[LM24] Le Mans 2010 (General)

[Ultimo]

I personally think that this thread should have started on Sunday or Monday, but alas, nearly a week has passed and no thread has started so I figure I shall start it.

So here we are, the dust has settled. The Lion has jumped through the four rings, Porsche's dominant RS Spyder has triumphed in a privateer category, Corvette has had their GT1 swan song, and the Prancing Donkey has utterly humiliated the Pig.

That's all well and good, but what of next year? Will it be another Audi-Peugeot duel? Will Peugeot even attend? Will the R15 be upgraded enough to win the first race of a new decade?

Time will tell - but the time is a year away and to pass the time I expect the population of 10 Tenths to discuss, debate, argue, deliberate, propose, hypothesize, extrapolate, imagine, and do other things of this nature in this thread.

Have at it chaps and chapettes!

[Fab]

Mmm... nice thread for a long long winter...

As I've been asked by some old members at the TT meeting I'll try to post once in a week, and this fits perfectly with this topic.

Actually, I noticed that the debate raged already on some french forums, but I was surprise too that nobody tried to launch it here... the post race syndrom maybe ?

There's plenty to discuss :
- what about the past Audish decade at its very end last week-end ?
- what about what we lived in 1989 and 1999 (remember what we had in 1992, in 2000) ?
- what about new rules and new categories ?
- what about hybrids and consomption based ACO's rules ?
- what about the goodbye to GT1 (remembers something to me) ?
- what about the actual crisis and car builders hability to commit in new projets ?
- what about gossips ?

Well, to paraphrase some Clarcksonish TV animator, "let's find out !"

I'll chose for this week-end the link between the last three decades (oh my, it could worked for the last four !)... the end of C group led to a major failure : I'm watching/re-reading those days old tapes and ACO's annual of this critical period. We went from best to worst possible field (quantity in 1992, quality in 1994 : pathetic !). We didn't have much better last millenium turn up : what a difference between 1999 and 2000... we needed two years to see some great cars back on business (Dallara Oreca, Bentleys, MGs). Two years is a very long time, meaning two races without any passion or real opponent for the winner.

I'd like some examination of what the LMP1 field could be in 2010 and 2011. We'll have 3 Audis (confirmed by Dt Ulrich) and 3 Pugs (confirmed by Peugeot's staff on the podium), if the boards agree despite the running crisis (not done, IMHO).

What about AM ? Prodrive was clear about its intention to go F1 instead... is AM able to go by itself to LM ?

Oreca : as AM, Hugues de Chaunac was clear bout equivalences. If the category is not more balanced between diesel and gas, it's a big no no (perfectly understandable BTW).

Pescarolo : it will be "Pug" or nothing, or so.

And what about the quite anonymous (let's be honest : as I was away from the forum for three years, I knew nothing about what I saw, and was unable to expect anything of Zytek, Ginetta and so on... and when I listen Johnny Mowlem on RLM say "let's face it : money talks more than ever this year", all has been said about the teams rolling here) rest of the P1 field ? One week later, I even can't remember who's behind the leaders on the scoring board. Let's see what's what : Pug, Pug, Audi, AM, Oreca, Pug... er... Pescarolo ?... er... I think that the Essex Porker is not far but... oh well... can't say. See ? That's my old brain probably

That said, the outsiders did sterling job compared to what we had some years in the same decade ! And the cars were awsome... but who's who ?

We need more opponents for the lead, or at least we need to believe that, well in some conditions, it's possible for the strong outsiders... the best exemples : 1991 (Mazda), 1999 (BMW). At least give us a real AM potentiel winner.

A very provocative answer... your turn now !

[Rodger Davies]

if you want a more competitve field, it's not equivilencies in speed that need ironing out, it's the sheer number of cars that each of the major teams was running. Four Peugeots and five Audis didn't give much possibility for the tortoises to outlast the hares.

[Lusitano]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

if you want a more competitve field, it's not equivilencies in speed that need ironing out, it's the sheer number of cars that each of the major teams was running. Four Peugeots and five Audis didn't give much possibility for the tortoises to outlast the hares.

Completely agree! I surely would like to see more variety. I miss the white dome with gold wheels and the black Epsilon-Euskadi cars.

[AstonGeoff]

Originally Posted by Lusitano

Completely agree! I surely would like to see more variety. I miss the white dome with gold wheels and the black Epsilon-Euskadi cars.

