Was the Caddy that bad in 2000?

[H16]

EVERYONE knows my opinion on the ill-managed, total joke of a program that GM tried to run for three years then pulled out,having "accomplished" what they set out to do.

Rewind back to 2000 and the R&S Caddy. I know the car suffered from a lack of stiffness but my question is: Was the car really that bad? The engine itself was not powerful enough and I have always felt that the Pirelli's were way off the pace of the Michelins.

OK, it was not a world beater but I think R&S got the blame instead of placing it on an underpowered engine and bad tires.

[MulsanneMike]

Lack of chassis stiffness is news to me. As the guy who laid-up tubs 1-6, I never once heard of any issues regarding tub or chassis flex. If anything, the one change made to the layup schedule was to reduce the number of laminates looking for a reduction in weight. Now the Reynard 2KQ, that flexed like a pig...Frankly my opinion is a brief one on the the subject. GM simply wasn't spending the money and R&S was making due where it could. I cite one simply observation, in the year and a half that I worked for R&S, never did I see any improvements to physical plant, machine tools, etc. If GM was spending the amounts that Audi was, R&S would have had a new factory and nice new facilities. Ultimately the lack of performance probably came down to a gutless engine. When the first block was shipped to R&S for chassis installation and test fitting, it had "Oldsmobile" on the cam cover, that is, the block was identical to the IRL programs. This wasn't a purpose built Cadillac or GM powerplant, it was a GM "lets see what we can use in the present inventory" make due. The composite shop had to make carbon covers to go over the Oldsmobile should any press get a peak into the engine bay during the first shake down at Putnam. And never mention the Cadillac grill/intake to anyone at R&S. GM insisted on having a functioning yet aesthtic product identity grill. That was how you were going to tell it was a Cadillac. Now the grill didn't hurt the performance of the car in the long run, but the arguments over it were so heated, in the end it was clear where GM's priorities were and where they weren't. And if anyone saw the grills after an endurance race and noticed how chewed up they were from rocks and debris...

[H16]

During the broadcast of the Petite Le Mans, there was a comment that "Two years ago Wayne was complaining about the car not being stiff enough" or something like that.

[MulsanneMike]

Yeah I really can't comment on that. I don't recall that being an issue.

[Rhino]

I'd agree the engine was a pig, i once talked to a chap from Mclaren who had worked on it and he claimed it was a boat anchor!!

[veeten]

just another grand example of GM's ineptness when it comes to anything other than the Corvette or Stock Cars in racing.

If Ford had only done a total modernisation of the GT40 Mk IV to ACO/ALMS specs, we would've seen what a REAL prototype program can do... just dreaming, I guess.

[Russfeld]

Now you see the difference between companies who go racing to sell cars, and companies who go racing to win.

[cybersdorf]

The funny thing is, Porsche always went racing to sell cars, so did Ferrari...

[H16]

In Ferrari's early days, they sold cars so they could race. Porsche do sell cars and also sell lots of racing cars.

GM go racing so they can use it in TV commericals.

[deloreanboy]

but realy this is all classic GM---the Caddy just starts getting good last year with the 02---saw some really competitive drives, but as soon as it gets good they kill it. just wait til the prodrive ferraris blow the doors off of the C5-R, theyll be done with that program by 04, guarandamnteed.

[gttouring]

with rumors of the new northstar-possible a 12 cylinder as thhe Cien or a 16 cylinder from one of the concepts it looks as if caddy will come back-the idea of a GM front row in GTS and Prototypes is mothwatering to the rumor mongers i had heard- i recall hearing something about the Cadillacs being sold as privateers, or Gm was going back on ther "it's over" idea

[IanGrohse]

I really loved the way the early Cadilacs looked, with their simplicity and the functioning front grill and everything. I was really pretty unimpressed with the last Calilac LMPs, not that they were bad looking, but that they just kinda cloned the typacle LMP trends of today.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by IanGrohse
....not that they were bad looking, but that they just kinda cloned the typacle LMP trends of today.

And the very sad thing is that is still did them no good. They couldn't even copy well!!

[paul-collins]

Not true, Ayse. The only thing they didn't copy was the engine, and it was still an XT running in a Pentium world.

deloreanboy, there was a good interview on dailysportscar with Doug Fehan that has Corvette looking 5 years and more into the future, racing the C6... Their program is one of those "racing improves the breed" types. I think when the 550s sort their endurance (and PLM was quite the exclamation point) and Saleen get their restrictions lifted, it'll cause Corvette to up their game - not pull out.

