A Likely Scenario - New C^RT Will Not Be US Based

[¡As-de-mim!]

From MotorsportForum

Your all arguing for nothing. Open wheel in the US is dead. CART is on the ropes and if they go down the IRL guys will celebrate for a short time only to get it in the rear when Toyota bolts for NASCAR full time and Honda follows suit. With that the teams and drivers will follow the money trail. The writing is on the wall. It doesn't take a genius to see it all unfolding. By 2008, the Indy 500 will be for Nascar.

If i had the cash (and the way the stock is going, i will soon enough), i would by CART, take it private, get it the hell out of the US except for Long Beach and run it as the #2 to F1. I would have full crowds in Long Beach, the 3 canadian races, the 2 mexican rounds, head down to south america and run in Brazil and Argentina, full houses in europe and asia.

Oh yes..Havegas, you may be saying what will happen. CART stock is low low low right now, and with the success of CART outside of the US, it is a probability someone is thinking just that. That is the scuttlebutt I got from some of the CART guys (worker bee types) I meet up with in Toronto

[Jay]

Who did that come from and why should it be taken any more seriously than anything posted by you or I here? There lots of people on forums around the net throwing out the oddest of rumours...very few of them true.

[Neil C]

In my experience, the problem with scuttlebutt from worker bee types, is that it is either conspiracy-theory fear or wishful thinking. In any case it's almost always wrong.

[¡As-de-mim!]

Why spend hundreds of millions of dollars fighting for crumbs when the world is waiting?

[Jay]

The other thing is, as much time and money it's going to cost a new owner to keep the series going here, it will take 4-5 times that to totally move it outside of the US...and I don't think that's going to happen.

What do I think? A group of people headed by Gerald Forsythe, Craig Pollock and Kevin Kalkhoven, Paul Gentilozzi and possibly Bernie Ecclestone (he has to be involved in this in one way or another, good or bad, small or big) are working their buts off to take Cart private. According to David Phillips (who's about as reliable as they get), they've already spent an estimated 500,000 in an effort to get Cart private.

Also, Jon Vannini will want a say in this, and will more than likely launch a lawsuit very soon...hopefully not affecting things too much.

[¡As-de-mim!]

Dropping RA didn't cause Pook any lost sleep. Mario spent x$ to get it back on schedule. You don't really think they are calling it the Mario Andretti GP for sentimental reasons, do you? Pook is ready to drop other non performing, traditional venues. The V-10 is a Euro-centric motor, not for the US market. The turbo V-8 has more appeal to a US market/fans; recall the fan forum vote at Cleveland - turbo V-8 - 250, V-10 - zero. City/street events, same same.

[Lee Janotta]

Well, like I've said before, if it's _not_ going to be based in North Amaerica, get it the hell out of my backyard so someone with some integrity can claim Miami, Long Beach, Cleveland, Toronto, and the other successful events.

[gttouring]

CART can stay strong in the US and NA- in fact doing a SouthAmerican tour will indeed bolster CART- Argentina would seriously support it as Brasil would.
I say they should dump some street races like Denver, and go to Argentina- It never occured to me about the South Am markets brilliant- I don't think a #2 to F1 is really an Idea as it is unique and would work as a lateral or an alternate... as it has in the past.
CART could be the best ever if IRL would go away right now resources are too tight, and NASCAR deoesn't help, and the 2 can survive together, the 3 is questionable.
And as far as Toyota goes with NAsCAR so what.
Mercedes was in F1 and CART, Ford was in NASCAR F1 and CART and WRC- Honda was in CART,F1 the list ogoes on an inexpensive formula built on what workd is the best way
3.0 (or keep them at 2.65) litre V8's witha turbo at 14,000 rpm's is my vote- just dust off the old ones(at 900HP it shouldn't be hard to be competitive at 14K rpm) , give em no traction control and no power steering, and spec computers and all is good go race the world.

[Jay]

Cart's not going to go global though...what would they call themselves then, Formula 1.5? Also, any owner that would move the series to Europe would be basically starting from scratch...and have an even more difficult task than the one Cart faces now. I can't see any reason or anyone that would do that...unless they're looking for something to compete with F1.

I think the "American Grand Prix" series is coming... mostly street circuits, with some road circuits and hopefully a few ovals to mix it up.

