The Historically Accurate EV discussion

[crmalcolm]

1,000 DC-charging sites: Now the German government is building superchargers

'There are not enough chargers, and the threat of cues looms large. Besides, there are the known deficits, clearly identified by the National Centre for Charging Infrastructure: According to a working paper, the customer is confronted with isolated applications, high unreliability, inconsistent information and different user interfaces. The solution to the problem: NOW’s National Centre for Charging Infrastructure is preparing the tender for a gigantic rapid charging network together with the Federal Ministry of Transport (BMVI).'

[crmalcolm]

Tesla secures massive new Megapack project that replaces gas peaker plant

'Tesla has secured a massive new Megapack project that is being deployed in lieu of a planned gas peaker plant in California.


Peaker plants are power plants that electric utilities only turn on to briefly provide power during peak demand.

They are costly and polluting.

Tesla aims to help replace them and avoid building new ones with battery packs used as stationary energy storage.

The idea is that giant battery systems would charge from the grid when demand is low and discharge at peak demand to help reduce the peak of power production.'

[crmalcolm]

West Coast States Are Teaming Up to Build an Electric Highway

'The West Coast is preparing for a future where giant diesel transport trucks go electric. Utilities and state agencies in California, Oregon, and Washington announced a plan to transform highway infrastructure that would speed the transition.'

[Peter Mallett]

Just to be clear the "gas" in the peaker plants is diesel.

[S griffin]

Is it bio diesel though?

[Peter Mallett]

Not entirely sue of the relevance. Either it's burning a fuel or its using a battery. My point was that the word "gas" is used for petrol or Diesel in the US. As opposed to a gas fired plant running on LNG.

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Not entirely sue of the relevance. Either it's burning a fuel or its using a battery. My point was that the word "gas" is used for petrol or Diesel in the US. As opposed to a gas fired plant running on LNG.

This is a link to the diesel generators that they use in California .
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...keep-lights-on

La La land has a recent history of blackouts . Since the politicians there have gone down the renewable energy route , they do not have enough power to keep the lights on even in the summer .
The idea of the battery backup is just total Green rubbish , costing about , [ relative to the S Australia one ], £ 150 million . And would last about 20 seconds supplying the whole grid , then would need charging up again for days until it could work again .
But they also need a lot of extra generation capacity , which , at the moment is 450 MWh from diesel generators .

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I thought global warming was a scam though?

How can something that doesn't exist be aggravated?

I thought for a moment there you had actually posted something that was right .
But I think you are just having another go at me because I pointed out what the study said , & not what you tried to claim it meant .

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

But they also need a lot of extra generation capacity , which , at the moment is 450 MWh from diesel generators .

Which is exactly what the Strata Solar battery system is - a 100 MW/400 MWh battery energy storage system.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

I thought for a moment there you had actually posted something that was right .
But I think you are just having another go at me because I pointed out what the study said , & not what you tried to claim it meant .

Yes - you brought an article referring to a study into this thread to attack the 'green lies'. A study which suggests that:

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

" EVs aggravate Global Warming if current Electricity mix is used as a basis "

You have also told us

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

The idea that CO2 has any measurable effect on the Climate has been the only thing that the AGM lobby have in their desperate attempt to con the public .
But despite huge amounts of money on offer & possible Nobel prizes , not 1 Scientist has been able to find a single fact supporting that claim .

and that

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

the whole idea of the Global Warming / Climate Change scam [...] , [one]no has managed to find one single fact that proves CO2 causes any measurable effect on climate .

Which leads me to ask - what is the point you were trying to make with the Business Insider link yesterday?

It appears that you are claiming:
A- there is no such thing as Global Warming
B- CO2 emissions do not contribute to Global Warming
C- EVs are bad for the environment because they lead to an increase in CO2 emissions

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Which is exactly what the Strata Solar battery system is - a 100 MW/400 MWh battery energy storage system.

So is it just a battery storage , or is it a Solar generator .
The Californian PG&E energy company built " The Worlds Most Advanced " solar generating plant in the Ivanpah desert .Cost 2.2 $Billion . Will never make enough energy to pay for itself , will probably have to close down if it does not get more State , [ Taxpayer ], handouts , & even now has to use a lot of gas turbines to get any energy going through the first part of the day .

Just another green energy scam as shown up by Michael Moores film .

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Yes - you brought an article referring to a study into this thread to attack the 'green lies'. A study which suggests that:


You have also told us
and that


Which leads me to ask - what is the point you were trying to make with the Business Insider link yesterday?

