Jag's biggest miscalculation

[Neil C]

In another thread, Regs states:

"Jaguar have stated that they wish to become the "Anglo Ferrari", of sorts, with passionate fans waving seas of green flags in full grandstands. And I'd love to see it too. The question is, does Jaguar, and by extension Ford, have the patience to put in the years, yes, years it takes to do Jaguars legend justice?"

It follows a discussion of the fact that Jaguar has failed to win on the track and failed in its marketing strategy, many believe due to the fact that the "suits" have taken over.

IMO, there is another factor. If Jaguar is misguided in thinking it can become the "Anglo Ferrari", it is because it has missed a crucial difference between its potential fan base and the Tifosi.

I never hear Ferrari fans complaining that Ferrari is owned by Fiat. Nor did they abandon their "red religion" during the 80's and 90's when they had little to cheer about.

Regs is correct in asking if Ford/Jag has what it takes to stick it out for the long run. But by what I've seen so far, they are being much more patient and focused on the long term than most of their fans. Perhaps Brit fans have an embarassment of riches. It's too easy to switch loyalties when we are not instantly gratified. Williams in the tank? Well, there's Jordan. Jaguar not getting it done for you? Then declare for McLaren.

A couple months ago, support for DC in these forums was greeted with laughs and jeers, now he's the second coming of Jimmy Clark, at least for now.

You cant say that about the Tifosi, they love their team, they love their drivers, come hell or high water. If Jaguar has miscalculated in their bid to become the British national team, it's because there does not exist a sense that a national team is needed. What if they dont win right away? We want to support a winner!

I share Regs concern that Jaguar needs to build a tradition in F1, they cant buy it. But if there is undue pressure to show immediate results, it comes from us, the racing fan, not the mahoghany lined offices and the bean counters within.

Go Jaguar!

[Murph]

Excellent post their Neil!

Is it possible that the fact that a lot of the "suits" happen to be Yanks (and that the Jaguar "chain of command" crosses the pond to exotic Dearborne Michigan) also raises some questions about Jaguar becoming the "Anglo-Ferrari" in the minds of British f1 fans? I am not suggesting that this is a problem for Jaguar..........just curious?

take care all & happy 4th of July

Murph

[Minardi fan]

Despite what they say, the British team will always be seen as Jordan.

[RIKB]

I dunno whether Jordan is seen as the British team but they are the underdog who has made good, something that will always appeal to the British race fan.

THE British team? McLaren is the most successful, Williams have brought home the bacon more times than enough! Tyrrell were probably the team up until they became BAR.

[SL]

The answer is not in the results, more in the reputations of the two companies.

If you won the lottery would you buy a Jag ? Probably not unless it was a second or third car, no it would be a probably be a Ferrari, Masarati, Labo, Rolls or Aston, a dream car. That is what the Tifosi cheer, a brand not a drivor or a model. The thought that Ferrari is the dream car of most of the worlds population.

How did they get this, simple, just spend years & years racing, winning and generaly being there. You also need a road car range that lives up to the race car image. Do you give an envious glance at a Jag as you pass it on the M25, probably not. A Ferrari (or McLaren F1) on the other hand with a rich sun tanned driver and 'factory fitted' long haired blonde gets the envious glance, even if it is doing 35 and causing a traffic jam.

Jag need to get a top, top of the range road car that can compete with the best. Once that is established they might see a BRG flag waving grandstand.

Please prove me wrong as I am getting upset seeing a once proud racing name tarnished in the manner it is at the moment. I would rather it be named as a Ford Mondeo GTI.

Simon

[Schume]

To my mind Tyrell were always The British Team.
They always stood for what was fair and correct in terms of F1 as a sport.
Ok, so ultimately it was their downfall, but a lot of people owe Ken Tyrell a lot of thanks for the way he conducted things.

Have a look at the Surviving F1 video and you will see what I mean.

Jaguar will never be the British Team, unless Fantasy F1 counts in the WDC.
I've never seen these massed ranks of Jaguar Fans anywhere either.

The best supported team by far is Ferrari, and probably always will be. Through good and bad years the Tifosi are always there in numbers all around the world.
Funny how no other team has such support.
McLaren fans are invisible.

[Minardi fan]

The amassed Jaguar fans were never going to happen - despite the teams efforts to flog merchandise at every possible moment and forgetting to do a bit of work on the car...

Jordan are the British team, and will remain so. Jaguar are too cold, too business-like. Jordan are, as you say, the underdog who has come good and is now up at the top. They're in it to race, and have some fun.

GO FRENTZEN!!!! YAYAYAYAYAY!

[Unknown Soldier]

Originally posted by Minardi fan
Jaguar are too cold, too business-like.

