WSR 3.5 driving standards

[chunterer]

Having read about all the shunts at Spa over the weekend, whether the weather was influential or not (it usually is!) the amount of damage done to cars and (in Vettel's case) drivers, i'm wondering if driving standards in the WS by Renault series is getting a little 'dangerous' once more?

There was a spate of ill advised and poorly judged incidents last year resulting in a few people getting the book thrown their way, but as the season prgressed things settled down a little.

Now it appears some people are getting a little OTT in their driving.

Reckons this is because the series is a combination of guys a bit inexperienced with the power and handling and guys who are getting a bit desperate to keep their names noticed.

It's time for organisers to 'have a word'....

What do we all think?

[bella]

i certainly think it's a fine example of a bunch of undertalented drivers being put in overpowerful cars.

to the organisers credit (ugh i thought i'd never say this) they are trying to have words, but... well, it's a collective problem isn't it? and taking more money off them isn't going to help. they've all got too much in the first place, that's what's causing the problems. (waiting for the robbie kerr fangirls in 5... 4... 3...)

i'm really not sure how they should deal with it. clearly issuing a bo... shouting at isn't helping. maybe just put them all in formula fords and they can learn to drive like civilised adults like they should have done in the first place.

(fwiw the weather was only an issue in race 1. they did it all by selves in race 2)

[nev]

I remember stating at the start of the season after the Zolder fiasco that certain drivers needed to be taken down a notch or two before someone gets seriously hurt but once again i was told that my suggestions were unreasonable and unnecessary. were they Bella !! i did also say that i didn't want to be proved right, but unfortunately it seems i am.

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by bella

i certainly think it's a fine example of a bunch of undertalented drivers

Seriously how can you call the drivers in WSR undertalented? That is very harsh looking at some of the drivers in the championship, especially the top few guys.

[Pink_penguin]

I agree with Runshaw

In every championship you will get the drivers that simply dp not have the talent to be there - but they do have the cash!

I wouldnt say the World Series is any different to any other championship in this regard.

From what I hear these cars are extremely difficult to handle, very tough on the steering as theres no assistance and huge bulky tires - with extreme power behind them - must be like drivng old school american power vehicles.

I would say I am certainly not a fan of Renault's handling of drivers in any form so it may be there lack of training or punishment to incedents of this nature that arent influencing the drivers enough to take enough care on track... Having said that though it should be common sense!

[strider]

Originally Posted by bella

i certainly think it's a fine example of a bunch of undertalented drivers being put in overpowerful cars.

That's certainly a sweeping generalisation. I take it you would agree there are some exceptions?

[Alfonso de Orleans]

Generalisation means there are exceptions :-)

[Kebab]

I'm sure if they bothered to heavily penalise bad driving they'd all soon behave themselves. Rossiter has taken out how many cars? Kerr has been taken out of 4/5 races (once in the pit lane!!!)?!? It is insanity.

Vettel was very lucky to not lose the finger or worse.

[bella]

there are absolutely some exceptions, but there is definitely a reason they start behaving like hooligans in this formula in particular, and i believe that it's something to do with having too much power. gp2 is at least restrictive in that there's not many cars, and it's decidedly expensive to compete in.

perhaps it's the theory that you need to have someone who knows when to be defeated in a successful overtaking move, and when to try and come back and have another go.

vettel's accident was a freak one. let's not go blaming a random occurance of fate with a bit of flying debris on any drivers in particular.

i certainly don't think making an example of any driver is a good way for renault to go.

pink_penguin - the description you give of the style of driving the cars provoke would indicate that this series in particular will exaggerate when a driver is past his talent. it's worth bearing in mind that there's no formula below this with the same handling characteristics really (unless you start looking at clubbies, and none of the drivers here are really from that background), so any of these drivers in their first years will be on a bit of a learning curve.

got to give it to renault - what they've created certainly creates some "excitement" for those who like accidents. so surely it's a bit of a.. contradiction to start penalising people for not being able to handle the cars they've created

[runshaw]

There is only 4 more cars in WSR than GP2!

[bella]

yeah, but... ah, you know what i mean. the price is considerably lower, and the entries aren't as restricted (?)

[strider]

425bhp in a car weighing 680kg with driver doesn't sound excessive to me.

Maybe they sound more powerful than they are. There doesn't seem to be any indication of silencers!

Vettel's performances before the unfortunate accident at Spa suggest a reasonably competent driver can manage very well.

But you can add Matteo Meneghello to the list of drivers who shouldn't be there. He clattered Alvaro Parente into the pit wall before the start of Race 1 at Spa, simply by pulling straight out without paying any attention to passing traffic.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by bella

. . . maybe just put them all in formula fords and they can learn to drive like civilised adults like they should have done in the first place.

. . .

Bella, I think you and I must have been watching a different set of Formula Fords for all these years. I had never thought of holding up FF as an example of more responsible driving. Exciting - yes, often. Safe, responsible (and boring?) - No I don't think so - well not often.

I only saw WSR last year at Donington and thought that they were great. Looking forward to them again in September.

Regards

Jim

[Pink_penguin]

Originally Posted by bella

pink_penguin - the description you give of the style of driving the cars provoke would indicate that this series in particular will exaggerate when a driver is past his talent. it's worth bearing in mind that there's no formula below this with the same handling characteristics really (unless you start looking at clubbies, and none of the drivers here are really from that background), so any of these drivers in their first years will be on a bit of a learning curve.

