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Old 14 Sep 2019, 05:07 (Ref:3927843)   #51
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Originally Posted by Tourer View Post
Whilst in an ideal world you'd be right, when it comes to driving standards, various decisions / approaches / restrictions are discussed at driver briefings and changes are made on a rolling basis.

If for example, the driver group has an issue with a driver changing lines in the braking zone and not being penalised and the much greater risk overall if all of them start doing it, restrictions and allowances are changed to prevent a problem.

Or if the consensus in the briefing room and through the sport is that a particular incident was not handled well and is over-regulation then the FIA might agree to loosen the shackles somewhat for future races.

In most cases, the changes are relatively subtle and shouldn't wait for an entire season to be run to be rectified, sometimes from a sporting point of view, sometimes from a risk management point of view.

If a decision is a "bad" one, it makes no sense to keep making the same bad decision in the same circumstances purely for the sake of consistency.
Good points.

They really need permanent stewards, a record of decisions and agreed changes to ensure a transparent process.

I would bet my bottom dollar that Vettel would not have been granted a free pass if he exhibited the behavior Charles did at Monza.

The decision not to penalize Vettel in qualifying was pretty awkward given
Appendix L 2.c) above!
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Old 14 Sep 2019, 08:27 (Ref:3927862)   #52
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Of course it must have been harder for the stewards to punish a Ferrari driver leading at Monza. It wasn't such a problem to punish Vettel since he was already out of the points
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Old 14 Sep 2019, 13:36 (Ref:3927907)   #53
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I think this is what you are looking for Richard?
Yes, thanks wnut.

I expected it to be relatively compact and concise, but it's very brief. I expected some text that addressed relative car positions front to rear.

To my point earlier about where to start and stop painted lines, I think things like where the "corner" and " approach to the corner" are located are very fuzzy and clearly would be different by series (car capabilities) and even conditions within a series (dry vs wet given changes in braking distances for example may lengthen the definition of corner or approach to the corner.)

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Old 25 Sep 2019, 03:59 (Ref:3930007)   #54
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From the steward’s judgement into the DQ of Ricciardo in Singapore:

“Notwithstanding the team’s arguments, the Stewards take note of the very clear wording of Article 1.2.2 ISC, which states that “If an Automobile is found not to comply with the applicable technical regulations, it shall be no defense to claim that no performance advantage was obtained” file:///C:/Users/Claire/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/INetCache/IE/6BXBQ32G/doc_30_-_2019_singapore_grand_prix_-_offence_-_car_3_mgu-k_power_limit_0.pdf

Article 1.2.2 of the ISC reads as follows:

ARTICLE 1.2 INTERNATIONAL SPORTING CODE
1.2.1 So that the above powers may be exercised in a fair and equitable manner the FIA has drawn up the International Sporting Code, which includes all appendices thereto.


1.2.2 The purpose of the Code is to regulate, encourage and facilitate motor sport.

1.2.3 It will never be enforced so as to prevent or impede a Competition or the participation of a Competitor, save where the FIA concludes that this is necessary for the safe, fair or orderly conduct of motor sport.

file:///C:/Users/Claire/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/INetCache/IE/6BXBQ32G/international_sporting_code_-_2019_engfra_-_clean_version.pdf

How does this work?
Help!
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Old 25 Sep 2019, 04:41 (Ref:3930009)   #55
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On the last several years of stewards' decisions, I have no idea why this is Rogro's fault. He was alongside all the way, and was certainly crowded off the track, where is the car's width?

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Old 25 Sep 2019, 10:52 (Ref:3930042)   #56
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On the last several years of stewards' decisions, I have no idea why this is Rogro's fault. He was alongside all the way, and was certainly crowded off the track, where is the car's width?

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Your joking right?

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Old 25 Sep 2019, 11:08 (Ref:3930044)   #57
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I think he's winding us up......
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Old 25 Sep 2019, 15:01 (Ref:3930067)   #58
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I think he's winding us up......
I was just making sure.

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Old 26 Sep 2019, 22:58 (Ref:3930279)   #59
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Your joking right?

Richard

The point was that the stewards seem to justify anything with the "data".