[veeten]

... that, and also the competitor that was it's aim from the very begining, the Chrysler/Dodge Viper GTS. I wouldn't be surprised if the coupe version is once again greeted with a racing chassis, ready to go, by the '04-'05 season.

[deloreanboy]

well thank god for that

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by gttouring
i recall hearing something about the Cadillacs being sold as privateers, or Gm was going back on ther "it's over" idea

Those were just rumours. As I recall, the GM Gods have made it clear that the LMP02 will not race again, ever.
Shame about the chassis.

[LouisTheShark]

I think the demise of the Cadillac program can be attributed to a number of factors:

1. bad timing
2. bad luck
3. economic realities

When Caddilac envisioned the project, the LMP class was nothing more than the WSC rule set. At that time it didn't take extreme rocket science to develop a car that could compete and R&S seemed the right partner as their MK III was performing very well.

When in 1999 BMW took advantage of some newly defined rules in the LMP class, it changed the LMP world. Audi went to Le Mans in 99 testing a coupe and an open cockpit car, but they were looking for the right package. While R&S was still drawing up the car, Audi was racing and gaining experience to design design a brand new car. Caddilac wanted to run the Rolex 24 in 2000 for marketing and testing reasons. They had to go out and learn too, but the rules for Grand American were slighly different than the ACO. Grand American was staying with the WSC package, while the ACO had changed the rules to form the LMP rules. Now R&S had to build a car to fit the Grand American rules, but with an eye to improvement for the ACO specs. The Grand American rules were also the rules still in use by the FIA sports car series and Caddilacs run by the french DAMS team did compete in the FIA series. Again, gaining more knowledge in a series that does not run by the same rules as the ACO. If the ACO did not change the WSC rules, Cadillac's plan could have been brilliant.

It's also obvious the program was never designed to be a high dollar expenditure. It was seen as a small program to attract European consumers to the brand and develop a sporty image for the U.S. market. GM spent more money on ads, so it seems, then they did on development.

I don't think R&S can be faulted here. They were given parameters to work within and the circumstances made it almost impossible. At the end of 2000, something had to change, and for GM to save face, I think R&S became the fall guy. Nigel Stroud had some winning history at Le Mans and I think he convinced GM they could win at Le Mans but it would require additional funding. I think GM gave him more support and free reign. I also think there was a lot of hope that Audi would not be back in 2002 and by building a brand new car, Cadillac could become a winner in 2002. Le Mans was getting a little more play at home too and a win could be marketed to help Cadillac's new planned sports cars.

Then 9/11 happened and it turned the world around. The economy went south and all major corporations had to take a long hard look at expenditures. However, with the new car in development, it just did not make sense to cut the project now, especially, if a win was possible. Although, Audi committed to Le Mans for 2002, the new car showed so much promise that some believed it could beat Audi. Sebring validated the faith in the program and a Le Mans victory was not out of the question.

Well, 2002 Le Mans was a failure. Being outclassed not only by Audi, but also by privateers & small manufacturers such as Dome and Oreca. The dissapointment of Le Mans left a bad taste at GM. The economy was continuing to be a problem, and why continue with a program that just seemed cursed. Running a few ALMS races at least provided some marketing for the program but that was just some cheap and easy publicity.

GM had a successful Corvette program for Le Mans and the ALMS, and why continue with a program where no one could really forsee the ultimate prize. Why think the program could win in 2003, even if Audi wouldn't show at Le Mans? The axe fell!

Wayne Taylor thought he could find outside sponsorship and convince Cadillac to allow him to continue running the cars. But that was a hopeless dream. Whatever he could find would only be a fraction of what GM had committed. GM saw no upside to allow Taylor to run the cars. If the car won, GM would look bad because it abandoned the program. And if the car continued to flounder, which it likely would with limited funding, GM would also look bad. There was no way to spin this in a positive. This was one of these rare situations where they were damned both ways. The best possibly scenario was to eliminate the program, take the heat for a couple months, and be done with it.

The Cadillac LMP cars will be museum pieces somewhere and I don't think we'll see another Cadillac LMP anytime soon.

[Lee Janotta]

Nah... It comes down to GM's corporate attitude which focuses eclusively on short-term profit. It trickles down to the guys running the racing programs. If the car's not fast right off the trailer, pull the plug and cut your losses.

In endurance racing especially, that's just not how it works. Imagine if Audi had given up after that dud they built in '99!

And yeah, the engine was a dog. Even in the LMP2, they were stuck with a choice of production, IRL, or DTM cylinder head castings, none of which were developed for a turbocharged engine!