General Sportscar Chat thread

[TF110]

Looks nice! A few things might not fly with the rules though. The first might be the diveplanes forming a wing shape by being attached to the aero devices on the front splitter. The rear wing endplates would be against the rules as well. Then the cheese wedge shaped things on the rear look a little awkward, not sure how that would be viewed though!

[FstrthnU]

http://www.rwd-design.com/164261/158...rwd-p30-6-lmp1
So here's the actual website for that car. RWD Motorsports P30.

I've also seen it listed as the "Marek PM06a" (may have been the earlier designation)

3.0L flat six single-turbo, "Pneumatic hybrid system"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcMToMbbtZo
Video of the thing in action at Bathurst

[Deleted]

(couldn't think of better thread to put this)

Another graph of mine, for the evolution of the ALMS entry numbers (please zoom to make sense)... not sure if anyone is even viewing these but whatever

compare LMP to DP if you wish

[Deleted]

Looks like it keeps disappearing so here's just the URL
http://postimg.org/image/tax7w5odn/full/

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Bit of a history question: I seem to remember having read about a series proposed for 1999 that would have combined the remnants of FIA GT1 with prototype entries from Audi, BMW, etc.

Thing is that I can't find any information whatsoever about plans for such a series on the internet, so I am beginning to wonder if I didn't just make that up.

So, does anyone know if plans for such a series really existed and if so why they didn't get off the ground?

Yes! I remember reading about that championship on Sportscarworld, (one of) the forerunners of DSC (even gone thru the print outs I still had from 99-00 news items earlier this year before I tossed them).

IIRC it was to be the successor of the FIA GT1 championship with new sportscars from Audi and BMW joining the Mercedes, Porsche and Panoz GTPs in a new World Championship (not sure if it was called a WC or series or whatever). It never took off, probably because of the cost involved and when Porsche withdraw from the GT championship at the end of '98 and not much later cancelled their new sportscar, Mercedes quickly followed too, leaving Audi and BMW to focus on the new born ALMS.

Or something like that, correct me if I'm wrong.

Just like you, I can't find anything on it on the net. It wasn't John Mangoletsi's International Sports Racing Series (which evolved into the FIA Sportscar Championship) that run from 1997 to 2003 (and which was succeeded by the LMES-now ELMS in 2004), so much is sure.

[Coach Ep]

This link provides a little info:

For 1999, the FIA GT series has been split into the FIA GT series (for GT2 cars) and the FIA Prototype Cup for GT1s and WSC cars. So far, however, only Mercedes have shown any interest in running in the Prototype cup, as Porsche have withdrawn from all sportscar racing for a year, to see how the future regulations shape up. Ferrari have Ok'd updates to the 333SP, but have shown no desire to take on Mercedes on two fronts.

http://www.sportscar-racing.thesaxbys.co.uk/98races.htm

Now at least we know the name again!

Edit: the full name was FIA International Prototype Cup, referred to as IPC.

+

There was also this post from 2004:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=871037

-----
Ok, found this in one of John Brooks' splendid articles - it pretty much tells it all:

The GT1 category had a fin de siècle feel in the heat and humidity of Japan that year, exaggerated by the rumours that the FIA GT Championship, 1999 style, would be for GT2 cars only. Having invested heavily in this form of competition, Mercedes Benz were keen to go racing somewhere other than Le Mans in the following season. A month or two later we were all dragooned into a press conference in beautiful downtown Miami-Homestead Speedway. Stéphane Ratel was at his charismatic and visionary best, revealing the proposed FIA International Prototype Championship that would pit Mercedes against Porsche and possibly Toyota, Nissan and Audi. The factory contingent would be padded out by a motley crew of GT1/GT2 survivors and prototype inductees who would be press ganged in from the newly formed International Sports Racing Series. The problem was that there were not enough of the true believers, heretics and cynics were found at every turn

