FIA Papers.Why Replace What We Already Have???

[terence]

To All those Racing in FIA Cars,are you aware that you need to replace your current papers for next year? I dont really understand the need,after all, are not the papers we are in posession of good enough,anyone have any thoughts??O,K the proposed cost of £400 is not too bad but,surely these are not an absolute nessesity for the cars that have had papers from day one and still conform to the original spec!

[Peter Mallett]

Surely if you've got the HTP you shouldn't need to replace it. However if you are just building a car and thus putting it up as one of the "replica" type cars then you'd need to register it. Then any changes should also be registered.

[terence]

Exactly,but the problem is there for cars that have had the papers from day one. "New" builds obviously need papers.I really dont understand what the MSA are playing at.

[simon drabble]

this is an old debate and two camps seem to be forming, those (like me) who bought the bullet and did it earlier this year, and those that making a stand on the basis that if enough refuse it wont happen.
I think that rebels will be fine for another year but eventually all must accept the change -its not perfect but the old system wasnt either with the same chassis number in several cases getting papers on differnt cars and some countries giving papers out like sweeties - I doubt if the Fairline would have got papers in UK

[zefarelly]

as I understand it the old FiA papers will need replacing with the new HTP, there is also additional papers for genuine historic racing cars as opposed to cars that have just been built and prepared to a race spec, or facsimiles or whatever you want to call them.

personally, given the amount of cars you see with old papers that have been subsequently modified beyond all recognition I think its a blimmin good idea, especially as we seem to have a lot of race series without any eligibility control.

I think randon check/inspections might be an idea . . .if you've gone and got papers then modified the car too extremely, they'll catch you. If they subsequently remove your papers/sticker etc you can't race in that class . . . if you want the recognition back you have to pay for reinspection and re registration. might make people think about blatantly cheating all the time.

[terence]

That I fully understand Simon , but the cars that have not been altered over the years still have to have new papers for 2007.[ This was a replie to the earlier post]

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by terence bower

That I fully understand Simon , but the cars that have not been altered over the years still have to have new papers for 2007.[ This was a replie to the earlier post]

given the backlog I do not think its realistic to suggest that by the start of next season all the requests for new papers will be processed. In which case I think the race organizers will run on old papers for another season

[terence]

Yes Ifully agree ,IF this is a way to ensure that those car,s currently competing do FULLY conform then yes it is a good idea.Maybe a quick annual check would help,for anominsl fee.I guess the scrutineers will be having a pretty tough time of it then!

[zefarelly]

Given that certain MSA employees and eligibility persons attend a majority of race meetings I'd have thought this was a pretty easy thing to do . . . for one, carrying your papers with you and presenting them at scrutineering would be one way of checking, an example, are the wheels in roughly the same position as on the HTP papers photos? Is it the same car!? might sound a little extreme but it does happen and I can think of quite a few cars I race with that wouldn't get papers now that have had them for years

[Peter Mallett]

Can I get an HTP for my car? Its a 1978 model.

[terence]

I always carry my papers with me,If ,for example,you turn up at the Eiffle Classic without them, you dont race! Germanic Scrutineers I think should be at ALL of our races!!

[terence]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Can I get an HTP for my car? Its a 1978 model.

If you speak to the right person,--- maybe,Perhaps he will send an MOT as well.

[Peter Mallett]

Don't need an MOT ta very much.

[terence]

It seems to me that a Sticker will not ,on its own stop the cheats, the only way for that to happen is as you say Simon,for the scrutineers to LOOK at the cars, perhaps on a more regular basis.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Don't need an MOT ta very much.

I meant the CAR.

[zefarelly]

Good question Peter, I'm sure you can as it was homologated, you just have to pick the right papers I guess ( my car was homologated twice )

as for MOT's, all race cars should sail through really.

although I do remember giving a very wide berth at the WHT meeting last year to an unbelievably tatty MG Maestro, we're talking gaffer tape on the wheel arches tatty . . . . god knows how it got on track, it wouldn't have passed an MOT I'm sure . .I was terrified chunks were going to fall off and hit me !

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by terence bower

I always carry my papers with me,If ,for example,you turn up at the Eiffle Classic without them, you dont race! Germanic Scrutineers I think should be at ALL of our races!!

Likewise . . . Dijon last year, papers, car, both the same, pat on back, scrutineering passed with a free Gitanes !!!