It has to be said I doubt the talent of my source and you may be right there Bella

[bella]

on the other hand, he could be entirely right and they could have just reversed the steering column on 3or 4 cars a race at random just for the hell of it

jim, i think my point perhaps is more that drivers deal with their inner hooligan in formula ford where they can't do too much expensive damage rather than those who bypass it and end up straight in something much more expensive that really needs responsible driving

[Mr.Dallara]

I was in Spa last weekend and I can tell you there was every lap a small war on track for every place, second en tenths of a seconde.

Some pics of the "crash-boom-bangs" on track:

R1 - Vettel on top of the Raidillon in the batle with Maldonado...






R1 - Bruce Jouanny on the Raidillon just 300meters after the restart...









In race 2, the cars must waiting more than 50minutes on the grid! (In the GT3 race before was a real big crash where a car cross the wall... a lot of work for the technical people of Spa for rebuild the rails...)
All the young drivers on the grid were of course now very nervous and it was again "crash-boom-bang", now in the first lap on Les Combes for 3 cars!
Valsecchi brake's a lot to late go in the back of Van Lagen and Jaap hit McIntosch...


Some pics of the carambolage in Les Combes:












Greetz Mr Dallara.

[HitMan13]

Originally Posted by strider

But you can add Matteo Meneghello to the list of drivers who shouldn't be there. He clattered Alvaro Parente into the pit wall before the start of Race 1 at Spa, simply by pulling straight out without paying any attention to passing traffic.

i have not watched Meneghello enough to be 100% sure of his talent, but for sure you cannot blame him for this accident. have you ever sat in a WSbR car?

a) you sit very low (as all good single seaters should)
b) wearing a HANS device
c) the car is at a 45 degree angle to the fast lane

all this combined means it's damn hard to do a shoulder check! which is why each car has a mechanic that sends the driver into the fast lane. the driver simply needs to trust him, watch him, and go when he says.

what i find absolutely funny is that MM's mech was livid and going off at Parente as if it was his fault!!

[strider]

Originally Posted by HitMan13

what i find absolutely funny is that MM's mech was livid and going off at Parente as if it was his fault!!

I think that's known as passing the buck! In the circumstances I'll excuse Meneghello this time, but his mechanic should be dangled by his toes from the tallest tree in the Ardennes!

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Mr.Dallara

. . .
Some pics of the carambolage in Les Combes:



. . . .

"carambolage", what a splendid word. We ought to import it into English at once. Who reading the report above (and thanks for the photos ) did not know at once exactly what was meant even if their French is as minimal as mine.

I shall try and find an opportunity to use it in my next observer's report. (Formula Fords at Oulton will probably provide me with an excuse. )

Regards

Jim

[hotwheels]

Have we been discussing this kind of issue last season? Don't you think that the current WSbR 3.5 grid is at a lower level, in terms of driving skills? The car and the series look really great, but maybe the hotshoes are driving GP2 or Euroseries, for example.

[chunterer]

Reasonable point, but I wouldn't necessarily go along with that.

I'm not even sure that this years GP2 grid is as strong as last years overall.

Re WSR, sure Kubica got a dream ticket as BMW tester and Markus W got a similar gig with MFI but other than them a lot of the good guys have stayed on for a second year.

Certain drivers have clearly cleaned up their act like Pastor who is having largely a consistent season.

Borja Garcia proved last year he was ok in GP2 and has arguably undelined his quailty this year in WSR.

Kerr is a quality driver, so is Rossiter, Mcintosh, Vettel etc..

These are the kind of guys that would be looking hard at arranging whatever is necessary to move to GP2, as they wouldn't look out of place in it.

I really do think that a few people might be overdriving and this aspect meets inexperienced guys head on which has led to carnage.

[bella]

having said that we all blame those who have run out of talent, if they've run out of talent then generally they're at the back. so how can they interfere with those who are in the right series?

then again, there's the odd one who can produce a fast lap and then have no idea how to reproduce it, but off the top of my head i can't think of any of that sort of driver in the world series.

going back to something strider pointed out on the last page i think, it's not that there's too much power in the car rather that there's too much for this level. before the appearance of wsr/fnissan and the f3000 chassis series, there wasn't really much in between f3000 (i forget which engine size these use) and things like frenault 2000, frenault 1600 and f3. i appreciate f3000 fields were bigger (and there were non-qualifiers), but there wasn't so many chances for a driver who perhaps shouldn't be driving the more powerful cars to actually race them. at least in europe, anyway.

maybe we need to go back to the days where the field is too big for the circuit, so that the less capable drivers don't get so many chances to cause issues. then we can see if that really is the issue or whether it's just that too many people want to be a hero

[Bezzen]

Alx Danielsson is currently trying hard to find enough cash to be able to be on the starting line for the next race after two cars were completely wrecked at Spa. First he was hit by a flying wheel from Vettel's car in race one andf then in race two the tyre exploded in 270 km/h.

Instead of two probable podium finishes he got two wrecked cars. Someone really needs to stop putting needles in the Danielsson-voodoo-doll.

[bella]

doesn't he have insurance to cover things like that?

[28Twelve]

Mybe we need a return to the day where F3000 was the only real supplier of future F1 talent?

It seems to me that World Series by Renault, GP2, F3000 and possibly even A1 GP (though it has its own agender to compete with F1 rather than supply.) have been created to supply for the demand for an F1 understudy championship. If you look at the amount of drivers that wish to compete in these championships - back in the day - simply wouldnt have got the chance and would have had to wait there turn - if talented enough (or rich enough) to get a drive in F3000. SO maybe the fact there are now more opportunities for the lesser driver to progress to the dizzy heights of an F1 understudy championship, is the real cause of all this crazed slaughtering of bad drivers in ill disciplined championships?

Lets not forget, everyone wants to become the next Alonso and drivers are now being pushed through the ranks faster than ever...