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Old 27 Mar 2002, 18:34 (Ref:245300)   #1
botsquad
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botsquad has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
tgf just loves the new rules.

Michael Schumacher has backed plans to drop drivers down the grid for dangerous driving.

.......
of course he does....since he will never.....ever
be penalised for dangerous driving.
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Old 27 Mar 2002, 19:25 (Ref:245332)   #2
drexel
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Actually the rule is to penalise drivers that could be deemed guilty of causing an avoidable accident.
And like Eddie Irv says, the real reason behind it is to manufacture more excitement.
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Old 27 Mar 2002, 19:32 (Ref:245333)   #3
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Spudgun should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpudgun should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpudgun should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
It's just a show to look the innocent.. He's been penalised before (Jerez '97) and wants to look as if he's setting the example. He wants the stewards for the upcoming races to see what a thoughtful and sensible driver he is. Then they might give him the benefit of the doubt for the odd trackwide chop or punt...

I'm all for conspiracy theories me!
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Old 27 Mar 2002, 19:51 (Ref:245344)   #4
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Or another way of looking at it is that M Schu is normally at the front anyway - no overtaking for him to do, of course he is going to back the new rules.

Last edited by Sodemo; 27 Mar 2002 at 19:53.
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Old 27 Mar 2002, 20:04 (Ref:245351)   #5
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J.McClane should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
You really do like your conspiracy theories dont ya Spudgun(why do they call you Spudgun??? )

But you are probably readin' too much into this, i could be just a simple case of Shu bribin' the officials, with all that money he earns
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Old 27 Mar 2002, 20:18 (Ref:245362)   #6
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Dr. Austin should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
yak, yak, yak. We are going to get all sorts of "safety first" posturing from the great one, but does anyone want to bet now that he won't do a full track width swerve on the next start? Or he won't swerve the next time someone tries to pass him? Or maybe he won't even pull out the old "deliberate, but instinctual.?"
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Old 27 Mar 2002, 20:52 (Ref:245399)   #7
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Glen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Chopping at the start aside (a dubious practice, I'll agree, but still within the "move once" rule) what other recent examples of Schumacher's driving trouble you? I cannot bring to mind a single instance of "swerving at another driver who is trying to pass", for example. The truth is that all of this bleating about barging people off the road refers back to 1997, which I regard as easily long enough to be long forgotten. And, for which he has already been served punishment.
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Old 27 Mar 2002, 21:01 (Ref:245409)   #8
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Damon should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
this new rule means bad news for JPM, he's going to be dropped down the grid for thinking about Schu now. Honestly any excuse and he'll be penalised.
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Old 27 Mar 2002, 22:20 (Ref:245462)   #9
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These new rules are idiotic. As I've stated on another thread last week, this gives more power to corrupt and generally idiotic racing stewards. We finally have a group of equally matched drivers and cars who are willing to go at it... Please... let them race.
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Old 27 Mar 2002, 22:34 (Ref:245472)   #10
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BBKing should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
After FIA penalized Zonta and Formula Juan for Schumacher's mistakes he must feel reassured that there is an extra rule FIA can use to help him. ad:
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Old 27 Mar 2002, 23:10 (Ref:245492)   #11
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Yeah!! You guys leave MSch alone - he's done nothing wrong.
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Old 28 Mar 2002, 01:07 (Ref:245558)   #12
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Jukebox should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Oh come on....stop badgering TGF. It was clear that the latest incident's penalty towards the other party was well-grounded.
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Old 28 Mar 2002, 05:58 (Ref:245677)   #13
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Originally posted by Jukebox
Oh come on....stop badgering TGF. It was clear that the latest incident's penalty towards the other party was well-grounded.
Correct.
At that time, evidence seemed to point to Montoya causing the problems.
In hindsight, we know that he should not have been punished.


If the new rule would have been introduced before Malaysia, Montoya probably would not have had his drive-through penalty. They could have waited until after the race, to gather more evidence. If the evidence would have shown that Montoya were guilty, they still would be able to let the race result unchanged, and put him back some places on the Brazil grid.
Under the old rules, if they would have waited until after the race, their only options would be either doing nothing, or disqualification. So they were forced to act during the race itself ...
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Old 28 Mar 2002, 06:14 (Ref:245679)   #14
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DonK: That's right. That's why most stick and ball sports have the referees using instant replay from different camera angles when they have a disputed call (at least here in N.A.)
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Old 28 Mar 2002, 06:19 (Ref:245681)   #15
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Glen
[B]Chopping at the start aside (a dubious practice, I'll agree, but still within the "move once" rule) what other recent examples of Schumacher's driving trouble you?"

