Bernie

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Soo, anyway this Bernie bloke.

I don't fancy a weekend at his

[Peter Mallett]

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Well, no accommodation appears to have been found as BCE appeared in court today, where he plead not guilty to fraudulently not disclosing approximately $600 million in a trust in Singapore. This was just an initial hearing, and the case was continued to a date in September, and he was granted bail to appear at that date.

Interesting comments in the BBC article:

'Police warned photographers not to mob him outside court because of his age.'
'Chief magistrate Paul Goldspring allowed Mr Ecclestone to stand outside the dock after his barrister, Clare Montgomery QC, said her client was "having a little bit of trouble hearing".'


A cynic would suggest that his legal team are playing the age card in the hope of leniency?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Interesting comments in the BBC article:

'Police warned photographers not to mob him outside court because of his age.'
'Chief magistrate Paul Goldspring allowed Mr Ecclestone to stand outside the dock after his barrister, Clare Montgomery QC, said her client was "having a little bit of trouble hearing".'


A cynic would suggest that his legal team are playing the age card in the hope of leniency?

Bernie playing tricks? Surely not!
(It may not be the right thing to do, but I do admire the old boy and hope I'm still as sharp as he is when/if I reach his age!)

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

A cynic would suggest that his legal team are playing the age card in the hope of leniency?

He should go full Weinstein and use a walker and have a dazed and confused look on his face at all times.

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

He should go full Weinstein and use a walker and have a dazed and confused look on his face at all times.

Richard

I don't think that he needs to fully do that; looking at the photo of him reminds me that he is over 90 now, and he doesn't appear to be as sprightly as he was when he was ousted as FOM's CEO.

Mind you, appearances can deceive, and therefore it is quite possible that his mind (that word again) is as sharp as it ever was in the past.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62633873

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

it is quite possible that his mind (that word again) is as sharp as it ever was in the past.

Ditto his practices...

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I'm assuming you are holding Spain, Monaco, Austria, Hungary, Belgium and Netherlands to the same standard of being acceptable for generating a profit in?

I find it remarkable that anyone could compare human rights in any European country with those in Russia, China, Saudi Arabia or any middle eastern country. As far as I know all the countries mentioned in the above quote and all in Europe, have democratic elections every 4 or 5 years which is a basic human rights requirement. Could the poster remind us when meaningful elections were last held in Russia, China, Saudi, etc.

[midgetman]

Bernie - good for the sport or not? Do we prefer today's multi-million sport to the derring-do of yesteryear?

I think I know the opinion of us oldies over on the Historic forum, but what's the feeling in a younger demographic?

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Bernie - good for the sport or not? Do we prefer today's multi-million sport to the derring-do of yesteryear?

I think I know the opinion of us oldies over on the Historic forum, but what's the feeling in a younger demographic?

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

I'm the wrong side of 60, so no spring chicken. I actually don't see much difference between what Bernie did and Liberty are doing now. Liberty are continuing to add more races to an already lenghty calendar, to the detriment of European races, with countries like Qatar and Saudi Arabia, whose crowd attendance is minimal and yet are willing to pay through the nose, so they can be part of the F1 Club.

If there is a difference, it's Liberty's expansion in United States. Though having said that, Bernie always wanted another GP in the US with Manhattan as the backdrop.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by morninggents

I find it remarkable that anyone could compare human rights in any European country with those in Russia, China, Saudi Arabia or any middle eastern country. As far as I know all the countries mentioned in the above quote and all in Europe, have democratic elections every 4 or 5 years which is a basic human rights requirement. Could the poster remind us when meaningful elections were last held in Russia, China, Saudi, etc.

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Soo, anyway this Bernie bloke.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm the wrong side of 60, so no spring chicken. I actually don't see much difference between what Bernie did and Liberty are doing now. Liberty are continuing to add more races to an already lenghty calendar, to the detriment of European races, with countries like Qatar and Saudi Arabia, whose crowd attendance is minimal and yet are willing to pay through the nose, so they can be part of the F1 Club.

If there is a difference, it's Liberty's expansion in United States. Though having said that, Bernie always wanted another GP in the US with Manhattan as the backdrop.

