Health and Safety Gone MAAAAD!!!!

[goforit500]

Surely the very best and most expensive means of dealing with oil spills would be cheaper than replacing Armco.....

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Peter Harding

someone will surely tell us what circuits dont use cement and their experience

Anglesey doesn't use cement - they use what appears to be crushed slate. It does the job.

Then there's Coshh

Why are we still allowed to use dihydrogen monoxide.....a very dangerous chemical!

http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html#FACTS

[goforit500]

Whats it used for Dave ??

[whatapalaver]

I do remember hearing that "excesive use" of cement powder could cause problems. The description I heard involved clouds of dust being lifted and blown by the wind. Clearly this could not happen at Donington as the crowd is so far away! To be fair the warnings were being made to the marshals dressing the spill as well as the crowd.

I understood that detergents (alone) were as bad for the enviroment as oil.

Now if I understand the comments made by those before me all we need to do is employ a high speed responce team with a suitable bio-friendly detergent mist, scrubbing brushes, pressure washer and track-drier. rather than passing the cost on to maybe they could valet cars when not on the track?!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by goforit500

Whats it used for Dave ??

Lots of uses on a race track - if we're going to use detergent to clear oil spills, dihydrogen monoxide would be necessary to wash off the detergent, it's used in car cooling systems, it's a major constituent of the foam in AFFF extinguishers, the list is endlesss...........

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by Cynic

Odd that this doesn't appear to have been mentioned on any of the training days. It sounds suspiciously like someone in MSV's legal dept trying to justify their existence. I would also have thought that if it is an H&S issue, they would have done an assessment on this detergent to make sure it wasn't going to cause even more problems. By the sounds of it it's use is actually making the circuit more dangerous, and more likely to cause injury than a bit of cement dust. Oh, but of course us marshals have signed disclaimers haven't we........

Please do not automatically blame MSV!
I cannot say anyfurther, but Local Councils use an Environmental Department!!

[Chigley]

Pembrey last year at the last truck meeting we had an oil/diesil spillage and the circuit owner took over the clean up. The reason? he didn't want his new track surface damaged by the oil/diesil. He and another circuit worker spent 3/4hr going round the circuit with the circuit fire engine covering the spill with detergent from a bulk container and then hosing it off using the high pressure hoses. It created an early winter in Wales when the track disappeared in clouds of soap suds. If I remember right the 2CV's when out afterwards and we had cars with fantastic soapsud beards and a very slippery track when the dry part changed to that part that had been hosed down. Needless to say the meeting ran late.

To me tarmac of whatever nature is oil based so copious quantities of detergent is going to do more damage to the track than soaking it up with cement dust (or equivalent) and then brushing it off even if you have to use a circuit sweeper.

[goforit500]

Ah - Like the foam that sets just like cement when sprayed into an engine bay ?? :-)

Deffo better using cement !!

[johnw]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

We are using "wood flour" at some race tracks over here...I presume it is just like sawdust only finer....Cheers from Downunder

I think that they must be using the same in our local bakery.

[Stoowert]

Detergent over cement? Absolute nonsense! I must say that we do tend to overdo the cement on some spillages. It turns the entire countryside grey after the first lap! Next week we'll be using "Oildry" at LOng Beach. Sort of cross between kitty-litter and cement. It works! Believe me, if there was a super-dooper new oil-sucker-upper, the CART boys would use it! Didn't see much detergent at the last IndyCar race either.
Someone, somewhere has way too much time on their hands!

[danccooke]

I did notice on Monday at Thruxton that when we had a small oil spillage (i say small IMO non existent but that is another story) and we had a bucket of what looked like sand, definatly was not Cement definatly didn't make bubbles.
Will have to see what happens at other meets as no one person here has specified whether or not Cement is definatly banned or if circuits are trying out different means.
As always change causes problems. lets hope it gets sorted for the better which ever way it goes, just so long as it is quick easy and keeps the drivers on the Stick sticky black stuff rather than the slippy slippy green stuff,

[snetmarshal]

well another issue i was advised of at snet this weekend, is that marshals are not allowed to be touching a car once the breakdown truck arrives and is doing a full lift. Where as before we would help guide it whislt being lifted etc, evidently we should have nothing to do with the lift process anymore. Anyother new rules come in due to those health and safetly bods?

[Hepatic]

...we could always stop our driver friends from dropping it all over the black stuff in the first place!

Seriously, bikes don't have too many issues as they are designed to catch any leaking fluid. I know it's a totally different problem on cars, but if some budding inventor is out there a "car-nappy" would be great! Failing that, just being conservative with the dust helps. Is "How to treat a spillage" covered in the incident training?

[chezza]

Originally Posted by snetmarshal

well another issue i was advised of at snet this weekend, is that marshals are not allowed to be touching a car once the breakdown truck arrives and is doing a full lift. Where as before we would help guide it whislt being lifted etc, evidently we should have nothing to do with the lift process anymore. Anyother new rules come in due to those health and safetly bods?

I don't usually marshal at MSV circuits (I'm a silverstone bod normally) and I found this totally rediculous. If we have a full life to do we usually all take a corner so that strops and that are placed quickly so that the recovery takes the least amount of time possible.