Perhaps they a Eddie Jordan type to set them straight

[bondibill]

Didn't Jaguar have the ideal figurehead in Jackie Stewart? Ok, so tartan doen't exactly match Jaguar's profile (imagine a JYS special S Type with tartan trim!), but he is an ex-champ, had led the team to (a lucky) victory in it's previous guise, and isn't afraid of a little controversy.

Come back Jackie and help to build the legend! Jaguar being competitive can only be good for F1.

[Neil C]

Originally posted by Minardi fan
The amassed Jaguar fans were never going to happen - despite the teams efforts to flog merchandise at every possible moment and forgetting to do a bit of work on the car...

I agree with the first part, although I have to rely on your reports that Jaguar is on a merchandising blitz. There's little of that here in the US.

However, you second point about not doing a little work on the car...quite the opposite is true. Neil Ressler made a conscious decision to design, engineer and manufacture ALL components at Jaguar, retaining little or none of Stewart/Ford. This was done in order to empower the guys at Milton Keynes and to give them the sense that this was really Jaguar through and through. This has led to all sorts of development problems with components that should have been taken for granted, like oil delivery systems. So the problem they are having is from doing too much work on the car, not too little.

SL, what you say about the image of Jags vs Ferrari street cars may be true over there, but I can tell you, having had experience with both, a Ferrari may be everyones dream car, but given the reality of owning and maintaining one, few have the patience, time or money. Jaguar, on the other hand, has come lightyears from their old image of unreliablity and dowdy design. Here in Detroit, the Jag V8 roadsters and the S-types are what the trendy country-club set are driving, and they are turning heads in a town accustomed to flashy wheels.

Murph, I am sure part of the resentment of Jaguar has to do with American ownership, but, it has been that ownership that has helped Jaguar to survive and thrive as a luxury/sport automaker, AND, along with the US Grand Prix, will help bring F1 back to the US. I hope for Jaguar to be seen as an American/British partnership. If there is bitterness and resentment, I guess that's the problem of those who are bitter and resentful. I'm here to have fun and they arent going to ruin it for me.

Go Jaguar!

[TimD]

Originally posted by Schume

I've never seen these massed ranks of Jaguar Fans anywhere either.

Schume (and others), hie thee at once to thy nearest video stockist and find a tape of Le Mans from about 1987 onwards. You bet there are Jag fans out there - but they're all still going to the sports car races, and they're still wearing their faded 12-year old Silk Cut tee-shirts to the meetings even now.

If Ford miscalculated, it was in underestimating the gulf between these two premier motor sport disciplines.

Got to agree with you about Tyrrell, though. I remember Jackie Stewart being interviewed and saying that Ken Tyrrell was such an arch Brit that Jackie suspected him of wearing Union Jack underpants and pyjamas.

F1 has never quite been the same for me since Tyrrell departed.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by SL

Jag need to get a top, top of the range road car that can compete with the best. Once that is established they might see a BRG flag waving grandstand.

Sorry about being slightly late to the conversation here! Re the above, isn't that what the XJ220 was meant to be?! Shame they only sold about 3 ever...

[Mr.S]

A top of the line road car to fall in love with? The XK180! Now what I don’t understand is why they didn't build it, they actually got blank checks (is that how you spell it?) from people, but they said no. Maybe they thought that it would bump up against Aston Martin.

If they want to go against Ferrari in image they have to win, not McLaren style winning. But heroically and with style, they need Eddie Jordan.

[Regs]

Michael C makes a good point with the XJ220. Those are just the sort of cars that stir the imagination and fire the heart in the same manner that a Ferrari does. And they should have went into limited production with it(maybe 100 per year). And Jag do come up with great designs and concepts. They parade them out, get everybody worked up and then tell us they're probably not going to make it afterall! XJ220 being a case in point. Jag have a great classic styled two seater making the rounds of magazine covers lately and after much specualtion I heard they may not make it afterall! I may be wrong but that's what I heard. Neil C. makes a great point of the fickleness of fans these days. Neil also pointed out that Ford/Jag seem focused on the long haul. And as long as they keep the suits out and the engineers in charge then their F1 effort has a real shot. But in this day and age of the bottom line above all else, if Jag aren't at the front of the grid on a regular basis with in five years they'll kill this thing, in my opinion. And deal with the loss of face. Being in F1 is not enough. You have to win it. As Mr.S pointed out, win in heroic style. But are the days of Fangioesque wins against all odds a thing of the past? You just don't seem to see people coming back from three laps down anymore, driving the wheels off the car, throwing it around the corners, risking it all and overcoming time and machinery by sheer force of will(a'la Tasio Nuvolari say.). These days if you're three laps down you're done. And winning seems like a fairly matter of fact affair, very business like and usually well established at the end with a couple of seconds seperating the leader from No.two. As for Jordan, there's no question they're a team with personality. McLaren seem to me to be very cold and corporate. Ferrari, by the way, seem to appeal to fans of all nationalities. Personally I don't see Ferrari as the Italian National team. They're Ferrari, an entity unto themselves who's appeal seems to transend national boundries. But I won't argue that they're being Italian certinly plays into thier mystique.