It appears that you are claiming:
A- there is no such thing as Global Warming
B- CO2 emissions do not contribute to Global Warming
C- EVs are bad for the environment because they lead to an increase in CO2 emissions

I did not claim that EVs are bad for the Environment .
I was pointing out that the claim that they were good for the Environment is just more propaganda to try to justify something that is very expensive & will not do the same job as a lot of other vehicles .
But as usual , you attack anything that does not suit your agenda .

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

So is it just a battery storage , or is it a Solar generator .

Where do you get the idea it is a solar generator from?

“Strata Solar today announced its landmark battery project, Ventura Energy Storage (VES), a 100-megawatt, 400-megawatt hour battery energy storage system in unincorporated Ventura County, California, has completed pre-construction development. The Project, developed by Strata, has awarded an Engineering, Procurement and Construction (EPC) contract to Tesla (NASDAQ: TSLA) for the state-of-the-art Megapack battery system. Construction, using local union labor, is scheduled to commence in July 2020.”

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Where do you get the idea it is a solar generator from?

“Strata Solar today announced its landmark battery project, Ventura Energy Storage (VES), a 100-megawatt, 400-megawatt hour battery energy storage system in unincorporated Ventura County, California, has completed pre-construction development. The Project, developed by Strata, has awarded an Engineering, Procurement and Construction (EPC) contract to Tesla (NASDAQ: TSLA) for the state-of-the-art Megapack battery system. Construction, using local union labor, is scheduled to commence in July 2020.”

There you go again .
I said that they need EXTRA GENERATION CAPACITY.
And you said that is exactly what the Strata Solar Battery system is .

[grantp]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Where do you get the idea it is a solar generator from?

“Strata Solar today announced its landmark battery project, Ventura Energy Storage (VES), a 100-megawatt, 400-megawatt hour battery energy storage system in unincorporated Ventura County, California, has completed pre-construction development. The Project, developed by Strata, has awarded an Engineering, Procurement and Construction (EPC) contract to Tesla (NASDAQ: TSLA) for the state-of-the-art Megapack battery system. Construction, using local union labor, is scheduled to commence in July 2020.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/profile/company/0052448D:US

They are a Solar installation outfit that has obtained an opportunity to build a solar farm with a battery attached to it. They have contracted Tesla to do the battery stuff.

So the battery will recharge during the day and then be in some sort of position to offer some sort of output at night. Probably, like that other Tesla installation in Aus (although that was wind backed), mostly to do with network stability 'cos that renewables generation requires faster responding and more frequent intervention then previous systems and they can make more money with satisfying that demand than they could ever do with attempting to deliver regular power supply. For the time being.

Apparently they have 350 employees and 1700 part time contractors.

[crmalcolm]

So EVs....

For Lotus, electric is the ultimate technology for sports cars

'EV is really well suited to sports cars — the torque characteristics, the weight distribution, design, and flexibility of dynamics. For me, it all leads to BEV as the ultimate technology for sports cars.

The other thing with EV sports cars is the distribution of weight. Batteries are flexible. You aren’t trying to build a car around some big componentry such as gearboxes and engines, so that gives you some flexibility.'

[crmalcolm]

These 29 EVs all exceeded their advertised ranges

https://thenextweb.com/shift/2020/06...00-wltp-range/

One of the biggest concerns for new electric vehicle buyers is how far they can drive on one charge of the battery. Manufacturers quote estimated “real-world” ranges, but these aren’t always accurate. As it turns out, some manufacturers underestimate what their vehicles are capable of.

According to a road test carried out by Norwegian motoring magazine, Motor.no, and the Norwegian Automobile Federation (NAF), 29 EVs from leading manufacturers all exceeded their WLTP (Worldwide Harmonized Light Vehicle Test Procedure) quoted ranges.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

So EVs....

For Lotus, electric is the ultimate technology for sports cars

'EV is really well suited to sports cars — the torque characteristics, the weight distribution, design, and flexibility of dynamics. For me, it all leads to BEV as the ultimate technology for sports cars.

The other thing with EV sports cars is the distribution of weight. Batteries are flexible. You aren’t trying to build a car around some big componentry such as gearboxes and engines, so that gives you some flexibility.'

But in overall terms for the world at large is there anything LESS important than sports cars, especially ridiculously "exotic" versions?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by grantp

But in overall terms for the world at large is there anything LESS important than sports cars, especially ridiculously "exotic" versions?

Historic Racing?....

[grantp]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

These 29 EVs all exceeded their advertised ranges

https://thenextweb.com/shift/2020/06...00-wltp-range/

One of the biggest concerns for new electric vehicle buyers is how far they can drive on one charge of the battery. Manufacturers quote estimated “real-world” ranges, but these aren’t always accurate. As it turns out, some manufacturers underestimate what their vehicles are capable of.