[Liz]

CART could do what all the businesses in America are doing -- move to Mexico! They have a terrific fan base there, prices are way lower, there will soon be a cross-border trade agreement with them like NAFTA, and above all else it will stop all the whining about how we need more Yanqui drivers. And I am not sure what their tobacco policy is, but I'd be willing to bet they have a lot of other things to worry about first.

Being based in Mexico would still allow them to race in the USA on tracks that wanted them, while saving money and being surrounded by well wishers instead of people whining that they're dead. What could be better?

[cos]

I hope 'New Cart' doesn't go the same way as 'New Coke'...!

[Liz]

The big mistake "New Coke" made was in not warning people in advance, and in tasting nasty. However, the option of New CART and Classic CART co-existing is probably a dream.

[BizTeacher]

Cokes mistake was not asking coke drinkers if they would choose'new coke' over the original coke formula as many coke consumers had sentimentl ties to the now coke classic brand. it was purely a marketing research error. The 'classic CART' no longer exists. New teams and team owners that want to be here and are striving to make the series more successful constitute the 'new CART'. The 'classic CART' has long since demised from this series with the defection of team owners and drivers.

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by Liz
CART could do what all the businesses in America are doing -- move to Mexico! They have a terrific fan base there, prices are way lower, there will soon be a cross-border trade agreement with them like NAFTA...

Um, Liz, NAFTA includes Mexico.

[racer69]

I don't think there's any doubt that the 'new CART' won't be US based, or at least not as much as it has been.

Bernie Ecclestone may be involved in some way, but i reckon he's in on alot of the series around the world, i've no doubt he is in with the IRL, or at least helped TG start it up. (considering when the FIA were talking about starting their own oval racing championship in the early 90s, they were talking about NA engines of around 3.5 litres. Admittedly IRL started with 4 litre engines, but the other similarities are obvious)

[gttouring]

Pook is an Idiot (from RACECAR ENGINEERING magazine)"We want to maintain a level of Technology, that is important because our audience is young, upwardly mobile and technology conscious. we need to do something to appeal to this." Chris Pook says "we think a V10 is the smart way to go..about 3.0 litres and a common ECU" he goes on to say that the turbo option is 'more expensive' than the V10.
but it won't be like F1 "CART just does not have the budget for that"
Firstly
what is high tech to the NorthAmerican Market?What is a 'fast car engine?' A turbo- turbo equal faast to hotwheel buyers (anyone who is 20-39 knows any hotwheel car that looked fast very often had a turbo pinstripe or lettering on the quarterpanel or running board- this image id not lost on us as we grow)
what is special Gasoline or Methanol?
The Average fan (not us in the Forums who want tire smoke and methanol as potpouri) doesn't know CART is methanol powered or turbo V8's as F1 fans don't know F1 is V10 or Gas for that matter.
If you can pump it-it is not Hightech, methanol is percieved as such and it is a GREEN fuel (work that angle PookMoron)
V10 according to pook have "an aura of sophistiaction"
to who? f1 fans or V10 dodge viper drivers? or V10 ford/Chevy/Dodge Ram pickup drivers these are diesels or gas either way.
Secondly
A public copmany is ceratinly not asking thepublic what they'd like to see. not on the website anyway...
Research of a fan base-and possible new fans-could be done and he'd soon find out every RicedOut hatch owner would admit to saying a big engine is good but a turbo is the ultimate speed source. Look at the markets, everyone "turboes" their car to make it fst and poerful how is it that people who spend money (more than the value of the car)to build up a 5000 US dollar car? and then go drifting or go to shows spending wads of cash on tires and what have you not be a good bunch to see Cart as the ultimate expression of Turbo Power and Racing Tech?
This is just one group. The Loyal CART fans also would love to see prgress but at the expense of what? beig F1 lite? or like IRL?
I don't think so. ChampCars are all the most "Driver controlled, balanced engineered and equal formula to race with an agreeable amount of Tech, no unobtainium, no automatic whatever-somewhere between manhandling a 4 on the floor behemoth with a pushrod and a weight problem, and an anorexic overachieving, put on a pedastal primadonna ultratech only a geek can understand Formula no numbers are left so call it 1"

David-GT Touring

[norman-normal]

Attack the post, not the poster - Jordi

[¡As-de-mim!]