Yes and with Germany gone, despite the constructors champion of the past 8 years coming from there and now Spa under threat, I have lost a lot of faith in Liberty. They are chasing the money just as much as Bernie did

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm the wrong side of 60, so no spring chicken. I actually don't see much difference between what Bernie did and Liberty are doing now.

I can agree with that - I think the main difference is the route to where the 'control' of F1 came from.

Bernie is described as a 'British business magnate' - but it must not be forgotten that he got to that status inside the sport. A driver, turned manager, turned team owner.

Whereas Liberty Media is an 'American mass media company' that started out as a spin-off of an American cable-television group.

[wolfhound]

For what its worth see the 2 links for democracy rankings below, it does not take much guessing as to the lowest countries.



https://www.visualcapitalist.com/map...emocracy-2022/


https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...racy-countries

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Bernie - good for the sport or not? Do we prefer today's multi-million sport to the derring-do of yesteryear?

I think I know the opinion of us oldies over on the Historic forum, but what's the feeling in a younger demographic?

Good of you to consider some of us "younger" - will tell myself that next time I consider my craggy visage in the mirror!

Bernie, good for the sport? 100% yes - were it not for Bernie and his new approach, we simply wouldn't have seen the commercial explosion that gave us a much, much better sport overall. In his later years, I think the question becomes far more debatable and probably not the 100% but to my mind at least the vast change and stability within the sport brought about by Bernie far outweighs any negativity from his most recent years.

In many ways, Bernie invented the model for commercial sport administration and structure, with many other sports over the years taking up a similar model after the success of F1 became evident.

Now, I may be biased as I worked on Bernie's F1 team and have worked in sports administration quite a bit so have seen positive reference after positive reference to the structure he set up and if I am biased then so be it but yeah, I think that he was very good for the sport.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Tourer

In his later years, I think the question becomes far more debatable and probably not the 100% but to my mind at least the vast change and stability within the sport brought about by Bernie far outweighs any negativity from his most recent years.

curious what we would consider his later years? post manu era, post CVC capital partners era?

Originally Posted by Tourer

In many ways, Bernie invented the model for commercial sport administration and structure, with many other sports over the years taking up a similar model after the success of F1 became evident.

no doubt what he did with a relatively small staff was massively impressive but surely F1 has long diverged from how other global sports leagues have organized their byzantine league offices/departments no?

not that i am necessarily a fan of the direction that Liberty has gone in (more races, more media presence, more dramatization all in pursuit of a bigger audience), but surely there is an argument to be made (and depending on your position an argument in support of BE) that he failed to adequately commercialize/monetize the sport...which makes F1 very different to how other sports are run.

not a bad thing mind you because as we see now that as great as more coverage/better access is, it comes with a price tag of more races and a more diluted product.

for the most part, i could have done without his often distracting and tedious sounds bites (aimed at stirring up controversy i imagine) but at the same time i didnt really mind them either. something to talk about i guess.

bigger issues for me would be the lack of transparency under his tenure (frankly it makes it harder for fans to talk about the sport when we really dont know the most basic details like contracts), special payments to some teams (sports should provide a base equal starting point otherwise is it really a sport), and some of the questionable venues (which now we take as a given and accept that F1 will go places for money and not for attendance figures).

issues i would say started back when him and Max carved up the sports commercial interests?

all that said though, the supremo was a great character and for good or bad i miss him at the races.

by comparison, look at who we have now. not that i dislike Domenicali or moustache before him but they just come across as a bland corporate empty suits who lacked that independent spirit BE brought (putting that F1 logo on their white shirts made them look like a retail store managers - tacky imo).

anyways, im all over the place here...its really a difficult question!

[Mike Harte]

Chilli, my response in red:



no doubt what he did with a relatively small staff was massively impressive but surely F1 has long diverged from how other global sports leagues have organized their byzantine league offices/departments no?


FOM had personnel of Bernie and just one assistant, and the business was carried out in one room in his London home. Liberty now have a huge suite of offices in one of the most expensive commercial areas of London with countless staff doing just as much as Bernie did almost by himself.


not that i am necessarily a fan of the direction that Liberty has gone in (more races, more media presence, more dramatization all in pursuit of a bigger audience), but surely there is an argument to be made (and depending on your position an argument in support of BE) that he failed to adequately commercialize/monetize the sport...which makes F1 very different to how other sports are run.


