy to me.......

And you know what I think about the "lesser" categories anyway - much as the Ferrari/Corvette battle was entertaining, they're just making up the numbers........

(Just thought I'd throw that in to wind up Saleen and a few others...... )

[paul-collins]

The only way that it would work to but Max and Bernie in charge is if they were no longer in charge of F1. They've already bled sportscars off for the benefit of F1 once.

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
Who ever said it was a race....?

The Automobile Club de'l Ouest maintains it is a race. And this is what it mainly should be. To perceive it as a great big garden party with some cars going round in the background is not a sensible approach; why should any company build a million $ car merely as a backdrop for a garden party.

Not even Le Mans can't survive on its heritage alone.

The miracle of multi-class racing, a bit complex to follow at first but one does get the hang of it eventually - calling the factory Corvette inferior to the Spinnaker Dallara is a fun idea.

[Fab]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
The Automobile Club de'l Ouest maintains it is a race.

Don't expect them to be honest : if you listen them, it's an "historical race" each year ! Obviously it's not, just because there's a real historical race each, say, 10 years ?

Originally posted by cybersdorf
And this is what it mainly should be.

It should be. And we've some race on the track, even if not always for the overall. And this year we HAD a race for the overall.

Originally posted by cybersdorf
To perceive it as a great big garden party with some cars going round in the background is not a sensible approach; why should any company build a million $ car merely as a backdrop for a garden party.

A company shouldn't. But an amateur could. And at the end it makes a... race ! Sometime... with a little bit of luck...

Originally posted by cybersdorf
Not even Le Mans can't survive on its heritage alone.

I think that this event will survive to everything, because ACO is not a society, it's a non-profit association. Even if we've poor cars on the track (we already had ! Remember 1975, 1994...), there always will be the 24 hours... More a garden party than a race in this case, but still an event for the fans (only for the fans, I admit).

Just heard that on the radio : for the french F1 GP, they have for now 57 000 paying tickets, and expect a "good last week" before the race. What ? 75 000 people ? 90 000 ? Le Mans is low nowadays with, say, 180 000/200 000... only at low tide... is there something to explain Pescarolo or Lammers commitment ? Or Courage ? Or the Japanese Kondo or Goh ?

Is there something explaining that we fools are tlaking about this party all year long ? I'm still asking myself why I can't wait until April for the next get together on the premises...

[MGDavid]

That's what I like about this forum - from an individual whinge to putting right the ills of world motosport, in 8 pages
I went to Le Mans for the first time some 8 years ago, wondered why I'd never been before, and it's now firmly on the annual calendar - only missed this year because we went to Sebring instead So, how do they compare? well frankly I found Sebring came up short - on information, atmosphere, facilities, and duration The saving grace was hearing John Hindhaugh's voice on the airwaves.
Put simply, nothing comes near to Le Mans and long may it remain so. Even if there were no manufacturers there, it wouldn't die - the Brit clubbies would take it over and run it as an interclub team race
On a side note, I heard last year the ACO were going to open a London office in recognition of the importance of their Brit customer base - did it happen?

[cybersdorf]

How many people will show up without a race to distract them from their partying? We may see a record crowd. Should we give it a try one of these days? The drivers will have all the time in the world to join in the fun, have a few beers with the fans, and tell their stories of how it used to be when there was a race.

No wait, there won't be any drivers. They will have to earn a living, in America, or in F1. But, who will notice! It's not a race anyhow.

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
The Automobile Club de'l Ouest maintains it is a race. And this is what it mainly should be. To perceive it as a great big garden party with some cars going round in the background is not a sensible approach; why should any company build a million $ car merely as a backdrop for a garden party.

Are you suggesting that people should only be allowed in if they promise to watch the race?

I tend to agree, cy. The race as marketed is not about the particular goings-on surrounding the track, but it's about the on-track action. This is why manufacturers do it (or should), and really it doesn't depend on fan participation at all. It's about success on the track.

"If you build it, (t)he(y) will come."

The ACO should focus on improving the field first and foremost, but they should also take into account what the primary fans (ie those who come for the race itself) need to follow the race. Comfort stations, viewing areas, shuttles, information on the race progress...

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
How many people will show up without a race to distract them from their partying? We may see a record crowd. Should we give it a try one of these days?

Sebring 1974, baby!

[Truckosaurus]

Originally posted by MGDavid
On a side note, I heard last year the ACO were going to open a London office in recognition of the importance of their Brit customer base - did it happen?

They definitely had an office in London at one stage as they announced the 2003 race entry from there, but since then I've not heard anything more. The booking form for 2004 had no mention of it, just the usual French address, phone and fax numbers.

[Fab]

Originally posted by paul-collins
The ACO should focus on improving the field first and foremost

I think ACO tries, but without the success we would like...