[Mr.S]

The reason that there is Tifosi is because they grew up around Ferrari winning and like I said heroicly. They grew up with the great Ferrari they were beautiful sexy and they inspired something in you that made you crazy. Even the name, Ferrari, just something about it.

I would know because I am BMW's equivalent of Tifosi. They like Ferrari have a soul to me. When some one says something against my marque, I serously get ****ed. When BMW wins at something it gives me a warm and tingly feeling inside, it makes me ... um never mind.

It's gonna take Jaguar alot of time and effort before they can achieve what they want. And they aren't going to do it, but who knows, give them fifty years.

[Clement]

sorry but when did Jordan become a british team. I can't remember ever seeing a Union Jack fly above their wins...

[Valve Bounce]

Lets face it, nobody will want to look at Minardi as representing Italy - in this regard, everyone looks on Ferrari as THE Italian team, even though, through the years, we have had a few other less successful cars like Alpha, ATS, and so on. However, the grid is full of British teams, and for Jaguar to assume to represent Britain just because they are painted green is somewhat optimistic. They will not win over established fans of Williams, McLaren, Jordan, BAR, and so on. I know Benneton has an Italian name, but I think they are based in England. Even when BRM tried to be THE British team, they did not win over Lotus, Cooper, and Walker supporters.

[Minardi fan]

No, the Union Jack does not fly above them when they win, yet still they hold the place of 'the British team'.

And of course, MY Italian team is Minardi...

[Neil C]

I think an excellent point is being made here.

Every so often, a sports team in the US will proclaim itself to be "America's Team"; Dallas Cowboys, Atlanta Braves, etc. Doing that is the best way to assure that I will never be a fan of that team.

With the exception of Ferrari (and Minardi Man might even dispute that), it is pretentious and presumptuous to assume you can be "The Nation's Team" just by declaring yourself so.

Could this be the reason we are seeing a bit of backlash to Jaguars strategy?

Welcome, Valve Bounce. Excellent name. But we need to find you a mate by the name of "Stronger Valve Springs".

[EERO]

Mr. S. made the point that Ferrari developed such a great following because they won for years-in reality, they had long dry spells between the wins but what was obvious was the passion with which they went racing.
Though I would like to throw myself behind Jag- I haven't seen enough of that passion yet. I'm sure it is there in spades, but the marketing frenzy is what we get. As obvious as it seems to state this, its going to take time to establish a tradition.

Also, quite simply from a design standpoint, the merchandise is hideous. I have a Jag Hat which I could barely bring myself to wear and bought a tee mailorder that is such an ugly color and design that I gave it away.
No Schumacher Fan I, but the "Deutsche Vermogensberatung" hat of TGF that I bought for my son is, as we say in Massachusetts, way coolah.

Quite simply, Jaguar IS in it for the long haul, and once the results improve, the fans will follow.

Also I would like to credit Irvine, whom I really don't like very much, for showing tons of grit and gumption-his perseverance in the face of the German/Italian onslaught is very "Battle of Britain"

[Regs]

I agree that on Jaguar's race team the long haul commitment is there. And if Jag start posting results, they'll have a future. But my concern is this, it's a corporate team. Some teams could survive through the long haul, like Tyrell, Lotus, Jordan and Minardi, say, due to the fact they are owned by people who are commited to racing. Racing is in their blood. And they'd always find a way. Just read Jackie Stewarts "Faster", he tells of Ken Tyrells struggles for sponsorship. But the team was his. He always found a way. And he was in it for the racing. The controlling elements at Jag are not racers as much as corporate people who justify racing as either R&D or marketing or both. The boss is an appointee who can be plugged in or out as seen fit. Corporations are too bottom line oriented, in my opinion, and I've never heard of a "corporate passion". Ford, in its quest for world dominence also runs the risk of overextending itself, and programs like racing risk being labeled indulgences rather than development by angry stock holders. Especially a high cost program like F1. Thats why I liked it as Stewart racing, if Ford ever had to bail, we wouldn't lose Team Stewart in the process. He'd find a way, and the tradition would live on.

