The 2024 Rendezvous

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Yes, I read that a while ago. Laughable isn't it?

It really is; I might expect young people to take this sort of issue to court, but not pensioners! I can remember summers like 1976 when it was insufferably hot, but I didn't think that that was a cause that needed addressing in a court of law.

I think people of my age, and older, have forgotten that our summers were often hotter than they are now and our winters could also be colder than we have experienced in the past few years. Weather changes; it's never constant, year after year.

I should add that sometimes when it's too hot - a rare occasion - or to cold or wet, I stay indoors. There I can either heat or cool the environment that I am in. It called personal choice and freedom to do what I want to do under certain circumstances.

[GORDON STREETER]

Exactly Mike, the year that I was born 1947 was one of the worse winters along with 1963 when I remember trying to push bike to work on freezing roads for weeks, I had some ice skates and used to skate on the roads around where I still live, we also had snow piled up on the common in Tunbridge wells that was still there in May.
On the other extreme 1976 and 1990 we often had temperatures over 37c.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Yes, I read that a while ago. Laughable isn't it?

I see that Greta Thunberg joined them is Strasburg for their celebration. Presumably she walked all the way there and back so she didn't contribute to any emissions?

[midgetman]

We don't seem to get cold winters any more do we? Not properly cold, -10 stuff with your bath water freezing like we used to have when I was a kid. (Genuine, we had gas water heaters on an east facing wall and they regularly froze)

We have, what, an odd day of snow every now and again if at all. I barely had to scrape ice off the van this winter, and that includes still-dark very early morning starts. Must be a bugger for the sellers of de-icer

It's quite good really, winters have been a lot milder lately which means I can work more often. TBH even as recently as 7 years ago my FB memories show kart races being snowed off. It's been really wet and stormy though, it was terrible at the weekend, it was a hard job holding the awning down. There are more storms every year and even higher winds, at least so it seems to this poor bloody foot soldier who has to be out in them. I haven't had a fully dry race weekend since September I reckon.

Just like the climate scientists predicted 25 years ago. Maybe they are on to something?

As for renewables, I really don't get your argument against them. Stick to oil and gas and be at the beck and call of Putin and the Arab states who want to bring down the Western world. Sheer genius lads. Windmills, water or anything is a first stage while we get it right. "Every journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step."

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by midgetman

We don't seem to get cold winters any more do we? Not properly cold, -10 stuff with your bath water freezing like we used to have when I was a kid. (Genuine, we had gas water heaters on an east facing wall and they regularly froze)

Well most of us live with much better insulation and much more efficient heating.

Originally Posted by midgetman

We have, what, an odd day of snow every now and again if at all. I barely had to scrape ice off the van this winter, and that includes still-dark very early morning starts. Must be a bugger for the sellers of de-icer

We've had three very mild winters recently but that is not to say that we won't get hit with a bad one soon. It just demonstrates that the weather changes. Calling it "climate Change" is simply a means of sensationalising it.

Originally Posted by midgetman

It's quite good really, winters have been a lot milder lately which means I can work more often. TBH even as recently as 7 years ago my FB memories show kart races being snowed off. It's been really wet and stormy though, it was terrible at the weekend, it was a hard job holding the awning down. There are more storms every year and even higher winds, at least so it seems to this poor bloody foot soldier who has to be out in them. I haven't had a fully dry race weekend since September I reckon.

Just like the climate scientists predicted 25 years ago. Maybe they are on to something?

What is a "climare scientist"?

Originally Posted by midgetman

As for renewables, I really don't get your argument against them. Stick to oil and gas and be at the beck and call of Putin and the Arab states who want to bring down the Western world. Sheer genius lads. Windmills, water or anything is a first stage while we get it right. "Every journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step."

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

The problem, should anyone care to look, is that renweables are not having any impact on the weather.

