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Old 10 Nov 2022, 08:30 (Ref:4133153)   #451
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
Obviously RBR and AM exceeded the cap, so what's the third team you are talking about?
RBR are the only team to have exceeded the cap.

AM and Williams have both been fined for procedural issues (but they are not for exceeding the cap).
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Old 10 Nov 2022, 09:22 (Ref:4133159)   #452
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
Obviously RBR and AM exceeded the cap, so what's the third team you are talking about?
RB were found to have marginally exceeded the cap through their accounting procedures.

AM had 12 issues of incorrectly excluded/adjusted items.

Williams had a procedural issue.

RB penalty has been published.

AM fined.

Williams were fined too.

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Old 10 Nov 2022, 10:23 (Ref:4133169)   #453
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RB were found to have marginally exceeded the cap.
FTFY

Although to be accurate:
If RBR applied the correct treatment within its Full Year Reporting Documentation of RBR’s Notional Tax Credit within its 2021 submission of a value of £1,431,348, it would have been considered by the Cost Cap Administration to be in compliance with Article 4.1(b) of the Regulations and therefore RBR’s Relevant Costs for the 2021 Reporting Period would have in fact exceeded the 2021 Cost Cap by £432,652 (0.37%).

In summary - RBR exceeded the cap. The reported excess was higher than it could have been if they had complied with the reporting requirements of the regulations. Their accounting procedures did not cause the breach, but they exaggerated it.
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Old 10 Nov 2022, 15:15 (Ref:4133199)   #454
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I'm struggling to understand what Helmut Marko is saying today:

"We thought we had a safety net of $3m. In the end, there was only $400,000 left. With the money, Hamilton constructs a front wing and Haas makes a whole new car."

Now we know they went over the cap, so they did not have $400k left.
But - what is he saying about Hamilton getting a new front wing?
Is he saying that the amount they spent over the cap could buy a Mercedes front wing, or a Haas chassis?
Or is he trying to claim that Mercedes constructed another wing that they didn't declare in their costs?
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Old 10 Nov 2022, 15:35 (Ref:4133203)   #455
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I think he's talking about relative wealth of the teams. The end logic of that is for RBR the $400,000 is a few sandwiches and some soda pop hence the ease with which they missed the odd few bucks.
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Old 10 Nov 2022, 21:21 (Ref:4133228)   #456
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I think he's talking about relative wealth of the teams. The end logic of that is for RBR the $400,000 is a few sandwiches and some soda pop hence the ease with which they missed the odd few bucks.
Then in his attempt to show how small a mistake it was, all he does is highlight that RBR are one of the biggest offenders of the wealth gap in Formula One. But we shouldn't expect much from Mr Marko.
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Old 11 Nov 2022, 10:09 (Ref:4133257)   #457
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Then in his attempt to show how small a mistake it was, all he does is highlight that RBR are one of the biggest offenders of the wealth gap in Formula One. But we shouldn't expect much from Mr Marko.
Yes, humility is an alien concept to the likes of Horner and Marko
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Old 11 Nov 2022, 10:31 (Ref:4133266)   #458
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Then in his attempt to show how small a mistake it was, all he does is highlight that RBR are one of the biggest offenders of the wealth gap in Formula One. But we shouldn't expect much from Mr Marko.
So if I'm understanding it correctly, he's saying: "We're so rich that we wouldn't even notice a difference in $3m to the way we do business. We might have built another wing maybe? But for a minnow like Haas, it's a big deal for them so they would notice.
It's not fair that we are so big we don't even know how much we spend."


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Old 11 Nov 2022, 12:33 (Ref:4133271)   #459
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How big a hole do they want to dig?
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Old 11 Nov 2022, 12:51 (Ref:4133276)   #460
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How big a hole do they want to dig?
Hopefully one big enough to bury their huge egos and sense of entitlement in!
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Old 11 Nov 2022, 13:03 (Ref:4133280)   #461
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Hopefully one big enough to bury their huge egos and sense of entitlement in!
The Red Bull Racing Time Capsule!
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Old 25 Nov 2022, 10:37 (Ref:4134852)   #462
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I'm sure it is entirely unrelated, but the link is being made in the media:

Shaila-Ann Rao to depart FIA role after less than six months

'Sources close to Rao have told BBC Sport that the decision to leave was hers - she resigned because the FIA is going through a re-organisation process and she felt that there would not be a job in which she was interested at the end of it.

She will leave the FIA at the end of November.

Sulayem, who took over as FIA president in December last year, said: "Shaila-Ann has provided me with great support in respect to Formula 1, always acting with professionalism and integrity."

Rao joined the FIA in June from her previous post as special adviser to Mercedes F1 team principal Toto Wolff.

Her links to Mercedes caused concern at both Ferrari and Red Bull.

In particular, at the height of the cost-cap row, Red Bull raised questions about Rao and whether they had been targeted.