[Jeremy Hall]

Peter in answer to your question , it depends on the car. The only purpose of the HTP is to lay down the approaved mechanical specification of a specific car in relation to appendix K. If you have a car which conforms to an International specification /formula which is catered for by Appendix K the answer is yes.If however you have a car which is to a national specification generally speaking you neither need nor qualify for an HTP.
As a generally reply to the issues raised. The old HVIF was introduced in 1988 and since then world wide about 10, 500 were generated by ASN.Three years ago subsequent to asurvey of all of them the FIA took the view that so many were out of date, wrong, were relating to specifications and waivers that had long since changed that a start again was the best way forward.
I saw them all and I agree.
Two other things. We reckon that there are about two hundred competitors out there today who regularly/or occasionally use the cars undere International regulations. That number is entirly manageable by MSA in the time frames.
On a world scale most ASN are now up to speed and have produced well over 50 per cent of replacement forms -and that 50 per cent of the totla issue many of which are now retired/changed hands etc.
To my informed view there is no chance of any roll over.
PS Looking forward to see ing your car again Terry

[Peter Mallett]

Thanks Jeremy.

Mine is in fact built to national regs so I guess I don't need an HTP.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

Peter in answer to your question , it depends on the car. The only purpose of the HTP is to lay down the approaved mechanical specification of a specific car in relation to appendix K. If you have a car which conforms to an International specification /formula which is catered for by Appendix K the answer is yes.If however you have a car which is to a national specification generally speaking you neither need nor qualify for an HTP.
As a generally reply to the issues raised. The old HVIF was introduced in 1988 and since then world wide about 10, 500 were generated by ASN.Three years ago subsequent to asurvey of all of them the FIA took the view that so many were out of date, wrong, were relating to specifications and waivers that had long since changed that a start again was the best way forward.
I saw them all and I agree.
Two other things. We reckon that there are about two hundred competitors out there today who regularly/or occasionally use the cars undere International regulations. That number is entirly manageable by MSA in the time frames.
On a world scale most ASN are now up to speed and have produced well over 50 per cent of replacement forms -and that 50 per cent of the totla issue many of which are now retired/changed hands etc.
To my informed view there is no chance of any roll over.
PS Looking forward to see ing your car again Terry

Thanks for that Jeremy, Im looking forward to you seeing it again!

[terence]

Does this mean then that all the other cars we have the pleasure of racing against will all be legal,and that some owners are going to be quite pee,d off when the cars are re-inspected?Just as an aside Jeremy ,am I correct in saying that the legal re-bore size for an MGB is only 60thou .?

[Jeremy Hall]

Second things first Terry- the maximum overbore for a homologated car is 1.2 mm. For the avoidance of all doubts the entire Appendix K is avaialble on the FIA website-www.fia.com and follow the Historic Sport links.
To address your ''have you stopped beating your wife Jeremy'' issue.
At point of inspection the cars will be legal-but what happens the second after the inspection is another matter.
Perhaps users of the forms should appreciate that they sign to say the car is legal, they sign the entry form to say the car complies with the rules, as a scrutineer I work on the basis that what I see is what it is. Old saying ''fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.''
Perhaps if some of the cheats lost their tickets for fraud it would sharpen things up a little.However when, for example prior to Spa, I get comments telling me that the writer will reveal the trickery relating to a particular marque after the event one ends up questionning the integrity of a lot of cars.
Simple really the organisers don't cheat, the officials don't cheat so I wonder where the problem lies ?

[terence]

Thanks again Jeremy, there-in lies the biggest problem of all, the people who bend the rules to thier own interpretation. How to stop the cars from being altered once your back is turned,I suppose the time scale is at a premium when we are all waiting to get our respective cars scrutinzed. May-be court action is the only way to put an end to it all,a bit severe perhaps, but I wonder how many people realize that they are actually commiting fraud by signing the relevent entry forms?. Im not trying to wind you up, I promise,its just that these issues have been going on for so long now and ,truth be known, it is ,reading through these pages, starting to P people off somewhat,people ,like me ,Simon ,Peter and all that love our racing and do,nt want it ruined by these people who obviously are cheating .I shar,nt bore you any more ,thanks again.

[zefarelly]

Thanks Jeremy, good posts.

and Me Terence !!! I uput a lot of effort into making a non competitive car competitive without cheating.

for example having pistons tailor made at 81.79mm because maximum over bore in my HOmologation papers says 1mm, even at 1.2mm I can't stretch to the cheaper option of using std 85.5mm twin cam pistons !!! the difference is negligible but I know most people ignore it and run at 1558-1598 instead of 1498. or 1529cc.

rules is rules, theyre not difficult to understand.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

as for MOT's, all race cars should sail through really.

although I do remember giving a very wide berth at the WHT meeting last year to an unbelievably tatty MG Maestro, we're talking gaffer tape on the wheel arches tatty . . . . god knows how it got on track, it wouldn't have passed an MOT I'm sure . .I was terrified chunks were going to fall off and hit me !

If it was mostly red then that was Penelope Pitstop's car, and it had a current MOT - I did the pre-MOT welding I've also raced it and can assure you it was quite safe. I do have to sadly advise that it poked a rod through the block at the last Castle Combe meeting and has now been retired. But I also advise that we know where 3 more equally scruffy ones are