Mango’s Barmy Army in the ISRS may have earned their title many times over, but even daft as they were, they would not fancy a regular drubbing from the Silver Arrows, no matter how good or guaranteed the start money was. Look at how AMG annhilated the Porsche Werks effort in ’98, the score ended up at 10-0 in Stuttgart’s favour. Porsche’s Le Mans prototype project was about to be killed off by Dr. Wendelin Wiedeking, the CEO, who preferred to invest the cash in Porsche’s new light truck range, the Cayenne. Those of us with true grit gave him the raspberry at the time but he had the last laugh when the multitudes with questionable taste queued round the block to pay full price for this odd vision of a Porsche. PT Barnum really knew what he was talking about. Toyota had another cunning plan in mind in their quest to spend riches of Croesus on mediocre motorsport, go to Formula One. Nissan fired TWR after Le Mans 1998 and then realised that they were bust in all but name, so motorsport went out the window. Audi were in no hurry to tangle with their German rivals, reasoning that they had much to learn about the sport of driving long distances fast. So the IPC was a dead duck almost from the start and then the newly formed ALMS became the potential target for AMG and Mercedes. The aviation disasters at La Sarthe the following June extinguished that dream.

full article here: http://www.doubledeclutch.com/?tag=fia-gt-championship

Interesting quote when it comes to Mercedes eyeing the ALMS in '99!

------
(I'll just keep adding info that keeps coming up)

PARIS, FRANCE - RIS - (Courtesy FIA) - The World Motor Sport Council met in Monaco on 11 December 1998 to examine the proposals submitted by the different Commissions. The following (Grand Touring) decisions were taken: The FIA Sports Prototype Championship announced by the World Motor Sport Council of 15 October 1998 will be kenown as the FIA International Prototype Cup (IPC). The IPC will be run provided the FIA has firm undertakings that at least 20 cars will participate. The deadline is 15 February 1999.

Two categories of cars will be eligible to participate in the Cup: Closed Prototypes (former GT1 cars), and Open Prototypes. Detailed sporting and technical regulations of the 1999 FIA GT Championship and the 1999 FIA International Prototype Cup will be published in the FIA Bulletin of January 1999. The calendar will be confirmed in February.

TECHNICAL REGULATIONS
* The minimum weight for GT cars will be 1100 kg (previously 900 kg)
* The maximum capacity of the fuel tanks is set at 100 litres for the GT cars and 90 litres for both Closed and Open Prototypes
* The homologation of GT cars with a carbon chassis will be prohibited as from 1 January 2000
* Vehicles currently homologated in GT1 cannot apply for rehomologation in GT as from 1 January 1999.

(from: http://forums.audiworld.com/motorspo...3/#post2921024

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

This link provides a little info:
http://www.sportscar-racing.thesaxbys.co.uk/98races.htm

Now at least we know the name again!

Edit: the full name was FIA International Prototype Cup, referred to as IPC.

+

There was also this post from 2004:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=871037
Ok, found this in one of John Brooks' splendid articles - it pretty much tells it all:
full article here: http://www.doubledeclutch.com/?tag=fia-gt-championship
Interesting quote when it comes to Mercedes eyeing the ALMS in '99!

Indeed!
Taking that thought a bit further. If they where eyeing ALMS in 1999 for the 2000 season, there certainly must have been a LMP900 car on the drawing board, and in the wind tunnels. Perhaps even as far as the Porsche 9R3 LMP!?
Will that project ever surface?

[Coach Ep]

I believe the plan in 1999 was to bring their latest CLK's over to the States after Le Mans as the IPC never materialized and M-B wanted to do more than just 1 race that year.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

I believe the plan in 1999 was to bring their latest CLK's over to the States after Le Mans as the IPC never materialized and M-B wanted to do more than just 1 race that year.

It that case it would have run as a LMP GTP, a category proven to be difficult to be competitive in.

But just speculation of course

[Coach Ep]

More on the fall of the IPC (in German, by another great 10/10s contributor!):

IPC - Die Gründe des Scheiterns
Der International Prototype Cup ist tot. Noch vor Beginn der ersten Saison teilte die FIA am 17,2 "bedauernd mit, daß nach Ablauf der Nennfrist nicht genügend Nennungen eingegangen sind. Daher wird der IPC 1999 nicht ausgerichtet."

Rest of story: http://www.gt-eins.de/Forums-Features/FF1_IPC.htm

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Interesting quote when it comes to Mercedes eyeing the ALMS in '99!

