[LM24] Porsche in top category at Le Mans 24

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by chewymonster

Yep, and even tough Porsche owns that almost 30% of VW. It needs VW much more, because even currently about 50% of their sales are VW dependent and soon that will increase even more. Probably close to 75% of all Porshes sold will have very strong VW ties in them.

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at.
Porsche and VW have always had strong ties. (first VW designed by Porsche,same family, etc)
If you are insinuating that Posche are just expensive VW's, then I'm afraid you know very little about Posche and its cars.

[chewymonster]

No I am not. I am just saying that it makes sense not to have sibling rivalry.

[Spyderman]

Of that we are in complete agreement.
The problem is that Porsche is the sports car manufacturer in the group, but its "natural" position in sports car racing is being occupied by Audi. (through no fault of Audi ; in fact, it's 100% Porsche's own fault for leaving sports car racing in 1999 and for making a pact with Audi)
The "trick" now is to reassign racing categories within the group.
Unfortunately, the ACO’s pro-diesel stance has made life very difficult for Porsche to reclaim its natural spot, but as the old adage goes: There is nothing more constant than change.

[chewymonster]

Don't worry. Porsche might soon put diesel in its road cars (courtesy of Audi) cause hybrids won't help much (the Porsche/VW/Audi hybrid will probably be far from very good) with the new European C02 rules.

[Spyderman]

No, that’s not very likely!
From what I understand the EU’s CO2 rules are still being discussed, so we will have to wait and see.

[minimangler]

In agree with manon
completely true, and as far as i'm concerned, LMP1 is a farce until they sort it out. Why don't the ACO listen?!?

[SebringMG]

I guess bevause they are also assessing whether the privateers are racing at the full potential of the current petrol regs ? I would say that they are not - too many old chassis kicking around that have been modded to keep them compliant - not much in the way of new development.......

At the end of the day you would expect a factory run car to be faster than a privateer car - is that not the situation we have ?

Note that while i do think diesels have an advantage and do need to be brought back......i also believe that a factory petrol car would be 2-3 seconds quicker than a privateer still!!

[CUT 7]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

You may be interested in these two threads on Autosport:
I've done it - I've cancelled Autosport &
Autosport Le Mans Supplement

However, let us stick to Sportscar rcing here...

I'd love Porsche to challenge for overall wins again, but for reasons said above, it doesn't seem that on.

Cheers for interesting links.Those threads highly entertaining. EEh ooop

[The Badger]

Wasnt there some sort of agreement back in the 70's that Porsche and Audi would not race head to head ..... I wonder if that still stands ?

LMP2 in the ALMS are "not supposed" to take the fight to LMP1 .

[JAG]

I doubt the diesel regs are stopping Porsche entering P1, they're afterall still developing the P2 car, hence why Penske are still running the cars.

I wouldn't expect a P1 Porsche to race until at least 2009, by which time diesel equivalency shouldn't be so much of an issue, while a coupe would be ideal for Porsche, not least because the P1/P2 would be distinct models

[sssssssss]

i think that's a realistic prediction... it just feels like even with peugeot out there, there still isn't as much show as it was back in '98-'99 with all those manufacturers involved. maybe toyota will be next

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Wasnt there some sort of agreement back in the 70's that Porsche and Audi would not race head to head ..... I wonder if that still stands ?

LMP2 in the ALMS are "not supposed" to take the fight to LMP1 .

Porsche own bits of VAG or whatever it's now called- good point!

[Nordic]

Porsche have too much too lose by running in P1 now. To be beaten by an oil burner Audi or even worse a Pug would be a PR disaster.

Porsche have always either come in when they could dominate being the first or only works team or when they have what they consider to be worthwhile contenders like Ferrari or Jag.

Porsche should IMHO look at GT1. they would then be up against other sports car brands and they would not have to face a diesel.

[JAG]

By the time Porsche enter P1 they could be the one with an advantage with some fancy petrol hybrid.

The US is their most important market, so they have to think about more efficient petrol motors, even if they rule out diesels.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by Nordic

Porsche should IMHO look at GT1. they would then be up against other sports car brands and they would not have to face a diesel.

Agree. Dont think Porsche wants to be beaten by Audi and Peug, that would be a disaster, but to be beaten by Ferrari or Aston or Maserati I think is easier to swallow then deisel cars.

[sssssssss]

I really don't think it would make a difference for porsche being beaten by Audi, Peugeot or Ferrari, Maserati etc. In racing, everybody knows manufacturers like Audi, Mercedes, Peugeot, BMW or Toyota can be just as competitive as the works of Porsche and Ferrari, if not simply more powerful nowadays. It seems to me that the traditional sportscar manufacturers are a bit scared after what they have witnessed with Audi, BMW, Toyota and even Mercedes. This maybe with the exception of Porsche, which fought them all But in any case I don't think it would be a shame for Porsche to lose against Audi or Peugeot and I really don't think they see it that way.

[Spyderman]

Well , then think of it this way:
Within the VAG group, Porsche is the manufacturer of sport cars.
(not counting Lambo..which is really viewed as a manufacturer of exotics).
How do you think it would look (in marketing terms) if the supposedly dedicated manufacturer of sports cars was roundly and consistently beaten by the other dedicated non - sports car manufacturers in the group.

