Dome LMP Discussion

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

EDIT: ACO website has an interview with Henri: http://www.lemans.org/fr/courses/24-...ique_6828.html

Henri explains that they are working on reducing the strong vibrations of the Judd V8, he repeats that they were 3 seconds slower at Motorland Aragon than the Peugeot 908 in private testing which confirms that diesel cars still have an advantage and finally he reveals that the Dome will do more testing at the Bugatti circuit tomorrow.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Henri explains that they are working on reducing the strong vibrations of the Judd V8, he repeats that they were 3 seconds slower at Motorland Aragon than the Peugeot 908 in private testing which confirms that diesel cars still have an advantage and finally he reveals that the Dome will do more testing at the Bugatti circuit tomorrow.

That's 3 seconds without the holes, and further restrictions of the Diesel.

As far as i know Peugeot never tested the 2012 908 at Aragon?

[TF110]

The R18's weren't far off what their times were last year. And with the new Ultra they probably gained back what they lost. So the 3 seconds difference might come down some, but not enough to make them level in Henri's eyes.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

As far as i know Peugeot never tested the 2012 908 at Aragon?

Not with 2012 aero, but the hybrid 908 likely tested at Aragon before Peugeot decided to pull the plug.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

The R18's weren't far off what their times were last year. And with the new Ultra they probably gained back what they lost. So the 3 seconds difference might come down some, but not enough to make them level in Henri's eyes.

3 seconds on a 1m20 lap is a lot. That is in advantage in lap time for diesels of almost 4%.

A lap at Le Mans takes about 3m30. In that case 4% signify a difference of almost 8 seconds!

[TF110]

Obviously! Which is why he has been vocal about the equivalency.

[chernaudi]

The HPD's and OAK weren't very far off the Audi pace at Sebring, and were usually well within that 2% window that the ACO give. Problem there is that Audi had the 2011 cars at Sebring, were running with a 15kg BOP penalty, and were probably to an extent sandbagging.

Either the Judd V8 is that far off or something else is off. And we have to question the car--the S102, like the S101, was designed for straightline speed. Maybe a lack of downforce as well as adapting a car designed for the 2008 regs to the 2012 regs wasn't the best way to go.

[Simmi]

Nothing in this package is optimal for going head to head with Audi so I'm not really sure what Henri expects to be honest.

I'd be gobsmacked if he came out saying they were on a par or quicker. They've done a fraction of the work of Audi.

[TF110]

Wait. If the car was designed for straight line speed, then Henri saying they lost 2 seconds of the time from the straight line speed, it's most likely down to the engine. In fast tracks with long straights, the other 2012 cars may be down on top speed as well with the holes and reduced power. Around turns is where they will gain their time I presume. But being that the DOME isn't really the type of corner carving car it seems they'll fall back pretty hard from this. Considering the low engine power, then the increased drag.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Nothing in this package is optimal for going head to head with Audi so I'm not really sure what Henri expects to be honest.

Exactly. For a 2008 car with minimal updates and an engine that apparently tries to escape from under its cover, I think 3 seconds sound pretty good.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by TF110

Wait. If the car was designed for straight line speed, then Henri saying they lost 2 seconds of the time from the straight line speed, it's most likely down to the engine.

It might have been designed for straight line speed, but that was four years ago. Audi and Peugeot since then had to improve their cars massively each year to fight the other so it wouldn't surprise me if Audi had an aero advantage over the Dome, now that they also have a coupe at least.

I agree with Simmi. Dome might be in contention for best privateer (or best petrol car, that is, with Toyota weakened), but I'd not bet my money on it. I fear it will be a very tough year for Pescarolo with both his cars.

[Félix]

From memory, the HPD engine deal is 3 times more expensive than the Judd. That's over 2 million $, which is more than 50% of what Pescarolo budgets to run a car for 1 year.

[The Badger]

Where did ya get that figure from ? Pescarolo screams tight budget , but runs a quality show . I strongly suggest his bedget is substancially bigger than you suggest .

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Where did ya get that figure from ? Pescarolo screams tight budget , but runs a quality show . I strongly suggest his bedget is substancially bigger than you suggest .

And he lets on for that matter .

Ya gotta love ol'Henri .

