Driving standards/ stewarding

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Casper

I se Marko & Horner have thrown their toys out of the pram and are threatening lawyers at 20 paces. I always wonder if stuff like this would happen if the team who felt wronged in stuff like this were in a reversed position and what their response would then be.

Does the cost of paying for these lawyers come from inside, or fall outside of the cost cap?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Casper

I se Marko & Horner have thrown their toys out of the pram and are threatening lawyers at 20 paces. I always wonder if stuff like this would happen if the team who felt wronged in stuff like this were in a reversed position and what their response would then be.

I somehow suspect disgust and contempt....

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Does the cost of paying for these lawyers come from inside, or fall outside of the cost cap?

Inside, one hopes!

[chillibowl]

What exactly would be the point of legal action here?

A harsher penalty for Lewis? Points removed? Money?

Does the world council (or whomever) even look at stuff like this?

[S griffin]

They are considering taking the matter further with the FIA. That’s what I read

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

60/40 laying the blame on Hamilton actually means it's 100% Hamilton's responsibility. Contact that is not seen as cynical so Hamilton is let off from full responsibility.

Plausible deniability, considerations that were all too hard for the earlier generations is becoming less and less tolerated nowadays and a level of accountability has to occur. A much higher level of accountability is becoming necessary.

I would say it's best to do something about it now before the next race. Kicking the can down the road is just going to lead to a bigger ****storm.

wnut is bang on in the race thread,

Originally Posted by wnut

There is a little thing called a WDC on the line, and Hamilton's mistake has benefitted himself handsomely and cost his main rival dearly, for no real penalty.
You can't expect it to be much appreciated or easily accepted.

Toto was whining about the cost cap implications of his drivers ruining a couple of wings on a curb, however Hamilton has succeeded in writing off a complete car, engine, gearbox for RBR,

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

60/40 laying the blame on Hamilton actually means it's 100% Hamilton's responsibility. Contact that is not seen as cynical so Hamilton is let off from full responsibility.

Not necessarily. It's certainly not what I mean by 60/40. If we were saying, 60/40 Hamilton/Racing Incident, then it could be possibly be argued (for what it's worth). If we are saying 60/40 Hamilton/Verstappen then it clearly can't.

The 'kicking of the can' is being done primary by Horner and RBR supported by the legions on social media.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

60/40 laying the blame on Hamilton actually means it's 100% Hamilton's responsibility.

Not necessarily.

Driver A is on a road and catches up with Drivers B ahead. Driver A decides he is going to overtake, but Driver B takes umbrage to this and decides to pick up their speed whilst Driver A is alongside. Neither driver backs down, and then a car is heading to them in the other direction. If a head-on collision occurs:

Is Driver A to blame for not backing out of the overtake?
Is Driver B to blame for not allowing Driver A to overtake safely?

Or is Driver A 60% at fault for failing to avoid a head-on collision, but Driver B is also 40% at fault for contributing to the situation? A 60/40 incident.....

[wnut]

Article from Brundle covering the incident:

https://inews.co.uk/sport/formula-on...rcedes-1114543

That is worth a read and brings up some interesting points.

Horners view:

“I am told by Red Bull there is data to prove Lewis was significantly faster into Copse than at any other time and he would not have made the corner without running wide, and inevitably contacting Max,” Brundle wrote.

“Presumably, that will be made publicly available and if Red Bull feel they have ‘new evidence’ they may well make an appeal to the FIA as to their perceived degree of fault and leniency regarding Hamilton.”

Mercedes official, chief technical officer James Allison, suggested that “if you look at the stewarding document then I think that Lewis did nothing wrong” because Hamilton had been “substantially alongside” Verstappen at the point of the incident, and therefore should have been given space rather than being required to cede it.

Allison also claimed that Hamilton would have been able to take the corner had they not collided, one of the requirements of the rules, and if Red Bull do indeed have data that shows he had never made the corner from that position and that speed before, or since, it might be that Hamilton is bang to rights.

However, the stewards could also argue that they agree, and have already punished him for it. Red Bull may not like it, but they may have punished him just enough to make the penalty hard to change.

One could also argue that Hamilton was nowhere near alongside when and just before the contact, so the stewards just plain got the decision wrong.


The other quote that does not play very well for Hamilton is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVOLUNQEA9M
2 minutes 10 secs

Damon Hill points out that “it was Lewis who said: I’m a street fighter and if you want to be rough with me, I’ll show you what I can do”

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

60/40 laying the blame on Hamilton actually means it's 100% Hamilton's responsibility. Contact that is not seen as cynical so Hamilton is let off from full responsibility.

