[Official] Italian Grand Prix 2020: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 8

[Adam43]

It’s in a way better position. A light on the entrance to the pit lane is too late and potentially dangerous if the driver makes a late call to not pull into the pit lane. The signs were on marshall’s posts that are known to the driver and show flags and other notifications.

And if they are going to recover a car from where Magnussen stopped it’s better to have the lights before that.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Adam43

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/standin...Penalty+points

He has eight at the moment and doesn’t drop any initial November.

Was it harsh? It’s a safety thing so seems appropriate.

8 penalty points in total, how has he managed to that?

[S griffin]

I would guess his two incidents with Albon might have something to do with it

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

8 penalty points in total, how has he managed to that?

Kept running into Albon?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I would guess his two incidents with Albon might have something to do with it

Three points for each Albon incident and two for the pitstop, is that how it works?

[Aysedasi]

What puzzles me about the pitlane being closed is why that isn't signalled to the driver - in the car. There are so many things that are signalled (or capable of being signalled), the simplest thing from a safety point of view is to have a pitlane closed indicator in the cars, triggered by the race director, not way out on a corner largely out of your eyeline..... or is that too simple to expect?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

What puzzles me about the pitlane being closed is why that isn't signalled to the driver - in the car. There are so many things that are signalled (or capable of being signalled), the simplest thing from a safety point of view is to have a pitlane closed indicator in the cars, triggered by the race director, not way out on a corner largely out of your eyeline..... or is that too simple to expect?

You would have thought but like most aspects of F1, things are rarely simple.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

What puzzles me about the pitlane being closed is why that isn't signalled to the driver - in the car. There are so many things that are signalled (or capable of being signalled), the simplest thing from a safety point of view is to have a pitlane closed indicator in the cars, triggered by the race director, not way out on a corner largely out of your eyeline..... or is that too simple to expect?

I thought that too.

What do they show drivers now for race control? If I recall correctly they show yellows, blues and the maximum times for VSC. Although I believe that on track signals are considered
the primary notification. So if the system in car goes down or the driver misses it it still counts. Anything else?

[chillibowl]

Between being warned and before commiting to the pit lane entry there wasnt much time was there?

Sainz didnt follow LH in.

Perhaps there was a procedural issue on Mercs part or LH was just careless (which can still happen even with a light on his steering wheel), i think Merc/LH just got caught out.

Happens.

[Aysedasi]

Yep, you're right of course, but in this high tech age, relying on a poor signal in a difficult place to see (which caused a fair bit of debate even here, initially) seems pretty low tech....

[Akrapovic]

I'd put it 99% on Mercedes. The pit lane was closed when the SC deployed - the messages came up on the system together. Only 2 engineers didn't notice.

[tux]

I see the drum of "reverse grids being the silver bullet" is being banged again. However, then results like yesterday become the norm and are less of an "excited shock". Right?

[Aysedasi]

The drum, although beaten, is a silent one, as we all know full well it is never going to happen....

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by tux

I see the drum of "reverse grids being the silver bullet" is being banged again. However, then results like yesterday become the norm and are less of an "excited shock". Right?

Disclaimer: I'm not arguing for reverse grids.

However...it does work. BTCC reverse grids are more fun. It isn't a shock, but it does produce better racing and mixed results.

The question is where to you draw the line between sport and entertainment.

[chillibowl]

I admit to being very curious about what Lewis could have done with more laps if not an entire race's worth of laps to make a comeback.

Not everytime but with 20 plus races i see value in some unique tracks offering unique challanges. personally i am on the side of format variety though.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The pit lane was closed when the SC deployed - the messages came up on the system together.

Is that true? Both Sky and Autosport reported the pits being closed 10 secs or so after the SC was called, by which time Hamilton was already entering Parabolica.

Edit here: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15...rvy-italian-gp

"His [Magnussen's] stricken car had to be pushed into the pitlane by the marshals, which meant the pitlane was closed - 11-seconds after the safety car was called - but Hamilton headed in to switch to the medium tyres."

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Is that true? Both Sky and Autosport reported the pits being closed 10 secs or so after the SC was called, by which time Hamilton was already entering Parabolica.

Edit here: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15...rvy-italian-gp

"His [Magnussen's] stricken car had to be pushed into the pitlane by the marshals, which meant the pitlane was closed - 11-seconds after the safety car was called - but Hamilton headed in to switch to the medium tyres."

Sky reported at the time, and during the break, that the messages were together. Safety Car Deployed, Pit Lane Closed. The pit lane closure was the reason for using the SC rather than FCY, as the race directors wanted tighter control of the cars.