Incorrectly quoting the rules above would also appear to be a thing,
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Old 24 Oct 2019, 06:18 (Ref:3936505)   #60
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For an insight into the person who Michael Masi is and his approach generally, this "Rusty's Garage" podcast is worth listening to.
It goes for over an hour and a half but the F1 side is covered mostly from 1 hour onwards - prior to that is discussion about his background in Australia - Super Touring, V8 Supercars, Rally Australia etc.
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Old 27 Oct 2019, 23:01 (Ref:3937213)   #61
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So let's consider a proper penalty. Max Verstappen improves his time under yellow flags whilst my Mexican marshalling colleagues are trackside. He then boasts of it in the driver's conference. He gets a three place grid penalty. For putting people's lives at risk, let's not beat about the bush with this.

If it was down to me, he'd have spent Sunday on a marshal's post having donated his salary to the marshals' club. Preferably on the post which he so carelessly disregarded.

Complete and utter knob.
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Old 27 Oct 2019, 23:16 (Ref:3937215)   #62
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It would appear to me that there are certain drivers who have failed to learn anything from the tragic accident that befell young Bianchi. It would seem as though they feel that the rules shouldn't or even don't apply to them, and that they can put their lives and others at risk without giving it a second thought.

As Wooley says, he should have been banned for at least one race for his behaviour and his stinking attitude. Maybe then drivers would sit up and follow instructions from flag marshals who have the drivers' best interests at heart, after all.
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Old 28 Oct 2019, 00:21 (Ref:3937223)   #63
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It would appear to me that there are certain drivers who have failed to learn anything from the tragic accident that befell young Bianchi. It would seem as though they feel that the rules shouldn't or even don't apply to them, and that they can put their lives and others at risk without giving it a second thought.

As Wooley says, he should have been banned for at least one race for his behaviour and his stinking attitude. Maybe then drivers would sit up and follow instructions from flag marshals who have the drivers' best interests at heart, after all.
I commented on the penalty in the race thread and I kept my comment very brief, but I also came very close to mentioning Bianchi as I also feel the comparison is a good one.

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Old 28 Oct 2019, 00:56 (Ref:3937228)   #64
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So let's consider a proper penalty. Max Verstappen improves his time under yellow flags whilst my Mexican marshalling colleagues are trackside. He then boasts of it in the driver's conference. He gets a three place grid penalty. For putting people's lives at risk, let's not beat about the bush with this.

If it was down to me, he'd have spent Sunday on a marshal's post having donated his salary to the marshals' club. Preferably on the post which he so carelessly disregarded.

Complete and utter knob.
Agree - particularly with your last sentence.

It's not uncommon for drivers and trackside officials to have differing views on slowing for a yellow flag and how much slower is OK - if not judged to have slowed enough, the grid penalty MAY have been reasonable.

However, to go faster in a yellow flag zone AND then boast about it and dismiss the need to go slower in interviews afterwards - that is pure knob-jockey behaviour and is deserving of having his chain pulled - hard. Having him sit out the race, or removing a swathe of points & start from pit lane or as you suggest, sit it out and marshal for the race, all seem commensurate to me.

Did he lose of his licence points as well as the grid position drop?
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Old 28 Oct 2019, 07:48 (Ref:3937272)   #65
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It does seem strange that after recent heavy penalties handed out in the last few races, that he only got a very small penalty for behaviour that put others at risk. Not sure i would go as far as others on here but his attitude in the interview did not help his case.
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Old 28 Oct 2019, 08:33 (Ref:3937283)   #66
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The driving and the interview are two separate issues. They only combine in that the latter is additional evidence for the former.

With regard to the first, I think Woolley may be going a bit far, but still ignoring yellow flags is a serious issue. It's not for the driver to judge how serious the incident is. There is a yellow flag; slow down. My preferred penalty would have been to have all Verstappen's qualifying times deleted and send him to the back of the grid.