Plausible deniability, considerations that were all too hard for the earlier generations is becoming less and less tolerated nowadays and a level of accountability has to occur. A much higher level of accountability is becoming necessary.

I would say it's best to do something about it now before the next race. Kicking the can down the road is just going to lead to a bigger ****storm.

wnut is bang on in the race thread,

It acutally doesnt.

Even the race stewards said it was 'predominantly' hamiltons fault, not wholly his fault.

Hamilton wasnt let off, he served a 10 second penalty and came back to win, just as others have done before.

wnut wasnt spot on, as the rules are currently written, you penalise the contact and not the outcome. As Masi has already said, all teams signed up to this, they are the current rules...you cant just start changing them becuase it suits you or your favorite driver is taken out.

A couple of weeks ago people were calling for less penalties, horner was slamming the stewards for the penalties given to Perez...

As ive said before, i suspect peoples views on this incident would be entirely different if it was Hamilton on the outside...people would be saying he turned in on Max....

Biases aside from both camps, 10 second penalty was appropriate and the norm for this sort of contact, infact less has been given to the likes of Albon, Magnussen for similar contact on the same circuit and corner and even Max escaped penalty in the Portugese race after contact with Perez last year.

Anyway, as pointed out elsewhere, beating dead horse....time to move on.

[S griffin]

The fact is Lewis has been punished. He got a penalty for what for me was a bit of an ambitious move and I don't think he deserves more for it. Let's hope it doesn't happen again. What more can they do? Masi is trying to make everyone know where the stand when it comes to driver conduct and penalties. I just hope we see less dangerous moves now

I agree that they have gone too far with punishing fairly innocuous incidents, that are just racing incidents. However I am finding Horner to be spouting his mouth off too much. Nothing more to say, he needs to just accept things and move on or he'll just be more unpopular.

We'll see if the penalty changes the way Hamilton races for the next few GPs. I just hope they focus more on the dangerous stuff rather than the lesser incidents that are just mistakes. Incidents happen, it's racing. Sometimes it just can't be avoided despite the drivers' best efforts

Let's leave it at that, we've got Hungary this weekend to look forward to and hopefully everything will be more settled this weekend

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by S griffin

However I am finding Horner to be spouting his mouth off too much. Nothing more to say, he needs to just accept things and move on or he'll just be more unpopular.

Theres form for this is there not?

2020/21 has a pattern emerging.

Silverstone - Horner complains about Albon penalty
Bahrain - Horner complains about Max penalty
Portugul - Horner complains about Max penalty (twice)
Austria - Horner complains about Perez penalty
Silverstone - Horner complains about Lewis penalty

I just get the feeling that Horner doesnt like stewards..when his drivers get penalised its too harsh, when another driver isnt penalised its too lenient.

Now i can understand a team manager standing up for their team but Horner takes it way too far....to the point where it feels like football players trying to crowd the referee....its getting too political for my liking.

Im not sure ive seen ANY team manager, in ANY motorsport series milk an incident such as this. Weve seen championship leaders been taken out in F1, Touring Cars, NASCAR, Indycar, Sportscar racing etc.....and i cant remember anyone reacting like this.

[Aysedasi]

It'll certainly be good to have another GP, then we can hopefully properly move on from this saga....

Perhaps we could crowdfund this for Horner......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lip_sewing

Lip sewing may be done for aesthetic reasons, or to aid meditation by helping the mind to focus by removing the temptation to speak.

Sounds spot on.....

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

It'll certainly be good to have another GP, then we can hopefully properly move on from this saga....

Perhaps we could crowdfund this for Horner......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lip_sewing

Lip sewing may be done for aesthetic reasons, or to aid meditation by helping the mind to focus by removing the temptation to speak.

Sounds spot on.....

Brilliant idea. I'm in.

[S griffin]

Let’s just find him another job, it might suit him better to have a change

[Skam85]

The anti-Red Bull bias in here is almost as much as the perceived anti-Hamilton bias.

[wnut]

Well done comparison between Hamilton Verstappen and Hamilton Leclerc overtaking for students of racing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK72at4cwOY

[Adam43]

Not sure it’s anti Red Bull bias. Just finding Horner tiresome.