The commercial side of F1 was run very professionally considering that it was just Bernie and one assistant. It must be borne in mind that he ran it for the benefit of the teams and, of course, himself. Both they and he certainly benefitted greatly from the monies that produced, as well as bringing, with Max, stabilisation to the sport after the turbulent years prior to them taking over.

not a bad thing mind you because as we see now that as great as more coverage/better access is, it comes with a price tag of more races and a more diluted product.



Selling out to Sky has not benefited the viewing public as figures have shown. Bernie didn’t do us any favours there.

for the most part, i could have done without his often distracting and tedious sounds bites (aimed at stirring up controversy i imagine) but at the same time i didnt really mind them either. something to talk about i guess.


Often done to distract from something that he didn’t want to address.


bigger issues for me would be the lack of transparency under his tenure (frankly it makes it harder for fans to talk about the sport when we really dont know the most basic details like contracts), special payments to some teams (sports should provide a base equal starting point otherwise is it really a sport), and some of the questionable venues (which now we take as a given and accept that F1 will go places for money and not for attendance figures).


Why? It’s a private “business” that just so happens to be seen in public. As such, surely, any financial deals between the teams and FOM are private and what right do we have to be a party to them? If some teams don’t like special payments made to certain teams, they can always withdraw from the championship – I would like to think that if enough of them had threatened to do so, then those special payments would have stopped before now.


It also has to be remembered that Bernie , on more than one occasion, financially helped out teams when they were in financial distress. Do you recall that he paid at least two months salaries for all the staff of one of the teams a few years ago.


issues i would say started back when him and Max carved up the sports commercial interests?


That wasn’t their idea; it was forced on them by the EU as it was considered to be uncompetitive as it was previously, and the EU was threatening to ban races within their borders.



What was wrong is that the FIA, or maybe Max, sold the commercial rights to him far, far too cheaply.

all that said though, the supremo was a great character and for good or bad i miss him at the races.

by comparison, look at who we have now. not that i dislike Domenicali or moustache before him but they just come across as a bland corporate empty suits who lacked that independent spirit BE brought (putting that F1 logo on their white shirts made them look like a retail store managers - tacky imo).

anyways, im all over the place here...its really a difficult question!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

bigger issues for me would be the lack of transparency under his tenure (frankly it makes it harder for fans to talk about the sport when we really dont know the most basic details like contracts), special payments to some teams (sports should provide a base equal starting point otherwise is it really a sport), and some of the questionable venues (which now we take as a given and accept that F1 will go places for money and not for attendance figures).

I agree with Mike's comments that generally contract details (such as driver contracts) are frankly none of our business. I do agree with your comment that the sport should relatively be run equitably. I think there is room for not everyone being paid the same, but I think Ferrari carried an inordinate amount of power previously. And it is telling that this power is now gone.

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

FOM had personnel of Bernie and just one assistant, and the business was carried out in one room in his London home. Liberty now have a huge suite of offices in one of the most expensive commercial areas of London with countless staff doing just as much as Bernie did almost by himself.

Whenever I hear this repeated, I don't deny he ran a light operation, or that currently Liberty might be (or maybe not?) a bit organizationally fat. And I appreciate the message this story is trying to tell. But I also tend to think it is a bit apples to oranges. For example... I absolutely do not believe that two people did it ALL. I CAN imagine two people barking out orders to a number of others in other parts of the larger complex F1 puzzle.

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

What was wrong is that the FIA, or maybe Max, sold the commercial rights to him far, far too cheaply.

And probably for too long of a period.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

[COLOR=red] Why? It’s a private “business” that just so happens to be seen in public. As such, surely, any financial deals between the teams and FOM are private and what right do we have to be a party to them? ...

maybe this is a difference of age or more of a n.american attitude or perhaps just my own personal belief but my answer to 'Why?' is simply because it is sports and sports belong to the public.

if they want it to be private then run it behind closed doors but they dont because they need our attention and the ensure the praise we offer is genuine we as the public need assurances that said sport is being conducted in a fair and sporting manner.

again just my personal belief, but if the finances are being obfuscated then i can guarantee you that so to is everything else, and in when it comes to sports that can and often does include competitive side of things is also being undermined.

i could prattle on about the IOC or any of the numerous 'unsporting' outcomes from F1's own history but easier to say that im a big proponent of transparency.

mind you, im not necessarily advocating that they personally announce their finances to the world but i do very much like that the sport itself, via the budget cap, is going down a path where the teams have to justify to its own governing bodies that they will operate within the framework of the rules and the generally accepted practices of fair play in competition.

for me thats a great compromise.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

maybe this is a difference of age or more of a n.american attitude or perhaps just my own personal belief but my answer to 'Why?' is simply because it is sports and sports belong to the public.