“2023 was the warmest year since global records began in 1850 by a wide margin.
It was 2.12 °F (1.18 °C) above the 20th-century average of 57.0°F (13.9°C).
It was 2.43 °F (1.35 °C) above the pre-industrial average (1850-1900).” See
https://www.climate.gov/news-feature...al-temperature

“The fact that Earth has been hotter in the past than it is today doesn't prove that recent global warming is natural. Forest fires can have both natural and human causes. So can climate change. It is partly through figuring out what caused the periods like the ones described in this article that we came to understand that carbon dioxide sets the thermostat of Earth's climate.

The fact that Earth has been hotter in the past than it is today doesn't prove that current warming is harmless, either to people or other life on Earth.

Some previous hot periods led to global mass extinctions.

The hot house periods described in this article occurred millions and millions of years before humans existed. They have no bearing on whether modern human civilization can cope with the level of warming we are likely to face if we do not stop adding greenhouse gases to the atmosphere.”

The above quoted website talks about previous warming events which lead to mass extinction. Dinosaurs were unable to control their personal environments so the argumanet falls down there. That said

“Global carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels and industry totaled 37.15 billion metric tons (GtCO?) in 2022. Emissions are projected to have risen 1.1 percent in 2023 to reach a record high of 37.55 GtCO?. Since 1990, global CO? emissions have increased by more than 60 percent.” https://www.statista.com/statistics/...2060%20percent

View that through the lens of a massive increase in renewable installations and one should ask, do renewables solve the problem? And clearly they don't.

As to the point about fossil fuels, we do actually have massive reserves under our feet, even in the North Sea. Instead of banning them we should exploit them and use the energy to develop better, more efficient infrastructure. Net Zero really is a con since as with most things scientific it can't be achieved. Norway and Sweden have realised this.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

“Global carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels and industry totaled 37.15 billion metric tons (GtCO?) in 2022. Emissions are projected to have risen 1.1 percent in 2023 to reach a record high of 37.55 GtCO?. Since 1990, global CO? emissions have increased by more than 60 percent.” https://www.statista.com/statistics/...2060%20percent

View that through the lens of a massive increase in renewable installations and one should ask, do renewables solve the problem? And clearly they don't.

Because the emissions are a global figure - but the measures to address this (such as renewables) have not been adopted globally.

In Europe and North America, the emissions are going down. Because other parts of the world are seeing an increase, that doesn't mean that local progress shouldn't be made in the interim whilst educating those other regions.

[Tel 911S]

Although the UK missed most of it , this Winter has been one of the coldest for a long time .https://notrickszone.com/2024/03/24/...e-strengthens/
Record snowfalls in a lot of Northern countries , and record low temperatures .
But to counteract the facts the Green media uses fake computer generated programs trying to claim " Hottest Ever " temperature stories .
Also they come up with readings taken from airfield runways with jet planes taking off.

And as for the NET ZERO fraud , the UK emissions of CO2 make up 0.00001% of the atmosphere ,[ or 1 part in 10 million ], and there have been hundreds of scientific papers published showing that CO2 has no measureable effect on the climate , but not 1 published that proves CO2 makes the world warmer .

Renewable generation is both very unreliable , and very expensive being unable to exist without massive subsidies which is why energy costs are going up for every country who goes along with the scam .
It also closes a lot of businesses down and puts up the cost for everybody .
Which is the whole point of the Climate Change fraud , to destroy Western economies . https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybe...tory-lesson-2/

[Mike Harte]

The elephant in the room is that while we, that is the UK, Europe and North America are attempting to cut emissions, countries such as China, Russia and India are doing very little if anything to do their bit. I think that I am right in saying that, in fact, India and China are actually increasing emissions especially by burning more coal in their quests to increase industrialisation.

Of course, that doesn't mean we should all throw our arms in the air and do nothing, and like Max has said, we should and can do our bit to help by trying to produce our energy supplies in the cleanest possible way. However, it must be undergone by a government that is able to ensure that it is done for real scientific and ethical reasons. I say that because one "entrepreneur" has been trying for years to obtain funding from central government to create power from water movement in the Bristol Channel. But the real reason behind the project, or so I have been led to believe, is that all he really wants to do is quarry materials to be used in the project so that it will create benefits from another project he wants to create that planners will not allow because it would mean creating a quarry. The source for this, and I hope that I have got it right, has been Private Eye, which I commend as being valuable reading; I've subscribed for about 60 years.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

and there have been hundreds of scientific papers published showing that CO2 has no measureable effect on the climate , but not 1 published that proves CO2 makes the world warmer .