Trouble is they weren't competitive and didn't last that long, so whilst I'd love to see a mixture of cars in LMP1 the reality is that outside of the R15/R10, 908 diesel battle there are only 3 or 4 cars likely to survive and take the fight to them. So the problem is then that if we take out, lets say, half of the big guns and replace them with cars that aren't going to last we'll still end up pretty much as we are but with less finishers!

But if there were enough quality LMP1 entries then, yes, I would love to see the limitations enlarged to make/model as well as team.

And let's not forget the 956/962 era, most of the top ten were one or the other at one stage! At least we have open Audi's and closed Pugs now!

[Pilgrimage]

LMP1 was very strong this year - strongest in depth for many years IMO and I'd love to see them all bac next year - with a few more thrown in for good measure!
GT1 was very disappointing though - the highlight must have been the start straight rolling burn out as the vette went out with a rather large roar!

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

if you want a more competitve field, it's not equivilencies in speed that need ironing out, it's the sheer number of cars that each of the major teams was running. Four Peugeots and five Audis didn't give much possibility for the tortoises to outlast the hares.

Yes, that is getting out of hand and needs to be reeled back in!




L.P.

[Le Vieux]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Yes, that is getting out of hand and needs to be reeled back in!




L.P.

1967: I seem to remember Ford GTs everywhere - Ford France, Holman and Moody, Alan Mann Racing, Shelby American and so on.....

I thought it was great and it didn't seem to do much harm. Penalising success isn't the way. Better to make positive moves to encourage others to raise their standards, like the equivalence arithmetic; then we could have five Audis, five Peugeots, five Astons, five Pepsicolas!

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Le Vieux

1967: I seem to remember Ford GTs everywhere - Ford France, Holman and Moody, Alan Mann Racing, Shelby American and so on.....

I thought it was great and it didn't seem to do much harm. Penalising success isn't the way. Better to make positive moves to encourage others to raise their standards, like the equivalence arithmetic; then we could have five Audis, five Peugeots, five Astons, five Pepsicolas!

I am not opposed to large #s of anything in a class, but the amount of Works cars is out of line! That many works cars penalizes the success of the privateers!




L.P.

[GT6]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I am not opposed to large #s of anything in a class, but the amount of Works cars is out of line! That many works cars penalizes the success of the privateers!




L.P.

I would agree works entries are only there when times are good but without the non works teams there would be no races most years, 2 or 3 cars should be the limit for full works cars however as in the past many privately entered cars have some works help so it is difficult to distinguise what is a full works team and what is factory backing. The ACO should look closely at how they allocate grid slots and lets hope they do not sacrifice the long term private teams for the short team factory efforts

[Le Vieux]

Originally Posted by GT6

I would agree works entries are only there when times are good but without the non works teams there would be no races most years, 2 or 3 cars should be the limit for full works cars however as in the past many privately entered cars have some works help so it is difficult to distinguise what is a full works team and what is factory backing. The ACO should look closely at how they allocate grid slots and lets hope they do not sacrifice the long term private teams for the short team factory efforts

Agreed. Determining what's a works entry can sometimes be difficult.
Which of the aforementioned Ford GTs was the works entry?
Look back at the Eighties - despite an "official" works team, there were plenty of 956/962s capable of winning.

[AndrewF31]

I believe Shelby, Holman/Moody and Ford France were all works entries in their own sense. Shelby was fairly independent but only because they had so many years of experience with the car (like P&M), Holman and Moody was brought it to increase Ford's chances. Ford France was just another tentacle of Ford's lust for victory.

It does get hard to separate private from works. There are plenty of teams out there that are so highly professional, the only real works help they need is just some inside knowledge on the cars and official parts and factory support on more complicate issues (Prodrive, Flying Lizards, P&M, Oreca, Pescarolo, even Joest).

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by AndrewF31

I believe Shelby, Holman/Moody and Ford France were all works entries in their own sense. Shelby was fairly independent but only because they had so many years of experience with the car (like P&M), Holman and Moody was brought it to increase Ford's chances. Ford France was just another tentacle of Ford's lust for victory.

I think that you are right. Every Mk2 and Mk4 entered that year were Factory entries. The only Fords that were not factory entries were the older GT-40s.

DK

[HORNDAWG]

The ACO have announced that the 78th running of the 24 Heures du Mans will take place on June 12th - 13th, 2010.