Spa 2000. It was a full track width swerve right at Mika Hakkinen. Didn't you see it? It was on the third to last lap coming up the hill to Les combes at around 180 mph. Ron Dennis claims that Mika's wing was damaged in the contact despite Mika doing everything but drive in the wet grass to avoid the sudden, unexpected full track width swerve by TFG.

Schu did the same thing to JPM at indianapolis in 2001, but it was not as severe. It was still illegal.




"I cannot bring to mind a single instance of "swerving at another driver who is trying to pass", for example."

Spa 2000 is the ultimate example. someone please provide a link to the video.





"The truth is that all of this bleating about barging people off the road refers back to 1997,"

the truth is that he is still swerving at people and it is illegal every time. Want to see the FIA rules? Check it out;


"d) any obstructive manoeuvre carried out by one or several
drivers, either having common interests or not, is prohibited."

or

"The same penalty shall be applied to drivers who swing from one side of the track to the other in order to prevent other competitors from overtaking."

Swinging, swerving, what the hell is the difference? both are illegal.







"which I regard as easily long enough to be long forgotten. And, for which he has already been served punishment."

Yeah, he is the only man in history to disgrace the sport by being excluded from the world championship for dirty driving. And while he has served his punishment, he has also exhausted what benifit of the doubt that any of us might have owed him. Jerez was the proof that adelaide was no accident.
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Old 28 Mar 2002, 07:12 (Ref:245697)   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Don K
Correct.
At that time, evidence seemed to point to Montoya causing the problems.
In hindsight, we know that he should not have been punished.


If the new rule would have been introduced before Malaysia, Montoya probably would not have had his drive-through penalty. They could have waited until after the race, to gather more evidence. If the evidence would have shown that Montoya were guilty, they still would be able to let the race result unchanged, and put him back some places on the Brazil grid.
Under the old rules, if they would have waited until after the race, their only options would be either doing nothing, or disqualification. So they were forced to act during the race itself ...
Yeah...the race stewards would have more accountability if he'd have the option to gather more evidence through different angles of shots later after the race before making any decision.

But then, wouldn't it be better to get punished straight away rather then get disqualified or being pushed 10 grids behind for the next race?

JPM in fact got the better deal out of the incident ....good decision by the FIA as to not let any culprit have any leverage over his own doings.
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Old 28 Mar 2002, 07:28 (Ref:245700)   #17
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Splatz the Cow should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSplatz the Cow should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
FIA bites more than it can chew.......

Have the FIA made an even bigger blunder now? Nobody would call Schu to account before when the rules were already set. At least the F1 community was only partly focused on the problem. Now they have openly challenged the drivers that they will come down hard on bad behaviour, but do they have the nerve to enforce this strong stance, particularly against Michael? Michael is, well extremely assertive with his driving, and many here seem to think he is too aggressive and in fact breaking the FIA rules already with some regularity.

Have the FIA bitten off more than they can chew?
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Old 28 Mar 2002, 07:44 (Ref:245702)   #18
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Re: FIA bites more than it can chew.......

Quote:
Originally posted by Splatz the Cow
Have the FIA bitten off more than they can chew?

And the plot thickens......

I guess only time will tell.
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Old 28 Mar 2002, 07:57 (Ref:245706)   #19
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The FIA is really turning into a joke. To qoute Paul Tracy when speaking about the Cart officials las year "It would be better off being run by circus clowns". Well the same easily applies to the FIA as well.

For the longest time I gave them the benefit of the doubt, not wanting to believe that I sport I loved so much was being corrupted by a bunch of Idiotic race stewards with a blatant bias towards one particular team(no prizes for guessing wich team I'm talking about).

As for TGF comments, if he DID actally say that(I haven't seen an official source). It wouldn't suprise me in the least. Complete and utter hypocrite, just like his FIA clowns.
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Old 28 Mar 2002, 07:57 (Ref:245707)   #20
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Splatz the Cow should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSplatz the Cow should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
In addition, I would like to add that I am opposed to TGF's startline behaviour, and other dangerous tactics. I am a JPM fan 100%, through and through, since testing in CART, watched every race, all televised footage of him racing and I've backed him all he way..... -

- BUT.....

after watching Sepang's start and first corner again and again, I feel that from the entry to Turn1, to the apex, that JPM was the primary protagonist. He did squeeze TGF.... he did not leave one car width, this is clear from JPM's cockpit footage.

