Vancouver Raceway

[atomik99]

Still very rough at this point. Just looking for any comments or critiques at this early stage. Right now it is 4.5km (2.8 mi).

Drag strip is the diagonal purple line (starts at T8).

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Things to consider include the return lane from the end of the Drag strip, also the pit complex and access to the start area of the drag strip.

Luiggispeed will also no doubt comment on the use of the second half of the drag strip as part of the track.

General shape, for me would indicate an infield pit lane, so pushing the S/F straight further to the top of the drawing, with the pits between the S/F and T4/5 and T10/11 sections.

[atomik99]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

Things to consider include the return lane from the end of the Drag strip, also the pit complex and access to the start area of the drag strip.

The proximity of the pit and the drag start is definitely an issue (and drag finish for that matter). Thanks for bringing it to my attention

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

General shape, for me would indicate an infield pit lane, so pushing the S/F straight further to the top of the drawing, with the pits between the S/F and T4/5 and T10/11 sections.

I've been watching the races at Sonoma this weekend, and I borrowed the idea of having the front stretch grandstands behind the pit lane, with the paddock area beside and behind that grandstand. Less access for crews and drivers, but better vantage for spectators. Therefore, similar to that idea, my paddock area would be behind the grandstands at the top of that image.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by atomik99

I've been watching the races at Sonoma this weekend, and I borrowed the idea of having the front stretch grandstands behind the pit lane, with the paddock area beside and behind that grandstand. Less access for crews and drivers, but better vantage for spectators. Therefore, similar to that idea, my paddock area would be behind the grandstands at the top of that image.

My reason for mentioning it was because of your pitlane exit placement. It currently exits into the racing line.

Here's a quick and very rough edit of what might work better, as I suggested in my first response...
You could still have grandstands looking down into the pits. Or low pit buildings with a big grandstand on the outside that looks over the pit buildings to the back of the course

[matarleton]

Which direction is the roadcourse running?

Also, what is the estimated distance between T5 and T10? It seems like too much track crammed into a small area if I am judging size correctly by the dragstrip. I am assuming that the tan areas are gravel traps. Good for stopping cars and also getting cars stuck. Everytime someone spins off you will have a full course caution for vehicle removal and a lengthy one at that.

Just a critique.

Matt

[LuiggiSpeed]

Doesn't seem to be a problem there for as long as they are not runing simultaneous (duh!). The point brought up by SBF is law, pit exit was not perfect. I like the track layout, very cool,with most corner situations covered and a fair balance between lefts and rights, so it fits the parameters I care about pretty good. Assuming a 1/4 mile drag strip, you main straights would be around 400-450 mts long, good for me but some others would be left starving for more top speed.

You used the good part of the drag strip for the course and did not entered the byte at all, so that part you got it covered,good job!!

Now go back to your PC and amaze us again using that little Adobe Ilustrator of yours!!

[TilkeWannabe]

I like that road course for sure.

A few changes if it were me:
1. Bring turn 4 a bit further away from the S/F straight because I'd have a medium-sized grandstand in the space there.

2. Not have the drag strip at all. No offence.

3. Change turn 12 to make it longer to keep the speed and flow up to turn 13.

4. Have the track go in both directions. The pit lane seems to be on the wrong side.

5. Make turn 1 a left-hander so to help the track go in both directions to that the pit lane won't be on the wrong side.

I think that makes sense.

TW

[atomik99]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

My reason for mentioning it was because of your pitlane exit placement. It currently exits into the racing line.

Here's a quick and very rough edit of what might work better, as I suggested in my first response...
You could still have grandstands looking down into the pits. Or low pit buildings with a big grandstand on the outside that looks over the pit buildings to the back of the course

Aha! Understood now - thanks
Will definitely need to explore that section further.

Originally Posted by matarleton

Which direction is the roadcourse running?

Clockwise.

Originally Posted by matarleton

Also, what is the estimated distance between T5 and T10? It seems like too much track crammed into a small area if I am judging size correctly by the dragstrip.

About 125 metres/400 feet, or so.

Originally Posted by matarleton

I am assuming that the tan areas are gravel traps. Good for stopping cars and also getting cars stuck. Everytime someone spins off you will have a full course caution for vehicle removal and a lengthy one at that.

And good for safety too!

Originally Posted by matarleton

Just a critique.

Much appreciated. Thank you

Originally Posted by LuiggiSpeed

The point brought up by SBF is law, pit exit was not perfect.

Yup, that section needs more exploration for sure.

Originally Posted by LuiggiSpeed

I like the track layout, very cool,with most corner situations covered and a fair balance between lefts and rights, so it fits the parameters I care about pretty good.

Thanks! I may still change a few of the turns a little. Looking at it more and more, I'm starting to dislike how T4/T5 are very similar to T10/T11.

Originally Posted by LuiggiSpeed

Assuming a 1/4 mile drag strip, you main straights would be around 400-450 mts long, good for me but some others would be left starving for more top speed.