Today, it is time to think about the next “24 Heures du Mans”, which will take place on 12th and 13th June, 2010. Peugeot has already announced its intention to defend its title, and is waiting to take on the challengers to the crown. The complete list of the teams automatically invited by the ACO will be published after the Asian Le Mans Series (in Japan) on 1st November. Once again, the line-up promises to be exceptional, both in the Prototype and GT categories. Don’t miss the 78th edition of the “24 Heures du Mans”, the last opportunity to see the evolution of the present prototypes and GTs, since a new technical rule will be coming into force as from 2011.

L.P.

[Tim the Grey]

Tim to book the holiday... Plus Le Mans Classic next year. Woohoo.

[Tim the Grey]

Can anyone see this coming to pass at Le Mans???
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/8292264.stm

[GT6]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Can anyone see this coming to pass at Le Mans???
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/8292264.stm

I do a pretty good job at consumming alcohol at le mans but even i would he in need of medical attention at the thought of 24 cans of high strength lager per day, thats 12 litres of the stuff. I can just see the gate marshalls trying to police it, they could print little tabs on the tickets and tear them of each time you return to the track with more beer.

I do remember one year they tried to ban Glass bottle on the practice days, we reached the enterance behind the pits just before the start of the evening session with rucksacs containing numerous bottle of Jeulain (dark beer 9%). Rather than walk back to the campsite we drank the lot in about 15 minutes, were rather drunk about half an hour later.

[Tim the Grey]

The Law of Unintended Consequences, at work!

[Lusitano]

Can not wait!!! Looking forward for another epic edition!!! Might go for the beausejour site again; possibly not the best, but after 2 years there, I believe it is good bang for the buck.

I understand prices went up. Is that correct? 65€ general?

Good luck with imposing such laws on events such as the 24H. Ban alcohol because of the violence it potentially generates? Oh, and what about the violence that is not generated by alcohol? For example, I get annoyed at the sight of F1 ****, like hats, shirts, and the lot. Should not those be banned?

Personally, if I start to see much too much "rules", it is one less event for me to attend.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Can anyone see this coming to pass at Le Mans???
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/8292264.stm

I was going to post that the other week as well.

It would be impossible to police. More people spread out over a much larger area, other many nationalities. Besides, I've seen some pretty drunk people on Mad Friday before, but 24 cans is a heck of a lot!

What I can't understand is that this law has been brought in to curb violence, but surely once you've drank 12 litres of beer you are way, way past being able to throw a punch?

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Can anyone see this coming to pass at Le Mans???
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/8292264.stm

Is one "slab" or 4 litres per day really a limit or more of an invitation? Seems like you can get pretty plastered with this "limit".

DK

[KSR88]

Originally Posted by AndrewF31

I believe Shelby, Holman/Moody and Ford France were all works entries in their own sense. Shelby was fairly independent but only because they had so many years of experience with the car (like P&M), Holman and Moody was brought it to increase Ford's chances. Ford France was just another tentacle of Ford's lust for victory.

It does get hard to separate private from works. There are plenty of teams out there that are so highly professional, the only real works help they need is just some inside knowledge on the cars and official parts and factory support on more complicate issues (Prodrive, Flying Lizards, P&M, Oreca, Pescarolo, even Joest).

Flying Lizards has factory support and one car with Porsche team drivers----but when Seth and Johannes are in a car it is a classic gentlemen team. Team principals and I don't think either has ever had a pro ride--paid to drive! Nothing like Champion, Joest or the others with all pro drivers.

As for help--in this day it is way, way more than parts --it is engineers by the droves and that is really what separates factory teams from most pro teams--at least in the U.S.. Most personnel on U.S. pro teams are weekend warriors flying in for the weekend to change tires, review data or whatever their task...working with a small group of permanent staff. Factory teams have all full time staff-especially engineers that design, develop, and then provide race support vs. a part time engineer that had nothing to do with design and development of the car. The difference is huge.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

What I can't understand is that this law has been brought in to curb violence, but surely once you've drank 12 litres of beer you are way, way past being able to throw a punch?

The trouble is after 12 litres, the ability may have dimished but the desire will increase!

[The Badger]

That depends on the person . I can drink a fair few , and sit about laughing and wanting a good time , not agro !!!

Isnt there a drink limitation (ban) for the motorbike race at Le Mans already ?

[nobster]

Originally Posted by The Badger

That depends on the person . I can drink a fair few , and sit about laughing and wanting a good time , not agro !!!

Isnt there a drink limitation (ban) for the motorbike race at Le Mans already ?

Wasn't there an alcohol ban for this year's 24 hour bike race in place?