And here is the - more or less - quote all but confirming the plans:

Certainly AMG Mercedes Benz had their eyes on North America, as their charming Motorsport Supremo, Norbert Haug, put it. "We are channelling most of our efforts towards Le Mans, after which we will compete in selected international races later in the season. These will be perhaps in the American Le Mans Series………….."

(once again thx to Brooksie for providing the info: http://www.speedhunters.com/2010/05/...black_sheep_3/)

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by CTD

It that case it would have run as a LMP GTP, a category proven to be difficult to be competitive in.

But just speculation of course

GTP was merged into LMP and had only 1 seasonal entrant, the Champion Racing Porsche 911-GT1, joined towards the end of the year for the Laguna Seca race by the British Sintura.

I believe Mercedes would have dominated the post LM season in the ALMS - even if that had to fall back on their older CLK models. But you're right, that's only speculation!

Edit: small correction re the model names of the cars: the 1997 + 1998 ones were CLK's (GTR, LM) , in 1999 the infamous CLR was raced.

And maybe RLM could ask Mark Webber about the whole plan as he was one of the unlucky pilots that year at Le Mans, it certainly would make a great story in one the Midweek Motorsport WEC preview shows!

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

More on the fall of the IPC (in German, by another great 10/10s contributor!):



Rest of story: http://www.gt-eins.de/Forums-Features/FF1_IPC.htm

Wow, that article pretty damning for the FIA, Mercedes and Ratel... they really screwed up by the numbers back then, didn't they? I'd always thought that Mercedes had simply outspent the opposition, but I had no ideas about the behind the scenes stuff...

[Coach Ep]

History could repeat itself, Ratel has to be very aware of the level of factory involvement in his Blancpain series, only this time Audi is performing the Mercedes role...

[TF110]

I wish those CLR's would have ran in alms. Too bad it never happened.

[Cuttlefish]

Originally Posted by Chiana

(couldn't think of better thread to put this)

Another graph of mine, for the evolution of the ALMS entry numbers (please zoom to make sense)... not sure if anyone is even viewing these but whatever

compare LMP to DP if you wish

Thanks for your sharing your work Chiana, really enjoyed these!

Some interesting thoughts/suggestions after looking at ALMS and Grand-Am: Would be interesting to see Daytona/Sebring/PLM (and maybe Laguna in certain years) removed to get a cleaner feel of full season entries. Perhaps combine P1 and P2, and maybe plot GAGT too? I know the events are disparate, but perhaps add some gaps and plot Grand-Am vs ALMS on the same vertical axis with different horizontal axis?

Would be really fun to scrape racingsportscars and put together an interactive site/graph... maybe a future weekend project...

[Deleted]

Thanks, might try that more direct ALMS-GA comparison at some point

[CTD]

Tom Kristensen has been conferred a Knight's Cross of the Order of the Dannebrog. ('Dannebrogskorset') of Her Royal Highness Queen Margrethe II of Denmark.
So in English speak, I think the new title is Sir Tom Kristensen. (All though these titles isn't used in danish)

[chernaudi]

Probably more like Tom Kristensen MBE or OBE (Member of the British Empire or (member of the) Order of the British Empire), which is like half a step down from full knighthood, though I'm not as familiar with how the Danes do the knighthood/Order of the Empire equivalency.

For example, David Gilmour from Pink Floyd was never officially knighted but he was awarded a OBE.

[J Jay]

From what I can glean from (ahem) Wikipedia, chernaudi has it right; this (Knight or Knight 1st Class?) would be more equivalent to an MBE than a knighthood. Although the higher Danish honours seem much more restrictive than ours in the UK.

CTD, what's the highest honour TK could receive, given that Grand Commander/Elephant order/etc. seem to be the sole preserve of heads of state and distinguished public servants?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Probably more like Tom Kristensen MBE or OBE (Member of the British Empire or (member of the) Order of the British Empire), which is like half a step down from full knighthood, though I'm not as familiar with how the Danes do the knighthood/Order of the Empire equivalency.
For example, David Gilmour from Pink Floyd was never officially knighted but he was awarded a OBE.