When a car was being lifted on my post the observer went off on one when i put my hand up just incase the car swang round and got to close...You can't touch that blah blah your not insured to do it blah blah...! This is daft what was I supposed to do if it did swing round...just let it hit me?!

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by chezza

I don't usually marshal at MSV circuits (I'm a silverstone bod normally) and I found this totally rediculous. If we have a full life to do we usually all take a corner so that strops and that are placed quickly so that the recovery takes the least amount of time possible.

When a car was being lifted on my post the observer went off on one when i put my hand up just incase the car swang round and got to close...You can't touch that blah blah your not insured to do it blah blah...! This is daft what was I supposed to do if it did swing round...just let it hit me?!

There is a situation here where it is the responsibility by the breakdown company to take liability for the recovery of damaged cars. If a car should fall after recovery, who is liable the recovery Contractor or the Marshal who placed the slings/strops?? If it should swing round as stated above, KEEP away. Do not go near in this situation. At a nearby circuit as a precaution, Incident Marshals are being given Industrial Hard Hats. If a Marshals head is hit by a F3/BMW/Renault, who would come off worse? Let us stick to Marshalling, and the Recovery Companies stick to Recovery! No I am not a Union man, just playing safe!

[chezza]

I wasn't to close but as I knew the driver I was closer than I normally may be, however I usually marshal at a circuit where we snatch during races with a JCB...anybody (within reason) can hook up the cars and guide the car as the JCB moves back...this is without hard hats or anything else.

We are all aware of the risks of doing what we do and anybody who isn't shouldn't be there.

[Barry Pomfret]

Dave, I accidently consumed some dihydrogen monoxide when it was accidently tipped into a glass of scotch, should I see a doctor?

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Barry Pomfret

Dave, I accidently consumed some dihydrogen monoxide when it was accidently tipped into a glass of scotch, should I see a doctor?

Drink enough Scotch & you'll see two doctors!

Just remember, dihydrogen monoxide should only be added to Scotch in its solid state.

[stevebrown]

After reading through the replies and looking at some of the alternatives suggested I thought that some of these would have been tried instead. The plaster seems a good one, I have come across that myself. I really cannot believe we were using detergent yesterday, it made the track slippery for a long time. Four cars were damaged because of it.
There doesn't seem to have been any thought gone into this, the reason I think this decision was made by someone who has never been near a race track. (Although it was suggested (jokingly) that JP took up the detergent option because he doesn't like white streaks on his tarmac)! No one has tested it or asked if it's a good idea, or even looked at COSHH reports and passed them onto us, the people who have to work with it. It wasn't even mentioned in any briefings. But then when did marshals thoughts and well being counted.

Steve B

[Sheila M]

Having been on the receiving end of an eyeful of plaster dust (a visit to the eye clinic at the local hospital, pain killing eyedrops to get the eye open enough to wash it out with several litres of saline, and then 4 days off sick) I'm all for alternative methods of cleaning up oil spills. However, I don't think detergent is the answer.

I've seen Mallory circuit staff use something that looks like a gigantic J-Cloth for mopping up spills - works a treat but then you have to get rid of the cloth afterwards.

I think the CART teams have the right idea - they use some kind of absorbent granules which look like polystyrene balls (I believe it's manufactured by Simple Green). Yes, it's expensive but as someone said earlier, if it didn't work properly, the CART safety teams wouldn't even look at it.

[archaic gold]

Back to the Cement argument; with bikes and even cars, a line of cement often is a marker for the rider/driver to keep off that particular line of the track and is often used in that way especially with minor spread leaks. Not having used detergent, does it show-up in the same manner on the track? I fear not!!

[theracegypsy]

In the USA, where litigation is an art form, IMSA have develoed a detergent for fuel spils which you pour on as a liquid and brush off two minutes later, taking the fuel with it as a gel. I believe it was developed by a company who sponsered racing there.

So there are alternatives, but at a finacial cost.

[Sheila M]

Just a thought - if a driver was seriously injured as a result of going off on oil covered with detergent (as opposed to oil marked by cement or plaster, which he/she would no doubt have avoided like the plague) could he/she sue the Health and Safety Executive of the Local Authority who made this stupid ruling in the first place?

The indemnity required to be signed by all competitors (B.9.4 of the Blue Book) states:

"I declare that i have been given the opporunity to read the General Regulations of the Motor Sports Association and, if any, the Supplementary Regulations for this event and agree to be bound by them. I declare that I am physically and mentally fit to take part in the event and I am competent to do so. I acknowledge that I understand the nature and type of the competition and the potential risk inherent with motor sport and agree to accept that risk. Further, I understand that all persons having any connection with the promotion and/or organisation and/or conduct of the event are insured against loss or injury cause through their negligence".

Are Local Authorities covered here? I'm not sure, but I would be interested to see what the legal eagles in our midst have to say about it.

[chezza]

I totally agree with you sheila although will this be the decision of the local authority or is it an MSV decision? In which case it could be palmer being sued...!

[Circuitmarshal]

[QUOTE=danccooke]I did notice on Monday at Thruxton that when we had a small oil spillage (i say small IMO non existent but that is another story) and we had a bucket of what looked like sand, definatly was not Cement definatly didn't make bubbles. [QUOTE]

When we dressed some oil on Monday we said it wasn't cement as it was white, so what was it then?