[WEC] BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I’ll calm down on the sarcasm if we can calm down on the hyperbole, swearing and hating about something that is frankly not that important. I am failing to take it all that seriously.

All I’ve actually said is that it is close out there, it is hard to do this stuff, and it is practically impossible to get it better than it is

You tell Ducati and Red Bull Racing that winning is not important!

Same applies for the constructors in sportscar racing.

Why do you suppose winning on merit is not important in sportscar racing?

Yes Acura and Toyota signed up for it, but did they sign up for having so much more weight than others that they have no chance to win at all?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

You are welcome to support BOP if you like, but F1, MotoGP and WRC are clearly better as engineering competitions IMO, it is no contest!

Got it! Got it ages ago, thanks.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Got it! Got it ages ago, thanks.

No worries! Sportscar racing (LMP) could be good, such a shame it is like wrestling.

I will keep slating BOP for being "pants" as long as it is "pants", you are welcome to maintain that is "brilliant" and the cars are within an acceptable range of parameters -- nearly 60kg difference between lightest and heaviest is apparently "within tolerance". That's the point of the thread after all.

I don't mind BOP in GT3 -- those cars are fundamentally different, so that's fine.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

You tell Ducati and Red Bull Racing that winning is not important!

It’s like you are uninterested in understanding what someone is getting at, but just want to score some sort of win. I guess you take that seriously.

I don’t take sport that seriously. I enjoy it and if I don’t I don’t watch it.

Sport isn’t important. Intense, exciting, interesting, passionate, but not actually important. And of course when a competitor you give it all and care, but it isn’t actually important in the grand scheme of things.

Not enough to need to be right about it anyway.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

I will keep slating BOP for being "pants" as long as it is "pants", you are welcome to maintain that is "brilliant"

a perfect example that you don’t understand what I am writing. I don’t think it is “brilliant”.

What you could attempt is to try and say something new or interesting.

and the cars are within an acceptable range of parameters -- nearly 60kg difference between lightest and heaviest is apparently "within tolerance". That's the point of the thread after all.

and that you don’t understand the process, the history, or the engineering of what they are trying to do.

And in your continuous slating fail to understand the why it is what it is.

Which is what most of my posts are about.

That and anyone who can actually tell that the BoP is wrong (or right) is kidding themselves.

I don't mind BOP in GT3 -- those cars are fundamentally different, so that's fine.

WWGT.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Adam43

It’s like you are uninterested in understanding what someone is getting at, but just want to score some sort of win. I guess you take that seriously.

I don't follow.

Ducati and Red Bull Racing are very interested in winning.

Toyota Gazoo Racing and Ferrari AF Corse are also very interested winning. But the rules changed from LMP1 to LMH+LMDh so it is no longer a pure competition (diesel & petrol equivalence was also problematic mind you).

Bring back LMP1 I say!

Originally Posted by Adam43

and that you don’t understand the process, the history, or the engineering of what they are trying to do.

Care to elaborate? GTE used to produce close racing, my understanding is that BOP in Hypercar was meant to produce nose-to-tail battles like GTE for the whole race.

If it's just to get cars in a window, while cars that used to win races are now a lap down because they are so heavy, I don't see the use of it. It's more like gifting a win to Porsche or Peugeot and sabotaging Toyota and Ferrari than anything else.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Adam43

a perfect example that you don’t understand what I am writing. I don’t think it is “brilliant”..

So you think it's not a big deal as sportscar prototype racing is just some fun?

It's not racing for sheep stations, even though it is *quite* a high level championship?!

Originally Posted by Adam43

That and anyone who can actually tell that the BoP is wrong (or right) is kidding themselves.

Anyone can see when Acura or Toyota are so slow they have no chance to win. To blame the teams for doing a poor job when, logically based on engineering, +20kg to Porsche or +14kg to Ferrari and +49kg to Porsche would explain why they are slow seems illogical.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Bring back LMP1 I say!