As always, there is another way to view the statement.

It could be equally correct to write 'there have been hundreds of scientific papers published that have been unable to prove CO2 does not have a measurable effect on the climate, and not a single paper showing that CO2 does not make the world warmer'.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

The elephant in the room is that while we, that is the UK, Europe and North America are attempting to cut emissions, countries such as China, Russia and India are doing very little if anything to do their bit. I think that I am right in saying that, in fact, India and China are actually increasing emissions especially by burning more coal in their quests to increase industrialisation.

True. But if your neighbour is throwing trash in the street, does that mean you stop placing your waste in your bins for collection?

It could be said that you start by sorting your own house out first, and then lead by example.

Admittedly, to convince some of those other countries to follow suit is a more difficult challenge.

[midgetman]

I've been on this site 20 years and I still can't multiple quote so please excuse my archaic way of rpying to many points:

>>>>>>>>>>Well most of us live with much better insulation and much more efficient heating.

You're picking up on the wrong thing. My major point is we don't get these cold temperatures any more. It's not a "few warm winters", I'm working outside all over the country all year round and I can guarantee that for the last few years it's been getting steadily warmer and stormier. It's nothing to do with house insulation or whatever, I have NO insulation in my awnings! Never mind fabcy graphs and clever articles, this is end user experience.

>>>>>>>>>The problem, should anyone care to look, is that renweables are not having any impact on the weather.

I didn't even hint they were. My argument for renewables is to reduce the reliance on some of the worst despots in the world, Why on earth do we have to go cap in hand to Putin, Trump, Raisi et al? Why don't we try to become self sufficient in energy? As for costing £X,000 "green tax" per household, that's called "investment" and there's been precious little of that by our generation as we hoover up resources that future generations will struggle without. My workshop costs my customers some money in addition to the bare costs of a spanner monkey, it's investing in my facilities so they can have their karts prepared to a high standard. It's the same principle.

>>>>>>True. But if your neighbour is throwing trash in the street, does that mean you stop placing your waste in your bins for collection?

It could be said that you start by sorting your own house out first, and then lead by example.

This. This is so right. "Every journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step", I feel like I need to repeat it every time we discuss this.


I'm not a green zealot - with my job how could I be? - but even so I've equipped my new workshop with LED lighting and economical heaters. Why? Because it saves me money. Same with switching to a more economical car. If we all did that we'd buy less from the despots of the world, reduce their power and influence. Rishi shouted: "inflation is going up, nuffink to do wiv me guv, it's Putin going to war wot dun it." Imagine if Putin going to war didn't push up our energy prices?

I just can't understand why people are so keen to love oil and not look for something else.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

True. But if your neighbour is throwing trash in the street, does that mean you stop placing your waste in your bins for collection?

It could be said that you start by sorting your own house out first, and then lead by example.

Admittedly, to convince some of those other countries to follow suit is a more difficult challenge.

This is so naive. All Net Zero is doing is putting counties into the hands of China.

Yes it will be good to clean up the oceans, gawd knows its a deperate situation, but impoverishing countries on the back of renewables which can never work 100% (and more windmills doesn't equate to more wind) so the best thing would be to concentrate on nukes and forget the daft attempt to harness the wind.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I've been on this site 20 years and I still can't multiple quote so please excuse my archaic way of rpying to many points:

>>>>>>>>>>Well most of us live with much better insulation and much more efficient heating.

You're picking up on the wrong thing. My major point is we don't get these cold temperatures any more. It's not a "few warm winters", I'm working outside all over the country all year round and I can guarantee that for the last few years it's been getting steadily warmer and stormier. It's nothing to do with house insulation or whatever, I have NO insulation in my awnings! Never mind fabcy graphs and clever articles, this is end user experience.