I know you are not responding to me, but a point and a question..

1. Sports belong to the public? F1 is professional sports. It is commercial first, sports second. You might even say that ideal for non-professional sports doesn't even exist today in things like the Olympics (just look at home much branding and sponsorship exists in "Amateur" sports.)

2. Where else in sports do we know details of contracts? I don't follow NFL, etc. But my guess is that the answer is in professional series in which salaries are controlled as part of the financial model used by that series (such as cost caps). So contract information is known not out of a "right of the public", but because that is how the commercial side is structured. F1 might get there eventually. Right now drivers and a few others technical heads are excluded from the F1 cost caps. So those details are not public knowledge.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

contract details (such as driver contracts) are frankly none of our business.

more then the contracts between FOM and the teams, i for sure have a bigger pet peeve with the driver contracts.

of the major sports in the world, F1 is pretty unique in that we dont know the value of athlete contracts. and sir frankly we are talking about other sports that enjoy tremendous levels of fan engagement much greater then what F1 enjoys...respectfully i ask, are they the ones doing it wrong?

i live in a very blue collar canadian city which naturally loves our hockey team (go Jets!) with great passion. the city as a whole supports them both emotionally and financially...dont think you are going to find a single fan that is not interested in equating the performance of an athlete with their remuneration.

or on a team level, is there really no interest here in better understanding how teams evaluate and reward talent? for me i would even argue on a societal and cultural level there is even great importance in the public knowing these things.

honestly i dont even want to think about what the lack of transparency in regards to wages would suggest about the inequality that exists within this motorsports culture and/or rather, how public knowledge of those details would improve things for the better.

so yeah its fair to say, what people get paid is of massive importance to us all particularly in industries which primarily exist within the public consciousness.

anyways i very much hate when we disagree Richard!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

anyways i very much hate when we disagree Richard!

First... Absolutely no worries here!

I talk as if it is my salary that is being exposed. Or that this is a big deal for me. It just happens to be what we are talking about today.

For me it is more of a "principle" thing. There are many, many things the public should know. But I don't think in general the public needs to know how much people are paid. Public servants, I can see the benefit, for private commercial entertainers? Why is it any of their business. It only becomes fodder for discussion by voyeuristic fans. What did they eat for dinner yesterday? What books are they reading? I am curious. But none of my business. Unless they share.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

of the major sports in the world, F1 is pretty unique in that we dont know the value of athlete contracts. and sir frankly we are talking about other sports that enjoy tremendous levels of fan engagement much greater then what F1 enjoys...respectfully i ask, are they the ones doing it wrong?

I don't equate successful fan engagement with knowing details of player salaries. F1 could expose driver salaries and still do a horrible job with fan engagement. They could also do a fantastic job with fan engagement and not expose driver salaries.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i live in a very blue collar canadian city which naturally loves our hockey team (go Jets!) with great passion. the city as a whole supports them both emotionally and financially...dont think you are going to find a single fan that is not interested in equating the performance of an athlete with their remuneration.

No doubt. It will always be a topic of discussion (see my comments above about fodder for fans). If you know it you talk about it. If you don't know it, you speculate and talk about it. It becomes a topic of discussion. For fans, EVERYTHING is a topic of discussion and nothing is off limits. We talk about public information, but at the expense of personal privacy? For example Lewis' fashion preferences. It has little impact on his F1 performance, but it is a fan discussion topic. Now he doesn't keep it secret, but regardless, how much value does talking about it provide? Probably close to zero. But it is still talked about.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

It just happens to be what we are talking about today.

Lol ain’t that the truth!

[thetool]

Plead guilty: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67088503

Bet he's not going to see any jail time.

[Sodemo]

He knows where all the bodies are buried...