Bring back 2-3 manufacturers and all but 1 gone within 1-2 years, you mean. I say no thx to that

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

So you think it's not a big deal as sportscar prototype racing is just some fun?

Yes I do! It’s that good!

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

… my understanding is that BOP in Hypercar was meant to produce nose-to-tail battles like GTE for the whole race.

That wasn’t my understanding.

Yet it is ridiculously close! Closer than practically any other sportscar era.

I like your Toyota is a lap down complaint. If you are 0.3s a lap slower you end up a lap down. Actually the Toyota was about 1s a lap off pace, so it did well to be only a lap down.

Let’s have some perspective here.

Although I love the dual slating that includes it needs to be an open engineering challenge and criticism that it isn’t close as intended. The first misses so much engineering that does remain and the second is false accusation that also misses that it is pretty close.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Anyone can see when Acura or Toyota are so slow they have no chance to win. To blame the teams for doing a poor job when, logically based on engineering, +20kg to Porsche or +14kg to Ferrari and +49kg to Porsche would explain why they are slow seems illogical.

Not sure anyone is blaming the teams.

What I am more interested in is how the BoP adjustments barely changed since the prior race yet the order did.

It’s changed because of the job the teams have done, or maybe it is the track, or something else. I am interested in that.

Hard to discuss that when others aren’t interested in this engineering, but just interested in mindless slating with nothing new added.

[Adam43]

Anyway. Next race is April 21st. I guess we don’t hear the BoP until a week or so before.

Originally Posted by J Jay

Let's get in early - Porsche power drop/weight bump incoming.

Where will the new Peugeot end up? My guess is that they launch it between the Toyota and Ferrari like they did with the Isotta Fraschini.

Other than that I guess we see a small reduction in weight for Toyota and Ferrari (maybe with a power change too, but not necessarily also a benefit).

A small power bump for BMW?


I’m going with small because they’ve said they don’t want to knee jerk.

But it’s difficult to tell

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Where will the new Peugeot end up? My guess is that they launch it between the Toyota and Ferrari like they did with the Isotta Fraschini.

Since it's a new car in essence, you're probably right. I also expect homologation data-based BOP so they will get something similar to Alpina or Isotta. On track they'll probably fight with BMW and Lambo.

[Sodemo]

My understanding of how the BOP is meant to work is thus;

A team / car maker designs either a LMH or LMDh car, it is then aero tested to provide a pre-specified amount of drag and downforce which is equal (within reason) to the other cars.

The engine is dyno tested(?) to provide a power figure which is then equalised torque wise to the 671bhp figure - again which all other cars adhere to.

The cars are built to a common weight of 1030kg which is fairly easy to measure.

So if the cars weight, aero platform, engine power can all be equalised, why is there so much BOP intervention needed? I understand that there are factors that cannot be equalised easily such as;

- Driver performance
- Braking performance
- Low speed traction performance
- Car weight in terms of COG
- Car cooling performance

How I understood the BOP to work was that if your car (Car A) produced a bit less downforce than Car B, then Car A would be say given a weight break of 10-20kg, that kind of thing. That BOP makes sense because its a trade off and thats how it should be. Ok your engine only produces 665bhp, ok well you can have a slightly less draggy body then. Thats how I assumed this BOP jigsaw to work, someone correct me if I am wide of the mark?

[KlBD]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Care to elaborate? GTE used to produce close racing, my understanding is that BOP in Hypercar was meant to produce nose-to-tail battles like GTE for the whole race.

Not to be pedantic but didn't GTE also use BoP? At least since 2016 when the whole fracas with the Ford GT at Le Mans was going on.