No I'm pointing out that the weather may have changed but we've mitigated a lot of the problems by building better accommodation otherwise it would be worse. Milder winters do happen.

Originally Posted by midgetman

>>>>>>>>>The problem, should anyone care to look, is that renweables are not having any impact on the weather.

I didn't even hint they were. My argument for renewables is to reduce the reliance on some of the worst despots in the world, Why on earth do we have to go cap in hand to Putin, Trump, Raisi et al? Why don't we try to become self sufficient in energy? As for costing £X,000 "green tax" per household, that's called "investment" and there's been precious little of that by our generation as we hoover up resources that future generations will struggle without. My workshop costs my customers some money in addition to the bare costs of a spanner monkey, it's investing in my facilities so they can have their karts prepared to a high standard. It's the same principle.

But to build a wind farm takes a shedload of concrete, steel and oil, they then only last 25years and you can't just take them down and re build on top, you have to move elsewhere. Yopu alos have to build transformer stations, inverters and cabling. None of this is carbon free. But if like the UK you import all this stuff then the carbon emissions belong to another country and we can lie about ours. Worth checking but I think it was the ONS who recently identified the flaw in our emissions calculations by excluding mports.

Originally Posted by midgetman

I'm not a green zealot - with my job how could I be? - but even so I've equipped my new workshop with LED lighting and economical heaters. Why? Because it saves me money. Same with switching to a more economical car. If we all did that we'd buy less from the despots of the world, reduce their power and influence. Rishi shouted: "inflation is going up, nuffink to do wiv me guv, it's Putin going to war wot dun it." Imagine if Putin going to war didn't push up our energy prices?

I just can't understand why people are so keen to love oil and not look for something else.

People are looking elsewhere, but trying to use the wind and sun to change the weather is not working, it is simply impoverishing the country. One of the posters here lives in Italy and thus does not have the issues that the UK will have if it follows this naive path.

I quoted a website that even admits that with the increase in renewable installations, carbon emissions are increasing. How is that? Or could it be that the production of these contraptions is creating more environmental impact?

[Lancsbreaker]

Could it be that emissions are increasing because the number of people is continuing to increase, all putting extra demands on energy supplies....and of course the majority in areas with a much lower standard of living than we enjoy, and unsurprisingly they want to raise their way of living to match ours.....(apart from the Taliban, who seem to want to revert to the stone age, but with Kalashnikovs..)


The man who came to sell us solar panels (milady has been trying to persuade me to get them for over 10 years, and of course I said no, because I didn't think we'd still be living in the same place - wrong again! ) tried to use the Green argument. I asked him if he'd seen how many cars were outside our house. He then tried suggesting that it was an investment for our descendants - I pointed out I hadn't got any, so couldn't care less....... But we still got them, and even in the miserable weather we've had since late Feb when they were fitted, they've been generating an average 100 kWh per week, meeting most of our needs, and we've exported quite a bit.......



The only problem is that people keep asking when I'm getting an electric car.... Oh, yes, and of course the panels came from China.......

[Mike Harte]

Richard, it's very good that even in winter that you are generating enough for your own purposes and even exporting some, all of which will be helping enormously with your utilities' bills.

However, do or will your savings ever cover the costs involved in having them installed? I ask because some reports I have seen say that it could be decades before some who have them will see an actual return on them, by which time they will probably need replacing.

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Richard, it's very good that even in winter that you are generating enough for your own purposes and even exporting some, all of which will be helping enormously with your utilities' bills.

However, do or will your savings ever cover the costs involved in having them installed? I ask because some reports I have seen say that it could be decades before some who have them will see an actual return on them, by which time they will probably need replacing.

There is a formula which shows " Energy return on investment ".
https://corporatefinanceinstitute.co...vestment-eroi/
In some cases , if the conditions are very favourable , solar can just about cover its cost , but across the board , wind and solar hardly ever make enough energy to pay for itself . Which is why , in this country , they have to be subsidised . I believe this years figure is about £12 billion , which is the main reason that energy costs have rocketed up over the past few years .