According to a road test carried out by Norwegian motoring magazine, Motor.no, and the Norwegian Automobile Federation (NAF), 29 EVs from leading manufacturers all exceeded their WLTP (Worldwide Harmonized Light Vehicle Test Procedure) quoted ranges.

Does that article suggest that stop start city driving uses less energy than constant speed because of regenerative braking - with the suggestion being that braking extends range?


Interesting.


A quick scan of the article in Norwegian (vie Google translate) does not seem to indicate much about the tests other than the route and the ambient temperature. Perhaps they were all slipstreaming at optimum speeds?


Or perhaps not. So far it's difficult to know how to interpret the numbers presented. Not that they really mean much to a typical user - but that's a different story.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by grantp

Does that article suggest that stop start city driving uses less energy than constant speed because of regenerative braking - with the suggestion being that braking extends range?


Interesting.


A quick scan of the article in Norwegian (vie Google translate) does not seem to indicate much about the tests other than the route and the ambient temperature. Perhaps they were all slipstreaming at optimum speeds?


Or perhaps not. So far it's difficult to know how to interpret the numbers presented. Not that they really mean much to a typical user - but that's a different story.

There are some caveats included in the article, which appear to be an honest view:

'There’s a few caveats to mention here. Driving for a long distance on mostly highways isn’t an accurate representation of a daily trip a driver might take in an EV. While it’s difficult to say how the test would have gone in a city situation, EVs do claim to have improved ranges where traffic is stopping and starting frequently. So these cars might go even better in urban driving tests.

Really, this test should only be taken for what it is, a representation of how the vehicles fare over long distance driving.

What’s more, the test was carried out in the Norwegian “summer.” While still cool for most of us, the ambient temperatures during the test were good for the batteries. Motor.no completed the same test in winter and found the colder temperatures adversely impacted range. In winter, it seems EVs struggled to match WLTP quoted ranges. Over the course of the year it should average out.'

[grantp]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Historic Racing?....

Perhaps I should have made a reference to day to day life rather than hobbies.


Once you start on a list of hobbies and passtimes the list of possibly irrelevant (to a Maslow's triangle appreciation of the world) activities produces a lot of competition.


Perhaps the mobility pod designers of the future should consider automatically re-positioning batteries to cater for whatever load the pod is carrying? Though whether that will matter in a speed limited autonomously controlled "traffic" stream seems doubtful.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

There are some caveats included in the article, which appear to be an honest view:

'There’s a few caveats to mention here. Driving for a long distance on mostly highways isn’t an accurate representation of a daily trip a driver might take in an EV. While it’s difficult to say how the test would have gone in a city situation, EVs do claim to have improved ranges where traffic is stopping and starting frequently. So these cars might go even better in urban driving tests.

Really, this test should only be taken for what it is, a representation of how the vehicles fare over long distance driving.

What’s more, the test was carried out in the Norwegian “summer.” While still cool for most of us, the ambient temperatures during the test were good for the batteries. Motor.no completed the same test in winter and found the colder temperatures adversely impacted range. In winter, it seems EVs struggled to match WLTP quoted ranges. Over the course of the year it should average out.'

Indeed, but there is a prolific Norwegian You Tuber who has been running similar tests and noting all of the variables, summer and winter, wet and dry, for some years and I don't recall him once mentioning that any of the many cars he has tested, including his own Teslas, had exceeded the claimed distance at all. Rarely even matched the official figures even making allowances for obvious negative (or positive) circumstances.



So to see such remarkable differences across the entire test fleet is, shall we say, unusual.

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by grantp

Does that article suggest that stop start city driving uses less energy than constant speed because of regenerative braking - with the suggestion being that braking extends range?


Interesting.


A quick scan of the article in Norwegian (vie Google translate) does not seem to indicate much about the tests other than the route and the ambient temperature. Perhaps they were all slipstreaming at optimum speeds?


Or perhaps not. So far it's difficult to know how to interpret the numbers presented. Not that they really mean much to a typical user - but that's a different story.

The old NEDC quoted range figures were nearly always 30% higher than was normally possible .
The EAP figures where done at ideal temperatures & an average speed below 20 MPH .
And the WLTP figures are the same but the overall speed average is at about 20MPH.

https://thedriven.io/2019/08/07/why-...-so-different/
Article that might make some sense of it .
But if that Norwegian article is like AUTOCAR , and trying to promote EVs , then the testing might be done to get the best possible results , & not like most real world drivers will get .
Possibly comparing their results with other real world tests might show some differences .

[Tel 911S]

Comparing that Norwegian article to most other real world figures , it becomes obvious that it is more Pie In The Sky world than real .
https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/range-electric-car
This one & lots of other , [ What Car etc ,] all show the same models with 20 to 30% less actual mileage than the WLTP claimed figures .