Edited for inappropiate language - Jordi

[Omega99]

Acutually, I kind of agree with the sentiments of the original post. If every other event sells over 100K tickets EXCEPT most US events, where does it make sense to go? Everywhere else. Unfortunately, I wouldn't like to lose the history of the series at Long Beach, Laguna, RA, Mid-Ohio, Cleveland, Milwaukee, etc. We've already lost Michigan. These are events that are famous because of their past success, and the nature of the courses. They were successful events at some point, and so they've been with us for so long that we don't want to see them go.

But perhaps a more important reason for sticking with some of those races in the US is that if champ cars leave, they'll have an even tougher time breaking back into the market later on. Look at F1, which was basically driven off the continent by CART in the early 90s. Now they want in on the multi-billion dollar market in the US, so they go to Indianapolis, but they don't really fit in. (Of course, a lot of that can easily be blamed on Bernie)

But at least some US events that lose money should be dropped. I'm not sure which one's are/aren't, but Denver, Miami, St. Petersburg (or at least one of the two Florida races) could probably be dropped without anyone shedding any tears. And why isn't CART in South America? It's in the same time zones as NA, and CART popularity is through the roof in Brazil... It would be well worth the expense of getting there.

[Radioshoes]

Originally posted by racer69
I don't think there's any doubt that the 'new CART' won't be US based, or at least not as much as it has been.

Hmmm, I think that if Eccelstone is buying into it it has to remain US based otherwise why would he bother. He already has a European based series so there would be no advantage there. He wants the NA market.

Personally I would like to see a return to SA and I would also like to see Adelaide added. They used to put on a great F1 race. I would much rather see a race in Adelaide than in Malaysia or China... except that China has such a large market.

I would also like to see a car sponsored by Metallica or someone like that. I'm sure some of those groups could afford it. It would make for some interesting colour schemes.

There's some witches brew boiling in the cauldron and we just have to wait and see what pops out. Exciting isn't it?

Cheers

[The Snout]

Originally posted by gttouring
Pook is an Idiot (from RACECAR ENGINEERING magazine)"We want to maintain a level of Technology, that is important because our audience is young, upwardly mobile and technology conscious. we need to do something to appeal to this." Chris Pook says "we think a V10 is the smart way to go..about 3.0 litres and a common ECU" he goes on to say that the turbo option is 'more expensive' than the V10.
but it won't be like F1 "CART just does not have the budget for that"
Firstly
what is high tech to the NorthAmerican Market?What is a 'fast car engine?' A turbo- turbo equal faast to hotwheel buyers (anyone who is 20-39 knows any hotwheel car that looked fast very often had a turbo pinstripe or lettering on the quarterpanel or running board- this image id not lost on us as we grow)
what is special Gasoline or Methanol?
The Average fan (not us in the Forums who want tire smoke and methanol as potpouri) doesn't know CART is methanol powered or turbo V8's as F1 fans don't know F1 is V10 or Gas for that matter.
If you can pump it-it is not Hightech, methanol is percieved as such and it is a GREEN fuel (work that angle PookMoron)
V10 according to pook have "an aura of sophistiaction"
to who? f1 fans or V10 dodge viper drivers? or V10 ford/Chevy/Dodge Ram pickup drivers these are diesels or gas either way.
Secondly
A public copmany is ceratinly not asking thepublic what they'd like to see. not on the website anyway...
Research of a fan base-and possible new fans-could be done and he'd soon find out every RicedOut hatch owner would admit to saying a big engine is good but a turbo is the ultimate speed source. Look at the markets, everyone "turboes" their car to make it fst and poerful how is it that people who spend money (more than the value of the car)to build up a 5000 US dollar car? and then go drifting or go to shows spending wads of cash on tires and what have you not be a good bunch to see Cart as the ultimate expression of Turbo Power and Racing Tech?
This is just one group. The Loyal CART fans also would love to see prgress but at the expense of what? beig F1 lite? or like IRL?
I don't think so. ChampCars are all the most "Driver controlled, balanced engineered and equal formula to race with an agreeable amount of Tech, no unobtainium, no automatic whatever-somewhere between manhandling a 4 on the floor behemoth with a pushrod and a weight problem, and an anorexic overachieving, put on a pedastal primadonna ultratech only a geek can understand Formula no numbers are left so call it 1"

David-GT Touring

Yeah. I drive a Toyota Supra NA and have people pick me all the time for a drag. Are they picking me cause the car is a turbo ? Or simply cause the car looks fast ? In my experience, and by watching the schoolboys getting their wads off as I drive past, a fast engined car is perceived as anything with a decent kit on it. As you said the average fan doesn't not what's under the hood of a race car or indeed a perceived performance roadcar.