[midgetman]

>>>>>>>I quoted a website that even admits that with the increase in renewable installations, carbon emissions are increasing. How is that? Or could it be that the production of these contraptions is creating more environmental impact?

I said I wasn't "green". I said I was mainly interested in energy security. How can I be "green," I work in motor sport? I am mainly interested in getting renewables to work because they move us away from despots. Maybe I'm naïve but we have to start somewhere.

Whatever anyone says it cannot be denied that the weather in my little world is changing. Winters are warmer, wetter and stormier just like I remember talking heads on the radio saying as I drove home from work 25 years ago.

Does anyone remember when the Monte was a snow rally? Recently even the Swedish has been gravel. My skiing mates are having trouble finding snow.

Something is happening. People think they know why. Why shouldn't we listen to them? And if along the way we save money and pull us away from despots what's not to like?

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[Mike Harte]

Tel, that is about commercial operations; I was referring to domestic installations, such as Richard's.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Richard, it's very good that even in winter that you are generating enough for your own purposes and even exporting some, all of which will be helping enormously with your utilities' bills.

However, do or will your savings ever cover the costs involved in having them installed? I ask because some reports I have seen say that it could be decades before some who have them will see an actual return on them, by which time they will probably need replacing.

Just remember - since the clocks went forward you get an extra hour of sun in the evening to generate electricity with!

[Mike Harte]

Max, I'm with you in pretty well all you say, and weather has changed in the last few decades. I am not saying that that this is due this or that because I don't know, but that doesn't mean that it hasn't and isn't happening.

I remember when I was 7 or 8 years old at boarding school, and for days on end it was so hot in the evenings that it was almost impossible to get off to sleep. And I also remember that when I was 12 to 17, I would catch a boat train from Waterloo to Dover, always on Boxing Day. And as the train chugged it's way through Kent, you could guarantee that you would see the first, usually, snow of the year coming down on the fields.

Nowadays, it's often impossible to find snow during December and into January. Last couple of times that I skied over Christmas into the New Year, they had no snow lower down in the normal skiing areas and many drag lifts were closed. A couple of times even on the higher runs, even on the glaciers, it was so warm during the days that they would close the whole skiing area after lunch to protect the snow. And in the morning, after the temperature had dropped over night, the snow would have become like packed ice.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Richard, it's very good that even in winter that you are generating enough for your own purposes and even exporting some, all of which will be helping enormously with your utilities' bills.

However, do or will your savings ever cover the costs involved in having them installed? I ask because some reports I have seen say that it could be decades before some who have them will see an actual return on them, by which time they will probably need replacing.

They weren't cheap (we had an 11 panel array and a 5kWH battery) but on the estimates they gave us we'd get about a 7% return on the capital utilised. As milady had all her cash in a basic Santander account earning Zilch, and had resisted my attempts to get her to move it to something getting about 5%, I didn't argue when she said she wanted to go ahead with it. As it is, so far we seem to be ahead of the predicted output (4000kWh pa), having only had them installed on 23/2/24 - and the one sunny week we had a couple of weeks ago we got daily output of high 20s/ low 30s kWh - so I'm hopeful for reasonable performance for the better part of the year. (Of course today was crap - only about 7 kWh generated - given the wind, we should have had a turbine )


We also have a tariff with Octopus that pays us a higher export tariff in peak hours (4-7pm) and a lower buy-in tariff between 2-6am, so the controller is set to discharge the battery to the grid at the peak period, and top it up overnight in the cheap period. Its early days yet, we haven't had the first full month bills yet as EON (our old provider) have dragged their heels, but we did get paid £17.54 for the 91kWh we exported between 12 and 26 March - the first 2 weeks we were on the tariff.



Allegedly having the panels fitted should also boost the value of the house - if only because it improves the energy rating of the place - but I have no real evidence for that.

We'll see how it works out in the next few months, I guess. The panels and battery have a minimum 10 year guarantee, but they supposedly typically last longer than that - which is more than I probably will.......

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Just remember - since the clocks went forward you get an extra hour of sun in the evening to generate electricity with!

Yeah.........