[Félix]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Where did ya get that figure from ? Pescarolo screams tight budget , but runs a quality show . I strongly suggest his bedget is substancially bigger than you suggest .

I can't seem to find the quotes I had in mind concerning budget, but there is a pretty strong feeling that's he's been running on a shoestring budget in the last years, even more so when travel has become more expensive now. Just look at how bad it was for the team when they destroyed a 908 in 2009. It can't have cost more than a million but look at what it did to the team - and he was too poor to insure the car in the first place...

Henri is lucky to be able to line up the few millions needed - but he's not as lucky as the other P1 teams that can count on benefactors that provide comparatively endless budgets.

[Dyson Mazda]

Why doesn't he ditch the AMR-One/Pesca 03 project and just partner with Dome? It seems like it would make sense.

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

Why doesn't he ditch the AMR-One/Pesca 03 project and just partner with Dome? It seems like it would make sense.

Not at all, IMO. I think Pescarolo will bring hybrid technology in the 03, he said the tub of AMR is prepared for hybrid tech... so Pescarolo want a car that can win, not a car to do the Pole... i think

[gwyllion]

http://endurance-info.com/version2/a...nce-10336.html has a short report of todays test at the Bugatti circuit.

In order to solve the vibration issues, the Judd V8 is installed on silent blocks.

They had hoped to do some running on a dry track, but Minassian had to stop to car because of an oil warning light. The cause of this warning turned out to be a failure of a crankshaft bearing, which meant the end of the test session.

The article also contains a photo gallery: http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...o.php?page=976

[The Badger]

Wasnt the LMP2 Dome that Kaneko raced a couple of years ago , also called an S102.5 ?

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

Why doesn't he ditch the AMR-One/Pesca 03 project and just partner with Dome? It seems like it would make sense.

Maybe they dont have the money to partner Henri . They have been feeling the pinch for a few years now , and I was quite surprised to even see this happening .

Be great to see Dome do it alone ..... with a HPD engine though . That Judd needs big work to bring it up to industry standards I feel .

[WMUCarGuy]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Wasnt the LMP2 Dome that Kaneko raced a couple of years ago , also called an S102.5 ?

S101.5 I believe.

[chernaudi]

I wonder if the bearing issue is similar to the one that took out the OAK Pescarolo at Sebring--it seems that the teams are having to make that V8 punch above its weight to be competitive against the HPD and TMG V8s, and the engine's paying the price.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I wonder if the bearing issue is similar to the one that took out the OAK Pescarolo at Sebring--it seems that the teams are having to make that V8 punch above its weight to be competitive against the HPD and TMG V8s, and the engine's paying the price.

I think this may be a historical issue whereby the V8 Judd engine was designed as an LMP2 engine at a certain power level and crankshaft operating speed range for that particular LMP2 dricve cycle, but when the ACO stepped these LMP2 engines up to the LMP1 class it appears to have played hell for Judd, first for the 5.5 V10, aparrently the crank torsional vibrations were so bad they resorted to the older 5.0 Engine in the grandfathering situation........now I suspect as the V8 is more powerful in the LMP1 scenario it has shifted the crankshaft operating speed into an regieme whereby its torsionally vibrating very badly, to hear that they have resorted to mounting the engine on isolator blocks is not good to hear, but I guess needs must and all that........saying that this is pretty much the route that Dyson and Deltawing have taken whereby the engine is not really fully or semi-stressed like a traditional LMP engine installation........Judd should be able to install a crankshaft torsional damper on the nose of the crank of on the intermediate drive gear between the crankshaft and the cam drives and solve the problem.........realistically this is the same problem that blighted the Ford-Cosworth DFV in 1967, it can easily be retro-fixed if they get the right bits to bolt on, lets hope thay can fix it, best it happens now rather than in the 3rd may test or the race

[ep16]

I have to say the Dome looks absolutely gorgeous, such a pretty design! Got a horrible feeling the engines won't go 24 hours tho...or anything close to that unfortunately. Still, Judd have a just under two months to get it sorted, alot can happen in that time.

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by ep16

I have to say the Dome looks absolutely gorgeous, such a pretty design! Got a horrible feeling the engines won't go 24 hours tho...or anything close to that unfortunately. Still, Judd have a just under two months to get it sorted, alot can happen in that time.

judd doesn't update their lmp engines from years, what could you expect in a pair of months?