Strange Autosport article that. It gives enough detail to say there was an 11 second gap between messages, but doesn't say how long between the Pit Lane Closed signal, and Lewis pitting there was - arguably a far more important metric. We can work out to be at least 5+ seconds or so from Lewis onboard cam, but possibly more. More than enough time for the pit wall to tell Lewis.

Only 2 engineers dropped the ball. I don't think the system need changed, or more things introduced. Everyone managed it apart from 2. Had it been Giovanardi and Grosjean that had missed it we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Adam43]

I remember it being referred to as “at the same time” during the race. High is probably where this has been picked up.

I also remember some “it was on page 4 of the notifications” from someone in Merc (I think).

How do we find out if it was called “as he entered Parabolica”? Have you seen this? Is it true?

I would love to see the timing. I wonder if it is on the replay of timing that will be on F1 TV? Hmmm...

Although it’s a moot point. The X was on the boards on the outside of the Parabolica. Lewis can see it, but missed it. You don’t have to be warned in advance for a yellow, so I don’t see that as mitigating. Although it does point to the team not helping him when they could.

I haven’t seen it described as ambiguous by any of the drivers (?), although we thought it was on telly. Which is different.
Also Lewis hasn’t whinged about it. Once he saw the evidence he was fine with it.

Although ultimately

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Happens.

Yes. This.

[Akrapovic]

To be honest, whilst I do agree that Lewis should have saw the boards, I put more blame on the team for this one. They made the pit call. They told him to pit when the pit lane was closed. If it wasn't for that instruction, he would not have pitted. I don't see it as Lewis responsibility to make sure the team gets those calls right.

Unlike over at Ferrari where Seb and Charlie have to constantly point out massive gaping flaws in Plan J, which they've moved to by Lesmo 1 on lap 2.

[Anyopenroad]

The "as Hamilton was entering Parabolica" came from this Autosport article:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15...ed-pit-penalty

That, however, says that "When the pitlane closed decision was made and the safety car called out, Hamilton was already approaching Parabolica" which contradicts the previous article I quoted and I conflated the two.

(BTW I agree with the conclusion that the team was ultimately at fault, I'm not trying to argue otherwise)

[Adam43]

[crmalcolm]

Another point that has come to mind in connection to how obvious the display boards are at the outside of the circuit, is that we are (I think) judging this from the view of the onboards.

It has to be remembered that those cameras are significantly higher than the drivers' eyeline, and angled downwards with a focal length and scale designed to show the drivers' actions in the cockpit and in the immediate vicinity of the front wheels. It's not the best camera angle to judge how visible the boards are compared to a driver's perspective.

[Barry in IN]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Had it been Giovanardi and Grosjean that had missed it we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I’ll sure agree with that. Yeah, yeah, the consequences of doing it while running their usual 17th or 18th wouldn’t be as significant, but even if they somehow were in the top five it would’ve been written off as a typical disaster. Only because bad things haven’t been happening to Mercedes in general and LH in particular is it a thing.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

The "as Hamilton was entering Parabolica" came from this Autosport article:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15...ed-pit-penalty

That, however, says that "When the pitlane closed decision was made and the safety car called out, Hamilton was already approaching Parabolica" which contradicts the previous article I quoted and I conflated the two.

(BTW I agree with the conclusion that the team was ultimately at fault, I'm not trying to argue otherwise)

There is some footage of the pit car radio calls for Hamilton and Sainz. It’s around the 4 minute mark.
https://youtu.be/iAQNJ-Ah0_g
They told Hamilton, but too late and he didn’t quite hear. Sainz was worried that he’d missed out because Hamilton had managed to pit.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Another point that has come to mind in connection to how obvious the display boards are at the outside of the circuit, is that we are (I think) judging this from the view of the onboards.

It has to be remembered that those cameras are significantly higher than the drivers' eyeline, and angled downwards with a focal length and scale designed to show the drivers' actions in the cockpit and in the immediate vicinity of the front wheels. It's not the best camera angle to judge how visible the boards are compared to a driver's perspective.

This from Toto:

“We don’t see any of the orange crosses on the outside that say you cannot enter. There is no red light that we could have seen. So, very unlucky for Lewis. These signs on the esit, yellow or orange crosses, not blinking and you as a driver who is about to pit, you can’t see it.”

”We need to look at the sequence of events and discuss with the sporting director and the stewards on how we can improve such a situation. The funny crosses on the outside should be red first of all. Maybe they should be blinking.

Then on the pitlane entry, like we have had for bloody fifty years, put a damn red light.” Toto Wolff