Its actually quite fascinating to look at the stats of the generation. Our roof faces almost perfectly south, and on a clear day the curve of the generation level is an almost perfect arc, reflecting (no pun intended) the intensity of the sunshine as the sun crosses the sky. You do of course get generation from any light - I've even seen a little power generated under moonlight on a clear night....

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Tel, that is about commercial operations; I was referring to domestic installations, such as Richard's.

Across the range of PV installations (including domestic) the EROI is very varied.

The range is quite wide, but varied from 8.7 to 34.2. (source)

In terms of financial return, there are a lot of factors to consider, including the tariff that you are on.

On average, installation costs in the UK are £6,000. Annual return is between £65 and £220 per year. It sounds like Richard's has a battery system attached, which pushes up initial price but speeds up the potential return on investment. (source)

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I said I wasn't "green". I said I was mainly interested in energy security. How can I be "green," I work in motor sport? I am mainly interested in getting renewables to work because they move us away from despots. Maybe I'm naïve but we have to start somewhere.

We all are, but to suggest an intermittent source of energy is secure is somewhat baffling don't you think? We have in the UK approx 28GWH of wind power available. On average over the past year we needed 29.7 GWh per day so you'd expect wind, if it were reliable, to provide 94% of that requirement. Accorcing to National Grid Live we got 37.2% of that requirement, because the wind doesn't blow all day and all night. How is that secure? https://grid.iamkate.com/

Originally Posted by midgetman

Whatever anyone says it cannot be denied that the weather in my little world is changing. Winters are warmer, wetter and stormier just like I remember talking heads on the radio saying as I drove home from work 25 years ago.

Of course the weather changes why should it suddenly (past 25years) be "an emergency?"

Originally Posted by midgetman

Does anyone remember when the Monte was a snow rally? Recently even the Swedish has been gravel. My skiing mates are having trouble finding snow.

Something is happening. People think they know why. Why shouldn't we listen to them? And if along the way we save money and pull us away from despots what's not to like?

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

What is happening is that the world is going through one of its cycles it can't be stopped. Someone has stirred up a lot of hysteria and some have bought into it. There was a survey recently which suggested that 67% of the UK population supports Net Zero. The question didn't include the costs or alternative technologies so of course people will want a cleaner planet.

As to energy security? China (not a member of the ECHR) is controlling the production of turbine componentry, EVs, battery components etc. and people think we are secure? https://www.reuters.com/business/ene...ks-2024-04-09/ Also we will have the largest offshore windfarm in the world, but unless the wind blows it won't generate any electricity; and just look at those stats again. Even if the wind does blow it won't hit more than 30% of its capability and that would probably be on one day in spring when power requirements are not excessive.

As to heat pumps, it is noticeable that in many cases where these are installed, houses also have log fires and other forms of heating. And you can't install a heat pump in a fourth floor flat. There you have to use air conditioners (extremely heavy on energy) and they are not very good at heating so you need subsidiary heating.

Plus, whilst current demand is approx 30GWh per day; when everyone is using heat pumps, EVs, all transportation is electric, we will surely need 60GWh per day plus.

I'm all for seeking new ideas and technology but why can't people understand that however this is cut, it is a complete con.

IMO we need to clean up the oceans and increase nuclear power (which generates its own environmental impact). Until that time we should use fossil fuels. Note: drilling has started on a new find in the North Sea)https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/27/energ...0in%20Scotland.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I'm all for seeking new ideas and technology but why can't people understand that however this is cut, it is a complete con.

I think because a significant amount of people who claim that it is all a complete con have been discredited on many occasions.

Are there some people looking to profit from the move to 'greener' energy? - Yes
Are some people presenting evidence that is at best ambiguous, and at times false to further their profit/control? - Yes
Does that mean that the entire scientific community that endorses the climate change crisis, the move to greener energy and the need for renewables to form (part of) the solution are wrong? - No

FWIW - I personally think that Nuclear should also form part of the solution. However there are far too many people that have bought into the climate change denial propaganda, and the longer the problem is ignored, the worse it will become in the long run.