Point is people are fans of CART because of the racing. And provided a powerplant meets certain performance measures it don't matter a fiddler's to fans how that power is produced. CART's engine specs are trying to be tailored to encourage manufacturers into the series. Not at a minority of people who sit in front of their TV and jack off to reruns of Fast the the Furious.

[The Other Chris]

Well i think we lost Michigan (and all the ISC oval races for that matter) because of penskes move to the EARL. Frankly i never cared much for ovals but i dislike this trend toward mickey mouse street races. What cart needs to succeed however is getting paid for their tv coverage and to attract the engine manufacturers for the $. So that means doing whatever they want and not necessarily what the fan wants.

I think itd be good to stay at Lausitz but as im already hearing, next years brands race is canned. In that case what if cart raced on saturday on the silverstone F1 weekend (f3000 could race on friday afternoon or sunday morning who cares about them anyway). Thatd draw much publicity to CART and do well for the series and its drivers/sponsors to be in front of so much media etc.

[Lee Janotta]

I've got to agree on nearly every point with gttouring. Pook's understanding of the North American market is grossly distorted... But sadly Forsythe and Vannini are no more competent in that respect. Brilliant businessmen all of them, but they're hopelessly misguided on this subject.

The fans have spoken clearly, every damn time, in favor of the turbos, and retaining a variety of circuits. The manufacturers and the sponsors will follow the fans, _if_ you can provide some damn stability and a clear, easily marketable image, which CART has failed to do since even before the IRL split (Andrew Craig, Rahal, Heitzler... None of them knew what the hell they were doing as far as building an image for CART).

The Fast & the Furious crowd is the best hope CART has of attracting new blood among the fanbase. And you won't get them with eurosnobbery like V10s. NASCAR's too old-fashioned for their tastes. Right now many are gravitating towards WRC... But since rallying is very weak in North America (the US especially), that's a vaccum CART can and should exploit. But they'll need turbo engines, and lots of overtaking on track (passing points might become a good idea in this context).

And in the next generation of cars, they're going to have to cut the cost of a running a car for the full season by a large margin, or the field will remain tiny, and packed with pay drivers. V10s sure as hell won't help that goal.

Effing businessmen shouldn't be the ones crafting the image of CART. It's not what they're good at. They're wheelers and dealers, but they're _not_ visionaries! Guys like Mario, Paul Newman, Emmo, Gentilozzi... Those are the guys who actually care about the sport first, and the business second. And that's where the priority needs to be. It may sound naive, but it's a tried and tested principal: If your product's the best out there, _and_ you market it right, everything else will work itself out.

I hate to say it, but... NASCAR focused on it's product, and on it's marketing... _Not_ on stock reports and internal power struggles. And who's the 800lb gorilla now?

[Dov]

Well said, Lee!

[The Snout]

Lee I disagree with engine formula being a key ingredient in this whole thing as far as fans go. Provided the performance of any engine formula chosen is on a par with what we currently have, and we don't go back to using carburetors, the crowd will still follow the series. V10's, turbos, whatever. I simply disagree with the point that was made that the word 'turbo' has to be involved for fans to think it's a performance car. Right now I think fans are looking for a formula to be announced, and if tomorrow it was announced that V10's were it and we had manufacturers onboard there would be little protest. Same goes if it was announced that we're keeping the turbos. Fans might have a preference for sure, but a thing like engine formula isn't bigger than the series.

The rest I agree with, CART became popular by simply doing it's own racing thing and the crowds like us followed. If they go back to that with a well balanced series, balanced in every area such as tracks, driver nationalities etc etc and get back to the racing it'll grow again.