[Valve Bounce]

G'Day Neil. Thanks for the welcome. At this point, I would like to ask you guys which team you consider to be the closest to the idea of the British team at present. I used to think Lotus was, but that was becasue I liked the drivers. BRM for sure. But these once great teams are long gone. Jordan is Irish, McLaren is a mixture now buy Bruce wasn't British, Williams comes to mind as being very close and is probably the one I think of, Jaguar used to be Scottish with Stewart although they are painted geen now, BAR with its American cigarettes label seems far from my idea of the British team,...... Honestly, I can't think of any present day team as being THE British team. Not in the same way we think of Ferrari as THE representative of Italy.

[Murph]

Even a moron like me recognizes that England is the home to F1….. most of the teams are located there, large numbers of the engineers, mechanics, team managers, and other essentials to F1 are English or live in England, and the UK has given us some of the greatest drivers during the 50 years of the F1 World Championships….Clark, Stewart, Hill (Graham), Moss, and Mansell. What “modern” F1 team then is the heir apparent to Lotus and Tyrrell as the “Anglo-Ferrari”?
I can think of 4 “criteria” that can be used to help separate the pretenders to the throne….
#1: LOCATION: factory located in England
#2: TEAM ORIGINS/HISTORY: British origin?
#3: CURRENT OWNERSHIP:
#4: ENGINE:

Let’s give the criteria a spin…. Using the criteria......is Ferrari the Italian Team?
#1: Located in Italy
#2: Roots go back to Alfa Romeo…. And then there is Enzo….
#3: Owned by FIAT
#4: Built in-house.
Result is pretty clear….. Ferrari meets all 4 criteria

Now lets look at the pretenders to the “Anglo-Ferrari” throne…… Jordan, Benetton, McLaren, Williams Arrows, BAR, and Jaguar. Obviously all 7 teams meet criteria #1…..

JORDAN
#2/3: Eddie Jordan is IRISH. Team has existed since 1991
#4: Jordan will have works Honda engines in 2001 and currently uses Mugen-Honda engines.
Has used engines from Ford & Peugeot.
Result…. Jordan only meets 1 of the 4 criteria.

BENETTON:
#2: Roots go back to the Toleman Team…. Benetton originated in 1986
#3: Has been purchased by Renault
#4: Will have works Renault engines….currently uses Supertec. Has used BMW, Ford, and Renault
engines in the past.
Result …. Benetton meets 2 of the criteria.

McLAREN:
#2: Kiwi team located in England since 1966
#3: Ron Dennis has controlled since early 80’s…also owned by Mercedes and Mansour Oljeh (TAG)
#4: Mercedes (Illmor Engines)….. have used Ford, Honda, and Peugeot engines in the past
Result…. McLaren meets 3 of the 4 criteria

WILLIAMS:
#2/3: Frank Williams & Patrick Head….. as English as one can be.
#4: BMW works engines. Williams has used Ford, Honda, Judd, Renault, and Supertec engines in the
past.
Result…… Williams meets 3 of the 4 criteria.

ARROWS:
#2: Jackie Oliver.. broke from Shadow in 1978
#3: Tom Walkinshaw
#4: Supertec engines……. Have used Ford & BMW engines in the past
Result… Arrows meets 3 of the 4 criteria

BAR:
#2: Bought Tyrrell….
#3: hmmmmmm. Pollack, Reynard, JV, BAT….
#4: works Honda engines….. used Supertec last year
Results……. BAR meets 3 of the 4 criteria.

JAGUAR:
#2: Took over Stewart
#3: Ford …. Which created Stewart in the first place.
#4: Ford engines….
Result……Jaguar meets 3 of the 4 criteria…

Soooooo.. in adding up the “points”…
1st: McLaren, Williams, Arrows, BAR, & Jaguar all scored 3 of 4.
6th: Benetton scored 2 of 4
7th: Jordan scored 1 of 4…..

Of those tied for first…… where does “passion” come into play? Those who love Ferrari love it with a passion…. As do those that hate Ferrari. To me the word “passion” and Williams or McLaren do not go hand in hand…. They are by far the most professionally run teams in F1 (and yes....I am a “tifosi”)…. “passion” and Jaguar though, might be a perfect fit, but that will take a lot of time,, success, and luck. IMHO… I see WILLIAMS as the heir to Lotus & Tyrrell as the true “English Team”…. But I am not sure just how much of Williams that BMW owns.

I apologize now for any “info” mistakes I have made. I did this off the top of my head so it will suffer from sloppiness on my part…. And I have already stated that I am a moron…………

Take care all

Murph

[TimD]

Murph, you are totally mistaken on one fundamental point.

You're no moron, my friend.

[bondibill]

"Passion", good point Murph.

And passion need not come from producing winning results, afterall who doesn't love the underdog. Look at Minardi Fan. Maybe there's hope for Jaguar yet.