Red Bull team principal Christian Horner has said that it was Rao who called him shortly after Max Verstappen clinched his second world title at the Japanese Grand Prix to tell him officially that Red Bull had been found in breach of the financial regulations.'
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Old 25 Nov 2022, 14:21 (Ref:4134891)   #463
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All the teams were targeted. As everyone team is assessed.

Then Red Bull were targeted because they broke the rule.
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Old 25 Nov 2022, 18:35 (Ref:4134905)   #464
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All the teams were targeted. As everyone team is assessed.

Then Red Bull were targeted because they broke the rule.
Agree, no one team was specifically targeted from what we know.

Rao departing could be nothing to do with cost cap or anything like that - OR maybe (either by suspicion or fact) she was considered to be the cause of the leaking about guilty teams from the FIA some weeks prior to the actual announcements and is now "choosing to leave" as a result.
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Old 5 Feb 2023, 02:07 (Ref:4142761)   #465
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I am surprised nobody is talking about the 2026 power unit regulations and in particular that there will now be cost caps for power unit R&D.

I think much of this was released in August, but I think it was formalized yesterday.

Previously the cost to teams was set, but the amount of money each power unit manufacture might spend on R&D was unbounded. You could spend as much as you want and sell the engines under cost if you wanted to do so.

The 2026 power unit regulations, do things like remove the MGU-H, have a much more proscriptive ICE design (ICE is becoming more and more spec) and also tries to focus the creativity on the electric side, it also has limitations on the numbers and types of dynamometers that can be used and operational hours per year.

But I think the big news is the cost caps

These start in Jan 2023 are $95 Million USD annually through 2025 and then $130 Million USD 2026 and beyond. Just like the budget caps for the teams, there are exceptions for various things, but I think a key one is that manufacturing and servicing of customer engines is excluded. So this cap seems to be focused on R&D and not "production and support".

Here is a good summary...

https://www.f1technical.net/news/23930

Overall, I think this is why are you seeing someone like Ford agree to partner with Red Bull Powertrain. The new regulations are likely to prevent drastic performance differences, focus on the electric side as differentiators in solutions and ensure that development costs can be defined in advance. So someone like a Ford, Chevy, etc. can know going in what the maximum spend might be.

Is it a coincidence that when it was announced that the group of six power unit manufactures has signed up that at nearly the same time we hear about the Ford/RBPT link up? I think not.

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Old 5 Feb 2023, 07:40 (Ref:4142775)   #466
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At the end of the day we don't need expensive engines, keep things cheap and they will come. Manufacturers come and go, so there's no need to try and cater for them.
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Old 5 Feb 2023, 13:20 (Ref:4142795)   #467
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Is it a coincidence that when it was announced that the group of six power unit manufactures has signed up that at nearly the same time we hear about the Ford/RBPT link up? I think not.Richard

Who are the six?
I'm only aware of Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda/RBP in recent years.
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Old 5 Feb 2023, 13:40 (Ref:4142797)   #468
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Who are the six?
I'm only aware of Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda/RBP in recent years.
Alpine Racing.
Audi.
Ferrari S.p.A.
Honda Racing Corporation.
Mercedes-AMG High Performance Powertrains Ltd.
Red Bull Ford.


https://www.fia.com/news/fia-confirm...-registrations
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Old 5 Feb 2023, 18:41 (Ref:4142814)   #469
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Ah. OK.
I see Honda and Red Bull as the same and Audi haven't produced anything yet.
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Old 5 Feb 2023, 21:24 (Ref:4142822)   #470
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Ah. OK.
I see Honda and Red Bull as the same and Audi haven't produced anything yet.
Hopefully nobody has produced a 2026 power unit yet! And from a 2026 perspective, Honda and Red Bull are not the same.

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Old 5 Feb 2023, 23:07 (Ref:4142825)   #471
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Being pedantic RBPT took over the engine designed and built by Honda. Honda have not built a new competing engine to the current tech regs. To me, therefore, there are 4 current F1 engine manufacturers.
As for 2026 it's a long way off. Time will tell if Audi or Honda join the club.
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Old 6 Feb 2023, 00:50 (Ref:4142829)   #472
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Being pedantic RBPT took over the engine designed and built by Honda.
I don't believe that is correct at all and ask for evidence to support that position. I have some speculation and "reading between the lines" in my comments below, but generally you can find many statements from Red Bull/RBPT and Honda to back up my narrative.

At the very start of the partnership after Honda pulled out, there was lots of talk and public statements about RBPT taking more ownership of the power units including I believe assembly in RBPT locations. However this evolved with that level of transfer of responsibility to RBPT not happening and Honda continuing to own ongoing R&D, production, trackside support, etc. This was also discussed publicly by RBPT and Honda. Some of this pivot might be driven by the need for RBPT to be a "new" power unit supplier. In hindsight this was the start of an amicable divorce between RBPT and Honda. So really, while it's (meaning the current engine to run through end of 2025 season) run under the RBPT name, it's probably all or nearly all really Honda under the covers. Today, RBPT is focused building up their team and on 2026.