I think some of the issue with the perception of BoP as many have mentioned is that the governing bodies have decided it's not productive for the entire process to be transparent. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on that one - as Gerard C said in one of these threads, maybe it's not necessary for fans to know all the details. Compare the type of discussion about WEC races on Ten Tenths to say, social media posts and that becomes apparent. Heck, even in ball sports where they have attempted to be more transparent about officiating, that has just caused fan anger over admitted incorrect decisions because like pretty much all sports, the organizers don't like reversing calls. But in the end, not knowing all the details also causes us all to sit here and either debate what may really be going on, or often with more casual fans, write off anything as the work of BoP.

Another thing is everyone personally has different expectations of what effective BoP should look like. However effective it is, even with perfect BoP, there is still only ever one winner per race and per series season, and since it's basically advertising dollars on the line, even if it were perfect, manufacturers would never stop complaining about it.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

My understanding of how the BOP is meant to work is thus;

A team / car maker designs either a LMH or LMDh car, it is then aero tested to provide a pre-specified amount of drag and downforce which is equal (within reason) to the other cars.

The rules allow for variation of drag and downforce. Each car doesn’t have to be the same.
This is to allow for a variation in design and look. Hence the Peugeot.
While this isn’t completely open it isn’t all must be equal either.

As such the homologation has variances in this and, as we know from this and other series, wind tunnels and on track performance isn’t perfectly correlated.

It should be remembered that LMDh could be quite different here.

Two wind tunnels are used. One in Europe for WEC and one in US for IMSA. They test hypercar or LMDh. The wind tunnel is by series not car type.

The engine is dyno tested(?) to provide a power figure which is then equalised torque wise to the 671bhp figure - again which all other cars adhere to.

No need for dyno test in the homologation. This is done on the car while it is moving. The torque sensors measure the power that gets to the wheels and you are not allowed to go over that described in the rules. It is irrelevant whether the power comes from ICE or BEV.

The cars are built to a common weight of 1030kg which is fairly easy to measure.

I would hope all could get to this.

So if the cars weight, aero platform, engine power can all be equalised, why is there so much BOP intervention needed?

They aren’t equalized exactly and there is error in the measurement.

However if you remove all the BoP adjustments that are used to compensate I guess they’d still be quite close. But perhaps within 3s of each other rather than the typical <1s we see after.

I understand that there are factors that cannot be equalised easily such as;

- Driver performance
- Braking performance
- Low speed traction performance
- Car weight in terms of COG
- Car cooling performance

My point here is that they have got them so close that things like driver variation > car potential so they are doing a reasonable job. Not perfect, but good enough.

And yet they should continue to aim for perfection. Not that they can get there.

How I understood the BOP to work was that if your car (Car A) produced a bit less downforce than Car B, then Car A would be say given a weight break of 10-20kg, that kind of thing. That BOP makes sense because its a trade off and thats how it should be. Ok your engine only produces 665bhp, ok well you can have a slightly less draggy body then. Thats how I assumed this BOP jigsaw to work, someone correct me if I am wide of the mark?

In a way, yeah.

But they have allowed more variation in the start point that trying to get all exact.

A good example of this was that it is thought that they can have manufacturer styling cues if they want. And as such you wouldn’t suffer if you want to put a big Lion on the front, for instance.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

My understanding of how the BOP is meant to work is thus;

A team / car maker designs either a LMH or LMDh car, it is then aero tested to provide a pre-specified amount of drag and downforce which is equal (within reason) to the other cars.

The engine is dyno tested(?) to provide a power figure which is then equalised torque wise to the 671bhp figure - again which all other cars adhere to.

The cars are built to a common weight of 1030kg which is fairly easy to measure.

So if the cars weight, aero platform, engine power can all be equalised, why is there so much BOP intervention needed? I understand that there are factors that cannot be equalised easily such as;

- Driver performance
- Braking performance
- Low speed traction performance
- Car weight in terms of COG
- Car cooling performance

How I understood the BOP to work was that if your car (Car A) produced a bit less downforce than Car B, then Car A would be say given a weight break of 10-20kg, that kind of thing. That BOP makes sense because its a trade off and thats how it should be. Ok your engine only produces 665bhp, ok well you can have a slightly less draggy body then. Thats how I assumed this BOP jigsaw to work, someone correct me if I am wide of the mark?