I’m pro Red Bull (not the drink, that smells vile). Hence find it annoying that they are not just getting on with the racing. They’ve got a great car. They’ve got a spectacular driver. They’ve got a second driver that we all like. And then they have the ultimate moaning minnie. Which is the one that detracts from the others in this?

Give it a rest. He’s like some smuck on a Internet forum who moans all the time.

Dust yourself down and get on with winning the next race. It’s still in your hands. Now that I will admire.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Not sure it’s anti Red Bull bias. Just finding Horner tiresome.

I’m pro Red Bull (not the drink, that smells vile). Hence find it annoying that they are not just getting on with the racing. They’ve got a great car. They’ve got a spectacular driver. They’ve got a second driver that we all like. And then they have the ultimate moaning minnie. Which is the one that detracts from the others in this?

Give it a rest. He’s like some smuck on a Internet forum who moans all the time.

Dust yourself down and get on with winning the next race. It’s still in your hands. Now that I will admire.

True.
If only everyone had the Danny Ricc attitude when he got a 5s penalty in Russia - "I'll just have to drive faster"

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Not sure it’s anti Red Bull bias. Just finding Horner tiresome.

This re Horner. Throw the name Marko into the mix and thats where I am with Red Bull. Those feelings spawned back when all the anti-Renault 'Bull' was going on.
I understand that they have to take a pro RB stance on everything but they just go too far.
As for the drink, never managed to get passed the smell test to actually taste it.

[Anyopenroad]

+1 for pro-Red Bull anti-Horner/Marko #prbahm

I’d add that aside from being unpleasant whiners, I think it’s a shame that Verstappen had to do his growing up in public with such poor guidance/mentors. I mean, who would you rather trust a prodigous talent to:

Wolff/Lauda/Hamilton Sr or Horner/Marko/Verstappen Sr?

[peebee2]

You certainly wouldn’t want them anywhere near Hamilton sr!

As the di Restas know well.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

+1 for pro-Red Bull anti-Horner/Marko #prbahm

I’d add that aside from being unpleasant whiners, I think it’s a shame that Verstappen had to do his growing up in public with such poor guidance/mentors. I mean, who would you rather trust a prodigous talent to:

Wolff/Lauda/Hamilton Sr or Horner/Marko/Verstappen Sr?

+2.....i really like Red Bull, what the team have done this year to get the car competative is incredible...theyve done an amazing job, i just dislike horner and Marko...

...i think its fair to say is ANY indivudual cried like horner over the last 10 days, they would be getting stick for it.

[Casper]

Unfortunately Marko and Horner are just doing their job and that is to get a result that benefits RB, that is what they are paid for and that is what they are doing to the displeasure of a lot of people. They are running a media campaign in the best way they know and backing the FIA into a corner on purpose and I would not be surprised if they were successful.

I would have paid money to have been there just to see Verstappen senior's reaction when it happened, I must admit he is one person in F1 I do not admire at all and never have but Marko is a close second. Both are ex drivers and for ex drivers who have been there and done it all sometimes their reaction to stuff makes me wonder if they both have amnesia. They remind me of two bully boys in a school yard TTTT.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Casper

Unfortunately Marko and Horner are just doing their job and that is to get a result that benefits RB, that is what they are paid for and that is what they are doing to the displeasure of a lot of people. They are running a media campaign in the best way they know and backing the FIA into a corner on purpose and I would not be surprised if they were successful.

I would have paid money to have been there just to see Verstappen senior's reaction when it happened, I must admit he is one person in F1 I do not admire at all and never have but Marko is a close second. Both are ex drivers and for ex drivers who have been there and done it all sometimes their reaction to stuff makes me wonder if they both have amnesia. They remind me of two bully boys in a school yard TTTT.

To be fair, Horner is an ex driver too....admittedly a bad one.

I Think we all realise Horner is playing a game, in such a public world where trial by social media is a big thing it will probably work too, but unfortunately it will also divide the fanbase and could lead to things becoming quite toxic.

As mentioned before its almost like players crowding a referee trying to put pressure on the FIA/ Formula 1 to get things to go in their favour.

Id respect them far more if they just got on with the job and kept their dirty laundry behind closed doors.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Skam85

The anti-Red Bull bias in here is almost as much as the perceived anti-Hamilton bias.

I notice you didn't use the word 'perceived' for the RBR bias. As Adam says, Horner and Marko have become pretty boring in their response to a racing incident, leaving aside the strong whiff of hypocrisy. The anti-Hamilton bias isn't particularly strong here thankfully, we have FB for that.....