Many have broadly assumed that RBPT just somehow obtained the Honda power unit IP from Honda and it would be the basis for the 2026 RBPT solutions. No doubt RBPT has learned quite a bit from Honda, but in the end there is RBPT IP and Honda IP. They may even have some level of cross licensing. And that licensing (particularly around Honda to RBPT) is probably only through 2025, but either side will not give it away. They might sell it, but as both are serious about 2026, Honda is not going to do an IP deal with RBPT and vice versa. And even then, while RBPT can use the Honda engines today, I doubt the licensing is no more than "use of the product" and not full technical details. In short Honda has kept their "secret sauce" secret.

I expect that many thought that if Honda was coming back (if they really left) in 2026, they they would partner with RedBull. The problem is... Red Bull is committed to building their own units and not being beholden to someone else to provide power units. They want to play equal to Mercedes, etc. There was no 2026 Red Bull/Honda pairing even if they have had (and continue to have) an excellent partnership. Honda probably understands this so the two partners will just have to work in a more controlled fashion between now and 2026. Probably this is not a "now" thing, but probably has been accelerating over the past 12+ months. In short, it's no different than any other customer team. Customers don't know internal details of the engines provided to them.

This article talks to some of this...

https://racingnews365.com/chinese-wa...fter-ford-deal

Richard

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Old 6 Feb 2023, 07:14 (Ref:4142834)   #473
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I don't believe that is correct at all and ask for evidence to support that position. I have some speculation and "reading between the lines" in my comments below, but generally you can find many statements from Red Bull/RBPT and Honda to back up my narrative.

At the very start of the partnership after Honda pulled out, there was lots of talk and public statements about RBPT taking more ownership of the power units including I believe assembly in RBPT locations. However this evolved with that level of transfer of responsibility to RBPT not happening and Honda continuing to own ongoing R&D, production, trackside support, etc. This was also discussed publicly by RBPT and Honda. Some of this pivot might be driven by the need for RBPT to be a "new" power unit supplier. In hindsight this was the start of an amicable divorce between RBPT and Honda. So really, while it's (meaning the current engine to run through end of 2025 season) run under the RBPT name, it's probably all or nearly all really Honda under the covers. Today, RBPT is focused building up their team and on 2026.

Many have broadly assumed that RBPT just somehow obtained the Honda power unit IP from Honda and it would be the basis for the 2026 RBPT solutions. No doubt RBPT has learned quite a bit from Honda, but in the end there is RBPT IP and Honda IP. They may even have some level of cross licensing. And that licensing (particularly around Honda to RBPT) is probably only through 2025, but either side will not give it away. They might sell it, but as both are serious about 2026, Honda is not going to do an IP deal with RBPT and vice versa. And even then, while RBPT can use the Honda engines today, I doubt the licensing is no more than "use of the product" and not full technical details. In short Honda has kept their "secret sauce" secret.

I expect that many thought that if Honda was coming back (if they really left) in 2026, they they would partner with RedBull. The problem is... Red Bull is committed to building their own units and not being beholden to someone else to provide power units. They want to play equal to Mercedes, etc. There was no 2026 Red Bull/Honda pairing even if they have had (and continue to have) an excellent partnership. Honda probably understands this so the two partners will just have to work in a more controlled fashion between now and 2026. Probably this is not a "now" thing, but probably has been accelerating over the past 12+ months. In short, it's no different than any other customer team. Customers don't know internal details of the engines provided to them.

This article talks to some of this...

https://racingnews365.com/chinese-wa...fter-ford-deal

Richard
I would agree with you Richard.

RBR is not in partnership beyond 2025 so Honda is either guarding its prospects of a continuation in 2026, or simply guarding its right to have a say or gather information regarding the 2026 regulations.
They cannot be discounted from having a role after the end of the current engine formula any more than Renault/Alpine, Ferrari or AMG/Mercedes could be discounted.
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Old 6 Feb 2023, 09:51 (Ref:4142849)   #474
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morninggents should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I agree with all that Richard has said. Also that his original comments were aimed at 2026 season and beyond.


My only point is that, at the moment and also during the period of the current engine regulations there are only Mercedes, Renault, Ferrari and Red Bull PT (nee Honda) actively involved with F1 engines. I totally agree that although called Red Bull PT their engine is really Honda.
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Old 6 Feb 2023, 11:29 (Ref:4142853)   #475
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Originally Posted by morninggents View Post
I agree with all that Richard has said. Also that his original comments were aimed at 2026 season and beyond.


My only point is that, at the moment and also during the period of the current engine regulations there are only Mercedes, Renault, Ferrari and Red Bull PT (nee Honda) actively involved with F1 engines. I totally agree that although called Red Bull PT their engine is really Honda.
Sounds like we are on the same page. I misunderstood what you were saying earlier,

Richard
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