Exactly this. I can even live with "okay, these cars are slightly less optimally designed, you can get a weight break or power bump relative to cars xyz", but I can't live what seemingly amounts to success ballast, cause that I'm sure is not what the manufacturers signed up for, less so from out of the gate from the start of the season. Even Super GT which is famous for using success ballast starts the season off on a level playing field.

[KlBD]

Originally Posted by Matador

Exactly this. I can even live with "okay, these cars are slightly less optimally designed, you can get a weight break or power bump relative to cars xyz", but I can't live what seemingly amounts to success ballast, cause that I'm sure is not what the manufacturers signed up for, less so from out of the gate from the start of the season. Even Super GT which is famous for using success ballast starts the season off on a level playing field.

Although with GT500, there are quite a lot of common parts between the 3 cars, and the engine specification is also predetermined. But in their case, things like the success ballast and the recent fuel flow restrictors have been established and around for long enough that fans and participants basically accept it as part of the furniture.

Maybe a better comparison is the equalization GTA have had to do between JAF & GT3 cars? That seems to have been quite a moving target in recent years, as is the case now with hypercars.

[TF110]

I wish there were just a set weight and dimensions rule, engines like they are now with a power cap (say 700hp) and a budget restriction of maybe 25 million. But that'd be for a different era I guess. Everyone is worried about competition and being close and the expenses. So bop it is, for now at least.

[Sodemo]

What does IMSA do in terms of their BOP, I presume they use different balancing tables and formulas?

[Adam43]

They do.

There are some subtle differences on GTP/Hypercar. The main being the use of a different wind tunnel. Although data is shared between the two, but I get the impression this is more informational that actually used. The publish tables in the same way. They do have different weights and power. I did a comparison of the power to weight https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=728
IMSA tends to have lighter weights, but they don’t have to worry about the whole two classes into one thing. All of them are the more similar LMDh at the moment. We are waiting for the Lambo adjustments. I’ll be interested if they start conservative here. They’ve never had a new car join.

GT is very different. WEC uses the torque sensors, IMSA, for cost reasons use the old boost and air restrictors. Here is a previous discussion on it https://tentenths.com/forum/showthre...ar#post4193374

[tomcug]

https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/i...der-of-season/
IMSA's new BOP for GT3 is no more.
https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/i...asses-in-2025/
Torque sensors probably introduced in 2025.
And back to Sebring BOP, the Caddy GTP got an increase in weight compared to Daytona and 2023 Sebring. Acura down to 1055 kg.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Adam43

There are some subtle differences on GTP/Hypercar.

Originally Posted by tomcug

the Caddy GTP got an increase in weight compared to Daytona and 2023 Sebring. Acura down to 1055 kg.

So the Acura loses 17kg and then wins the Sebring 12 hour under GTP. What a coincidence.

Statistics, log charts, sensitivities constantly adjusted circuit-to-circuit is all fine and good, but I don't think it's really engineering. Having a competition to build a sports prototype (even within parameters like specified lift, drag, power, energy etc), that's engineering.

Why not let the cars have different circuits they excel at (most will choose to excel at Le Mans), instead of circuit-to-circuit adjustments like adding 30kg to Cadillac for Sebring?

[Adam43]

Not sure why you’ve quoted my post there. It seems to not be relevant to the paragraph I wrote.

Still, yes, a car won a race.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

So the Acura loses 17kg and then wins the Sebring 12 hour under GTP. What a coincidence.

Yes, we all know it's conspiracy, no need to repeat yourself And the fact that Cadillac was very strong the entire race doesn't matter at all

[TF110]

imo Acura should have never been so heavy. I feel that was punishment unwarranted (for MSR's cheating) to all Acura's. The bop looked relatively close in Sebring but it was somewhat disguised by cautions keeping cars close.