And that leads to another question : how would we do to improve the field, that ACO does not ?

Originally posted by paul-collins
but they should also take into account what the primary fans

They may be a minority on the spot ; but who knows ?

Anyway, I can't agree more

[SL]

It's first time I have commented here, but to be honest all the bad things tend to make the event. It could become so clinical it would rival F1. So lets keep it much the same. It has not changed a lot in my 25 years, apart from RLM and better showers !!!

The huge differance in the field makes a good race. The ACO have a huge task selecting teams 9 months before the day, they have to get a varied field and people who will turn up ! This year seemed very hard as there was very little factory team interest.

I would guess that GTS is the way to go, forget the big bangers, give them a chance of winning but look for an equal fight with GTS cars, they are almost there at the moment, the GTS almost match top speeds.

The LM2 class has to go, sorry but they don't last and are too slow. Is there space for something like the German saloon's to compete ? Don't really want the Daytona things, maybe even a 'classic' class. Not sure if a 962 or 917 could keep pace with an Audi but they will be there at the end.

Anyway looking forward to mid June 2005

Simon

[Fab]

Originally posted by SL
The LM2 class has to go, sorry but they don't last and are too slow.

That's my opinion too, but I have to admit that I didn't solve the "privateers" problem : how to enter a "cheap" prototype with still a chance to win something ? That's the reason of the LMP2 to be...

[Wout]

Is a LMP2 cheaper to run than a GTS?

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
How many people will show up without a race to distract them from their partying? We may see a record crowd. Should we give it a try one of these days? The drivers will have all the time in the world to join in the fun, have a few beers with the fans, and tell their stories of how it used to be when there was a race.

No wait, there won't be any drivers. They will have to earn a living, in America, or in F1. But, who will notice! It's not a race anyhow.

Sorry Cy but its all to easy to be cynical about Le Mans when you don't have the passion for it that others do. Get cynical about F1, its an awful lot easier.

Le Mans can survive on heritage only. It has done so before and it'll do so again. Its still the most important event in sportscar racing, for teams, drivers, factories and most sportscar followers and I see no reason why it won't continue to be, no matter how much of a cock-up the ACO make of the entry and no matter how some individuals may knock it. Le Mans doesn't need the Bernie and Max show - God forbid.

[cybersdorf]

Heritage wears thin over the decades, and needs to be added to. Can you imagine anyone 30 years from now reminiscing about the Glorious '90s, and the days of the Audi? Or maybe about the fun they had camping and boozing and barbecuing.

It is still the most important event (except if you ask the GrandAm faction), in a sport that is becoming less important every year, with every new - as you put it - cock-up. But, if you say everything is fine then I am confident you are right.

I am worried about where LM is headed but then, I guess I'm just not a sportscar fan, right.

[kdr]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
It is still the most important event (except if you ask the GrandAm faction), in a sport that is becoming less important every year, with every new - as you put it - cock-up. But, if you say everything is fine then I am confident you are right.

in my short span of interest(1998 to today)even i've noticed the cyclical nature of sportcars importance. in my time we've had the abundance of manufacturer teams in 1999, thru to the lack of manufacturer teams this year(yet strangely the extremes of these two years have provided the two best races i've seen. :confused: )...and now we seem to be looking a few years down the line at a return of the likes of porsche, lambo, aston martin...in some form or other.

i'm also strangely happy with the fact that any "cock ups" the aco may make...pale into insignificance when compared with the almost daily cock ups made in f1. i think sportscar racing can only(and is)benefitting from this.

[Mal]

I actually think LeMans and Sportscar racing are on the up rather than decline. Especially with the advent of LMES which will hopefully develop into a very succesful series. I would also not be surprised to see the manufacturers returning in the next few years including some of those currently spending fortunes in F1.
It may be no coincidence that at the same Time Aston Martin (Ford owned) are coming back to LeMans, Jaguar (Ford owned) are making noises about leaving.

[Nordic]

Can you imagine anyone 30 years from now reminiscing about the Glorious '90s, and the days of the Audi?

In thirty years I bet more people will recongnise the importace and want to see an Audi, Bentley, Panoz, Toyota GTone or pretty much any sports car from this era and those before and still to come, than the 99 Benneton, Williams or Ferrari F1 car or the latest Vaxhall astra, Alfa BMW touring cars.

If you go to any historic meeting like this weekends Goodwood meeting, the crowds surrounding the E types, 250GTO, 917's, GT40's, 936, Mirages, Grp 5 supercars are far greater than those round anything but the current F1 cars.

That to my mind is why sportscar & LM are so special, it creates the heros, car,driver and team owners that stick in the mind and become the stuff of legands far more than who won the 78 F1 drivers champs or the 95BTCC.