[Aysedasi]

As if they weren't trying hard enough?

[SebringMG]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Well , then think of it this way:
Within the VAG group, Porsche is the manufacturer of sport cars.
(not counting Lambo..which is really viewed as a manufacturer of exotics).
How do you think it would look (in marketing terms) if the supposedly dedicated manufacturer of sports cars was roundly and consistently beaten by the other dedicated non - sports car manufacturers in the group.

Porsche own VAG but to associate them with the VAG group would be wrong, Lambo should be termed as high end sports cars - the Gallardo is not exotica. Audi are pushing themselves into the sports car bracked with the R8 which most tests in the UK motoring press have indicated is better than the 997......

Porsche have their market which frankly none of the other VAG brands impinge on with the exception of the new R8 - but i would suggest the R8 appeals to customers who would not normally consider a Porsche....

Porsche and Audi could race together in P1 - as long as Audi favours the alternative energy classes. The P2 programme is a PNA instigated operation to create a customer car....which has been achieved. I doubt Porsche looked at it in terms of a move to P1 when the programme started - this probably came a bit later.

Porsche will come back to P1 at some point when it suits themm however the longer they wait the harder the competition will be. With Acura coming and Toyota rumoured to be coming they have frankly missed their opportunity for easy wins for a good number of years - as such i doubt it will be anytime soon unless they really want to face off against lots of manufacturer opposition.....i have my doubts. GT1 is where they may make their next appearance......

[CUT 7]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Well , then think of it this way:
Within the VAG group, Porsche is the manufacturer of sport cars.
(not counting Lambo..which is really viewed as a manufacturer of exotics).
How do you think it would look (in marketing terms) if the supposedly dedicated manufacturer of sports cars was roundly and consistently beaten by the other dedicated non - sports car manufacturers in the group.

Yeah thats how it works. jagaur,porsche & mercedes took this line in the 90's .Didnt want to be beaten by Pug or a Jap, considering the cost of trying.
Its both to do with with marketing & team spirit

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Well , then think of it this way:
Within the VAG group, Porsche is the manufacturer of sport cars.
(not counting Lambo..which is really viewed as a manufacturer of exotics).
How do you think it would look (in marketing terms) if the supposedly dedicated manufacturer of sports cars was roundly and consistently beaten by the other dedicated non - sports car manufacturers in the group.

I still don't think it would make a big difference. Everybody knows if Audi WANT to create a road sportscar to beat any road Porsche, they can do it. Think of Audi's direct competitor, Mercedes, and their road-going CLK-GTR Luxurious companies always are very high-rated constructors of rare exotic cars... Mercedes, Bentley etc. And Audi is just that same category (by the way I'm still waitin for that rare exotic, which should be more exotic than the current road R8 Maybe a road version of the R8 racecar or R10 would be more interesting, as Peugeot plan to do with their 908). I think it's quite an honor for Porsche to lose against Audi, rather than in front of most other constructors.
From the legendary Greman honor point of view though, I think it would be tough for them - or Audi - to lose in front of Peugeot, although the Pugs showed extreme racecars back in '92-'93 - that 905 still is to this day the fastest sportscar.

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by sssssssss

I still don't think it would make a big difference. Everybody knows if Audi WANT to create a road sportscar to beat any road Porsche, they can do it.

Not without stealing porsche engineers they can't.
The best Audi fast car, the RS2 (imo) was Porsche sorted.

[SebringMG]

Best Audi sports car is the R8 which has been built in recent years - widely thought of to be better than the 911 (997) !!

Audi CAN do it quite easily as they have some of the best engineers in the business!!

The RS2 is decidely old tech now abd easily surpassed by the current RS4 which has one of the best engines put in a modern car atm!!!

[DanJR1]

the key to Audi's domination was the weak opposition. The R8 was never developed in a totally agressive way because there was no need to. It will be interesting to see how audi react when Peugeot are up to speed, Honda/Acura come in and others.

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by DanJR1

the key to Audi's domination was the weak opposition. The R8 was never developed in a totally agressive way because there was no need to. It will be interesting to see how audi react when Peugeot are up to speed, Honda/Acura come in and others.

the audi r8 was one of the best racecars ever. how can you say the key to its success was the weak opposition? the r8 had the bmw v12 lmr clearly beaten on the tracks all the 2000 LMS (or ALMS ?) season, that was proof it was a great car. the bmw was also a great car (it won le mans in '99 and around a full lap it was second fastest, behind toyota, but faster even than the mercedes) but still it was no match for the r8. also, lap times say it all: the ONLY car to have the toyot GT-one record lap time of 3:29.930 beaten was the audi r8 (3:29.905). they also had fenomenal lap times during the races, just an infernal pace basically. we can say that the r8 never USED its full potential because no competition was enough for it (and that's why maybe its top speeds weren't higher than 330 km/h, because all other statistics show record performance in LMP category for the r8), but certainly not that it did not have that potential. the r8 was the best LMP car so far, i think it could face even the r10 and 908 on the track, as it did with the bmw v12 lmr.

and as far as the peugeot competition is concerned, we've already seen the r10's clearly quicker in the race than all its competitors. this is how audi reacted to peugeot... releasing some more of that not fully known potential of the r10.