Originally Posted by J Jay

From what I can glean from (ahem) Wikipedia, chernaudi has it right; this (Knight or Knight 1st Class?) would be more equivalent to an MBE than a knighthood. Although the higher Danish honours seem much more restrictive than ours in the UK.
CTD, what's the highest honour TK could receive, given that Grand Commander/Elephant order/etc. seem to be the sole preserve of heads of state and distinguished public servants?

The Grand Commander (Grand-Croix) is for noble person only, and is the highest possible title within the Order of the Dannebrog, so this is impossible.
In reality the greatest order a civil danish citizen can be given is the Knights Cross of the Order of the Dannebrog.
Even though there isn't a direct Knighting in Denmark which qualifies for the title "Sir". The Knights Cross is the highest honour you can earn, and in that way comparable.
The order of the Elephant is very unique to be given as a civil person, but is often given to head of states, and is therefor not as rare as The Knights Cross of the Order of the Dannebrog.

The only persons who carries a "prefix" to their names is the members of the royal family.

[chernaudi]

As I mentioned, in the UK Tom would probably have a "suffix" to his name, not a "prefix". Becoming a MBE in the UK (which is sorta what happened to TK in Denmark) isn't a direct knighthood, but he'd become a "Member of the Officers of the Empire", which is a noble title not directly tied into to actual knighthood.

This was bound to happen to Tom at some point, as he's probably the most famous sports person in Denmark in this era.

[chernaudi]

Chrysler/Dodge and SRT remain independent: Volkswagen aborted the Fiat purchase.

[Deleted]

Found this good old article on 2006 ALMS GT1 BoP

http://archive.dailysportscar.com/su...ualisation.htm

It is interesting that what was considered by a "MESS" & "DAMPER" & "CONTROVERSY" & "TIRING" & "made series look bad" by DSC and everybody affected (except AMR of course) back then is now as commonly accepted as the only way to go by most, and in much more extreme way than in GTE... times have really changed haven't they because what happened in 06 ALMS was really quite extraordiary in comparison to rest of the GT1 & GT2 years (except SRO) yet now it happens every year, every race, every GT category

Interesting quotes by Fehan there, amongst others

“We’ve been here since 1999, and we have always raced straight up. But not this year. It was not straight up at all… I do have to say that lost in all of this was that Pirelli did an amazing job developing their tires for the Astons. Their huge advances were overshadowed by all of the regulation changes. If we are to come back, and they are too (Aston Martin), I would like to be able to go at it straight up, as per the ACO regulations. I do think that if we were to leave the series, you’d see about 20 cars show up in the GT1 class next year

“When I saw what was happening, the direction that we were headed, I warned the officials that they had better watch out. They were setting a precedent that could bite them in the future.

Alsom while IMSA didn't know back then that AMR was not to return to ALMS in 07, they were already suggesting going back to BoP being only applied only couple of times per year if necessary, as it should

So where does this leave everybody, now that the season is over? Fehan had earlier stated, “If we can’t find a forum to race here (in the ALMS) that is consistent with our mission statement, which is to showcase the durability, reliability and performance of the Corvette, we need to go somewhere where we can.” He continued to explain that unless there is a firm plan by the ALMS to return to the ACO based regulations, upon which the Corvette C6.R was homologated, expect to see the team racing elsewhere in 2007. Aston Martin is rumored to be returning with a different tire manufacturer and IMSA has stated that there will be more consistency in the regulations in the future. No longer will there be weekly changes in the regulations. Doug Robinson verified that “the regulations will be reviewed during the season and our intention is to make adjustments one third and two thirds of the way through the season. Our intention is to let them race, but if we see a trend that one team is dominant, then something has to be taken away. We will support the FIA/ACO regulations, but we will also adjust as needed. We do have the approval of the ACO to make adjustments to our regulations before the season starts. And that is not just in GT1 either.”

Which would never ever happen now in GT racing

[JoestForEver]

Words from Robinson basically say that do whatever you want, but we will stick to the BoP-crap to make everyone else happy by whipping the best player, while pretending to follow the ACO regs, sort of.