After the apex of Turn1 TGF deliberately pushed JPM wide, as shown by the Ferrari's vectors and wheel angle. Some of this may have been frustration at being squeezed at T1 entry by JPM. And TGF's tires may have been dirty.

JPM was probably frustrated by TGF's viscious swerve directly at JPM's line, causing JPM to lift (Avoiding The Accident,) this provoked or protagonised the turn 1 debarcle.

I would have served a penalty to neither driver, but put both on probation for three races with the threat of loss of points.

I find Michael's brilliance frustrating because of his inability to race wheel to wheel with people. I already know JPM can do this in CART lap after lap, and he had a good battle with Bunsen at Sepang in F1.

If Michael let his skills do the work instead of his nastiness, he would be faster, and we would see two phenomenally talented drivers go at it wheel to wheel, the way it should be done. Punting drivers in the dirt ruins the races for everyone. Except Mark Webber!

Here's hoping for good racin' at Interlargos.
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Old 28 Mar 2002, 15:43 (Ref:245957)   #21
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I have a rather unpleasant feeling that the first time this rule is invoked, it's going to be a really depressing event. I can't imagine it not being controversial -- these incidents tend to be, at the very least, open to conflicting interpretations.

That said, I think both DonK's and Dr Austin's remarks cast some useful light on the question -- thanks!

As for livening up the racing, hmmmm: Suppose one posits that driver X has a tendency to cause accidents, and punishes him by moving him back ten grid positions. The liveliness of the mix might then result from the fact that Driver X now has ten more cars ahead with which he can tangle at will...

Actually, I'm not *that* cynical. I suspect most incidents of this sort are one-off lapses in judgement, and not the result of a cost-benefit analysis of the possible outcomes of mayhem! MOST; there is always that margin of 'deliberate-instinctual' behaviour, to quote the good Doctor's sig...
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Old 28 Mar 2002, 21:38 (Ref:246187)   #22
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If TGF really did understeer into JPM at the first corner in Malaysia, why did he not have full lock on to the right at the point of contact?
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Old 29 Mar 2002, 02:07 (Ref:246372)   #23
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Liz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridLiz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
This is the TGF Affirmative Action Act, which will guarantee that TGF "wins" his fifth championship. The betting is very heavy on this and nothing must interfere.

Here are my predictions:

By the end of the season, out of 10 instances of this rule being invoked, 8 of these will have been invoked against Williams. JPM will still be staying right with TGF in the points and will be screaming his head off about it, as will everyone at Williams. Max will be saying "nonsense, it's just a coincidence."

TGF will have committed several blatant fouls deserving of the penalty, but in each case a race steward will explain why what he did does not qualify. In two of these cases, he will cause injury to another driver. Jacques and DC will both complain that TGF is getting favoured treatment. Max will say "Nonsense, there is no favouritism being shown to the 2002 World Driving Champion." He will say this in July.

When the repeated invocation of this penalty against Williams drivers does not give TGF enough margin to guarantee victory, the Williams will begin to be penalized for technical infractions, including if necessary disqualification from a race win. Max will say, "Nonsense, this is not a way to fix the championship. From now on the Williams will be allowed only one set of tires per race. Between them. Just to make things interesting."

It will come down to the last race of the season. TGF will drive JPM off the track and into a wall. He will "win" the championship and he will not be punished.

Max will say this is a coincidence.

Someone will hack into TGF's website and put a sign under his picture with the WDC trophy that says "Every year there is a winner. Not every year there is a champion."

It will be Rubens.
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Old 29 Mar 2002, 02:59 (Ref:246388)   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sodemo
If TGF really did understeer into JPM at the first corner in Malaysia, why did he not have full lock on to the right at the point of contact?
What do you mean by 'full lock on to the right'?
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Old 29 Mar 2002, 03:04 (Ref:246390)   #25
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jukebox, he means that the more the wheels are turned at an angle, the more you are inclined to understeer.
TFG's wheels didnt have much lock on them at all
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