Yes, 1/4 mile drag. As you may recall, I don't particularly prefer long straights either, so I thought I would add a few more medium length straights in this one. There are a bunch of straights that about 1/4 mile (give or take a bit).

Originally Posted by LuiggiSpeed

You used the good part of the drag strip for the course and did not entered the byte at all, so that part you got it covered,good job!!

Thanks! I'm not too familiar with drag strip design... does "byte" mean the first 1/4 mile section?

Originally Posted by LuiggiSpeed

Now go back to your PC and amaze us again using that little Adobe Ilustrator of yours!!

hahaha Will probably take a while. I can only work on this stuff when I have free time to spare.

Originally Posted by TilkeWannabe

I like that road course for sure.

Thank ya.

Originally Posted by TilkeWannabe

A few changes if it were me:
1. Bring turn 4 a bit further away from the S/F straight because I'd have a medium-sized grandstand in the space there.

A big goal of mine is to have unobstructed viewpoints for spectators.

Originally Posted by TilkeWannabe

2. Not have the drag strip at all. No offence.

None taken, but the drag strip is the 1st goal I set out to accomplish: to make a circuit that has it and still integrates well into the rest of the track. Easier said then done because it's hard to just place a 3/4 mile strip of road anywhere

Originally Posted by TilkeWannabe

3. Change turn 12 to make it longer to keep the speed and flow up to turn 13.

Thanks for this. I will for sure have to consider alterations at this point to match it with the pit entry section.

Originally Posted by TilkeWannabe

4. Have the track go in both directions. The pit lane seems to be on the wrong side.

5. Make turn 1 a left-hander so to help the track go in both directions to that the pit lane won't be on the wrong side.

A pit lane can be on a "wrong" side?

I thought as long as the pit entry/pit exit integrate well (which mine do not currently) the pit lane can be on any side.

[LuiggiSpeed]

Originally Posted by TilkeWannabe

2. Not have the drag strip at all. No offence.

That would seriously affect economics, most tracks make BIG MONEY operating a drag strip, in fact, drag racing is way more profitable than road racing. Anyone can go, pay the fee and have a few passes,even with your own street car(or mom's car). I see that time and again around here and that's why most track operators totally neglect road racing.

[bio]

Originally Posted by atomik99

A pit lane can be on a "wrong" side?

I thought as long as the pit entry/pit exit integrate well (which mine do not currently) the pit lane can be on any side.

Yep, it can. Not rule-wise, in that respect you're right, it can be on either side of the road. But we tend to say the pitlane is on the wrong side if the pit exit spits out the cars on the racing line. The very rough sule is that the pit exit - and thus the pitlane - should be on the side where T1 goes. If T1 is a right hander the pitlane should be on the right - if T1 is a left hander, the pitlane should be on the left.

But it's really the basic idea and not a general rule.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by bio

Yep, it can. Not rule-wise, in that respect you're right, it can be on either side of the road. But we tend to say the pitlane is on the wrong side if the pit exit spits out the cars on the racing line. The very rough sule is that the pit exit - and thus the pitlane - should be on the side where T1 goes. If T1 is a right hander the pitlane should be on the right - if T1 is a left hander, the pitlane should be on the left.

But it's really the basic idea and not a general rule.

Yeah there can be ways around it, if you look at Luiggispeed's proposal for matarleton's circuit, a very long pit exit.
Basically the pit exit should be on the apex side of the next corner. MagnyCours is the exception to the rule, but makes use of the "don't cross" line on the exit.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by LuiggiSpeed

That would seriously affect economics, most tracks make BIG MONEY operating a drag strip, in fact, drag racing is way more profitable than road racing. Anyone can go, pay the fee and have a few passes,even with your own street car(or mom's car). I see that time and again around here and that's why most track operators totally neglect road racing.

I'd have to say that making money from a drag strip is dependant on where you are in the world, and the racing culture there.
In Europe there is a fairly specific following for Drag racing but it's nothing compared to the NHRA following in the US/North America.
More likely in Britain at the moment, Junior would more likely go and run his hot-hatch car around a road course at track day events.

[atomik99]

What do you guys think of this for the pit exit area:



(The orange lines breaking up the road means that that section would actually be about 100 metres (320 feet) longer. I just cut it out to save image space for this example.)

I also moved the drag strip to the "north east" section of the layout to have easier access to/from the paddock area.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Yup that type of pit exit works, what I'd say is to get it as close to the in this case the second apex of the chicane as safety allows, this allows the "don't cross" line to be short enough to allow cars/bikes to regain the racing line for the next corner, assuming no other traffic.

Rather than move the drag strip, a secondary paddock works just as well. When the drag strip isn't being used, it doubles as VIP car parking or Corporate areas.