With regard to the interview, we all know that he is an arrogant little ****. His father has trained him to be arrogant and self-centred from a very young age. I think this should be dealt with separately under the "bringing the sport into disrepute" umbrella (though really he was mostly bringing himself into disrepute).
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Old 29 Oct 2019, 11:18 (Ref:3937459)   #67
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Drivers are not only ruining it for themselves by ignoring yellow flags, they are also making it harder for the fans, by making themselves open to penalties. It's about time more drivers slowed for yellows. Mind you with VSCs and SCs, I guess some don't feel it's worth backing off anymore, which is wrong
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Old 29 Oct 2019, 12:02 (Ref:3937464)   #68
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Whatever Max Verstappen had said wouldn't have made any difference as he well knew because of the telemetry . I think the arrogance issue was the main thing with the "powers that be"
Being an ex racer I have missed yellow flags with another car to the side but obviously this wasn't the case as we can all see from the comfort of our sofas.

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Old 30 Oct 2019, 08:36 (Ref:3937582)   #69
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Whatever Max Verstappen had said wouldn't have made any difference as he well knew because of the telemetry . I think the arrogance issue was the main thing with the "powers that be"
Being an ex racer I have missed yellow flags with another car to the side but obviously this wasn't the case as we can all see from the comfort of our sofas.
On a qualifying lap when light boxes are active and the yellow flag (not the primary warning system) is being displayed contrary to what the light boxes are indicating, and in your peripheral vision on the opposite side of the track to the apex of the corner. I think Max has every reason to have missed this signal.
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Old 30 Oct 2019, 08:50 (Ref:3937586)   #70
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That's the excuse used by every club racer ever - "I didn't see the flag."

The response by the clerk of the course is always the same - "you should have seen it. No excuse."

If this penalty starts a discussion in the UK about the positioning of marshal posts and the visibility of flags, then it's done us all a service.



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Old 30 Oct 2019, 09:16 (Ref:3937590)   #71
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On a qualifying lap when light boxes are active and the yellow flag (not the primary warning system) is being displayed contrary to what the light boxes are indicating, and in your peripheral vision on the opposite side of the track to the apex of the corner. I think Max has every reason to have missed this signal.
But he didn't miss it. He was told on the radio about it, and he didn't say he missed it - he said he didn't slow down because he knew what he was doing.

No boxes isn't an excuse. You obey the flag before the box. The FIA put that one to rest years ago.
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Old 30 Oct 2019, 11:18 (Ref:3937618)   #72
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That's the excuse used by every club racer ever - "I didn't see the flag."

The response by the clerk of the course is always the same - "you should have seen it. No excuse."

If this penalty starts a discussion in the UK about the positioning of marshal posts and the visibility of flags, then it's done us all a service.

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I agree with the standard response, however I think that the discussion about the flag points would be good, this flag point position is frankly bizarre, it would be much better situated right where Bottas hit the end of the protective barrier. The driver, Max here should be trying to look across the apex down the track as far as possible, he is doing, 120 mph?, and the flag is positioned out of his line of sight.

I take your point about the FIA position on light boxes Akro, but it is difficult to follow out of position flags when you are expecting light boxes.
There is a large difference between dishing out penalties and adjusting a system so it is actually as safe as possible.

Max's engineer is not a marshal, so I guess his input is not all that relevant. Ideally the light box should have been triggered and Max should have responded, and there are several failures including Max that lead to this - (probably the penalty was about right in the end. and he was lucky not to get a worse one.
The system does however need work.

Are the flags displayed on the car's dash/wheel?
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Old 30 Oct 2019, 11:45 (Ref:3937623)   #73
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The engineers input is 100% relevant. Max has been told a car in front of him has crashed. A yellow flag, debris field, and broken car confirms it. Max ignored it all. He didn't miss it - he chose not to slow down.
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Old 30 Oct 2019, 13:07 (Ref:3937632)   #74
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The engineers input is 100% relevant. Max has been told a car in front of him has crashed. A yellow flag, debris field, and broken car confirms it. Max ignored it all. He didn't miss it - he chose not to slow down.
Nail - Head interface successfully achieved! Max made the decision to drive past the crash scene, one he'd been told about and one he could (partially) see, without even lifting...
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Old 30 Oct 2019, 18:18 (Ref:3937696)   #75
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It doesn't matter how hard anyone tries, the bottom line is that his behaviour was inexcusable (in the car) and downright puerile (out of it).
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