[Mr Pink]

Just minor input about the critic for integrating the dragstrip in the roadcourse,

It seems to work pretty good at Mantorp Park where they use most of the strip. I'm not shure but I think they it after every dragracing event to get rid of the worst glue (or what you call it in english)

[atomik99]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

Yup that type of pit exit works, what I'd say is to get it as close to the in this case the second apex of the chicane as safety allows, this allows the "don't cross" line to be short enough to allow cars/bikes to regain the racing line for the next corner, assuming no other traffic.

Read this a few times, but I can't quite understand exactly what you mean. Are you saying to keep the chicane further away from "don't cross" line?

[ScotsBrutesFan]

What I was trying to say was to keep the pitlane exit as close to the chicane as possible. That way the don't cut line doen't then extend too far keeping drivers off the racing line for longer than is necessary.

For example, depending on scale and safety requirements etc, the pit exit on the chicane example could be as shown with the "don't cut" line ending at the point where you have your pit exit.

[TilkeWannabe]

Bio took the words out of my "mouth" as it were. That's why I chose to say make the 1st corner a left-hander so that cars aren't running into each other as one comes out of pit lane and another taking the racing line for the 1st corner.

[atomik99]

It's gone through some alterations... probably the biggest being the move of the pit lane to the inside.

Comments and criticisms please

Also, the section I outlined: how many turns would you say this section has?

[ScotsBrutesFan]

In terms of the new pit placement, I'd say that it's a huge improvement. The offset paddock is a good comprimise.

I would say though that the circuit has lost something from the original by squaring both sections of the infield.

Perhaps a sweeper into the first infield, with the square double left hander, and for the seond infield section make the entry into an extended esses of sorts with the hairping closer to the final corner.

A final personal touch on my part is to make T1 an overtaking place, with Grandstands on the outside of the corner. Likewise a grandstand on the final corner that offers a partial view of the pit, but also the whole of the second part of the infield.

Those are just my thoughts and may not work with what you had in mind.

[atomik99]

Thanks for the suggestions ScotsBrutesFan. I definitely like most of them

I'll keep T1 as an easy gradual turn to actually eliminate some passing opportunity there. Unlike my previous track (Ottawa), I want to try to avoid having spectators view the race over the paddock, so that section is purposely done to be... for lack of a better word... boring.
Instead, I will try to add more passing opportunity in prime spectator viewing areas (currently T4, 5, 11, 12 for the main grandstand, and, T3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 for the "south" stands). Is there anything I can modify on atleast some of these sections to increase passing opportunity?

Also, as you can see, I implemented much of your ideas for the infield sections. They really give it a better feel.
I may also add stands at T14... not sure yet.

A safety related question: The runoff area above T4 is about 37 metres (120 feet) to the wall. Will this be enough room for safety, assuming a F1 car is driving fast from T2, through the T3 section?

[matarleton]

May I make a few suggestions from an economic standpoint...

One Tunnel. Two is overkill unless you plan on one being an entry and one an exit. Still, alot of cash wasted on an additional tunnel.

Take the money you save by not doing two tunnels and put it towards doing the dragstrip separate from the road course. If the space is available, do them separate. Your roadcourse and drag strip are already sharing very little and your previous design with the pits and paddock on the outside could have allowed for a paddock between the roadcourse and dragstrip without even having to have a tunnel.

Its all economic.

Matt

[atomik99]

Originally Posted by matarleton

May I make a few suggestions from an economic standpoint...

One Tunnel. Two is overkill unless you plan on one being an entry and one an exit. Still, alot of cash wasted on an additional tunnel.

Yes, you're right. I will probably replace one of them with a pedestrian bridge.

Originally Posted by matarleton

Take the money you save by not doing two tunnels and put it towards doing the dragstrip separate from the road course. If the space is available, do them separate. ...

Well they do share almost a quarter mile of road, and they share 2 big grandstands (the "south" stands would be used for road course events and drag events).

Originally Posted by matarleton

Its all economic.

Not for me, because this is all just fantasy for me
If I ever design a circuit for a real business proposal, than money will definitely play a bigger part. But nonetheless, it would seem to me that what this circuit shares (quarter-mile section of road and 2 grandstands) would still be a money saver.

Thanks for the comments!

[matarleton]

Well, its good to fantasize. I can assure you that the revenue differences of having them separate would become realized if it were ever to be built (I know thats not the plan).

Matt

[matarleton]

Originally Posted by atomik99

If I ever design a circuit for a real business proposal, than money will definitely play a bigger part. But nonetheless, it would seem to me that what this circuit shares (quarter-mile section of road and 2 grandstands) would still be a money saver.

Thanks for the comments!

Since I have been working on the construction of a new track in the US, I can tell you that the differences in cost do not outweigh the revenue. Moroso in Florida is undergoing a total track remodel and redesign. Eventhough the track was shortened by removing the dragstrip and making it separate, their main limitation was land size. Separating the drag from roadcourse seemed to be important to them and after my time in the business, I know why.

Nevertheless, it is a good exercise to do designs because it makes you more aware of your current tracks you run on, your ideas and thoughts of "nirvana" and also your understanding of the track design process in general.

Matt