Honda or Toyota?

[Wrex]

Two great adversaries quiet similar to Mercedes and BMW. But unlike these 2, neither has attached themselves to a top team.

So they are waging battle in the mid-field, but make no mistake, the war is just as intense (or even more so) as the one at the front.

Coming 5th in front of the other is one thing, but the bragging rights will go to the one that can secure a race win, and ultimately, the WDC/WCC.

As a Honda fan, I've always been impressed with their road going product and they are my sentimental favorites. However, Toyota seem vastly more committed.

They have gone it alone (Honda's mistake IMO) adn )so far) are spending the money that it takes to win. There are investing in the future, and recruiting staff to help them achieve the goal.

IMO, you either have to go it alone (like Toyota) or attach yourself to a winner (like BMW).

So, Can/will either do it? And if so, which will do it first.

[climb]

Continuing like this, only Toyota seems able to get the top, just because of their vaster commitment.
Actually Honda doesn't apper interested at making it, and that's strange.
Anyways till they continue with this lethargycal partnership with BAR, it's hard to predict a radical change.

[Bononi]

Toyota no doubt will beat this game. They improved a lot, and next season is looking bright.

[Mr V]

Mike Gascoyne will help improve things for Toyota.

However, at the moment, i can't see either Honda (with BAR) or Toyota doing anything to challenge Renault, let alone the top 3, and i can't see that changing.

[BootsOntheSide]

A BAR win in 2004 doesn't seen inconcievable if there's a race where the top teams struggle. However, Toyota will be mvoing forward by 2005 with their first Gascoyne-design and probably an improved driver lineup, and BAR may struggle to move forward much in the near future

[DNQ]

Don't be surprised to see a lucky BAR win in 2003 now they're Michelin shod ... especially if the new McLaren and Ferraris are a little fragile, and Renault drop back as might be expected.

[shiny side up!]

I think we will see the BARs a bit stronger than the Toyotas is '04, but am expecting Toyota to take the lead of the pair in '05 and onwards. Toyota has the better chance to challenge for a title in a few years, although a few podiums might come BAR's way this year (especially early on), and I think they may give the Renaults a decent challenge in the COnstructor's Championship.

[neilap]

It it were up to who has the most money then Toyota would be the hands down favorite. I dont see the improvement or the strides that Toyota has made. They qualified light in the last two races of the season just for publicity. It had nothing to do with actual race pace. In fact all season long they did that. For two years in a row they are the slowest team on Michelins, does not sound like an imporvement to me.

For the first time ever BAR has been the 2nd fastest team on BS. If they had been given eqaulity on tire choice who knows what they could have accomplished. Considering the BS tires were weaker and that Ferrari were given top priority I am surprised they managed to hold on to 5th. By far though their biggest problem was reliability. This is, should be, their main concern. Switching to Michelin is double edged. Michelin may give them better treatment but all he other teams have more experience with the tires over differing conditions.

Its not money that makes winners, even in F1. Toyota may eventually be able buy themselves a title but I doubt they will be there before BAR Honda. The team is committed to winning. The problem is/was the lack of structure. Its just what DR said, the teams politics was like a top team while they were struggling at the back. They have been trimming fat for a couple of years now and I hope/expect to see a marked improvement from here on.

[Mark Webber]

Toyota will win this fight hands down IMO the car/team has improved of proir year and I see no reason why it would stop . Toyota only requier a top line driver line up OP & Cd ae doing a good job and all but other's could do better.
BAR have a top driver in Button and a good team but I have little to no faith in Honda & sato

[RWC]

Honda haven't got a frigin hope in hell.They just aren't interested at all.I wish it was different of course.

[HKUSP40C]

Originally posted by RWC
They just aren't interested at all.I wish it was different of course.

Yeah, they pour millions of dollars just to throw away. They had a decent year considering they were on Brickstones. Their engine was fairly reliable all year barring Indy and one of the most powerful if rumored to be a bit on the heavy side. Wait till next year where they are on equal footing as Toyota and we'll see who is the better team.

Toyota will win this fight hands down IMO the car/team has improved of proir year

Because they improved? What did BAR do, go backwards? BAR did better considering the tire handicap, horrible reliability, and all the internal politics. IMO, BAR made more of a step forward from the previous moving brick of a car than Toyota has with its predecessor.

I would rather see any team do better than Toyota, and this comes from someone who drives a Lexus and a Supra.

[GP Racer]

I think Honda/BAR are ready to take the next step now. I think there driver line-up, with Button/Sato, is going to be a great combination, not only because I think there very good drivers, but because there good company men, hard workers, and real team players. That's what BAR has been lacking over the years. These two guys can bring this team together, make them more optimistic, and get them all believing that they can win. I like what I am hearing from Button already.

Remember Indy and Suzuka last year. There were moments of brilliance there and it bodes well for there future...

[neilap]

Originally posted by RWC
Honda haven't got a frigin hope in hell.They just aren't interested at all.I wish it was different of course.

You are right, they are not interested at all...

... not in what Toyota does, nor what "experts" think they should be concentrating on.

What they are interested in is winning a title with a Honda powered car, built by Honda engineers using Honda technonogy. They want to do it as Honda, the Japanese team, not some EuroJapanese whatever they can buy team. There are easier ways to win, they have chosen to do it themselves and with a team that is growing with them.

In some ways its good that there are doubters. I hope the people at Honda see the "expert" opinions and get even more motivated from it.

Last weekend I watched Cory Spinks, a relative unknown take two belts from Ricardo Mayorga who was supposed to just destroy him. Sometimes, you underestimate sleeping giant, things have changed a lot at BAR. Honda has a lot more to say about what goes on in the team and the improvements have already become evident.

[Fogelhund]

Originally posted by GP Racer
I think Honda/BAR are ready to take the next step now.

Unfortunately, heard that how many years in a row now? Really, I don't think BAR have the stuff. Toyota has shown the Moxy to hire away whatever parts they currently need. By 2005, I expect them to take a great leap forward, and 2004 they should be fighting hard with Renault and Sauber.

[f1manoz]

IMO Toyota will end up whipping everyone eventually. They are acquiring all the right people, have enough money to have three F1 teams and are seriously committed to this venture. (My personal opinions of Toyota themselves are vastly different to what is started above)

Honda made the wrong choice going with BAR. They needed to have their own team. Add to that their commitment to F1 seems dodgy at best and I don't see Honda dominating F1 like they did in the late 80s/early 90s.

[Logrence]

Toyota are absolutely 100 per cent committed...to world domination. And it starts with the Formula One World Championship.

They're putting more effort into Formula One than any of the other teams on the grid. The fact that they have this Ferrari-style setup where they do everything themselves is indication enough of their commitment.

[x_dt]

Wouldn't be surprised if both Honda/BAR and Toyota finish in the constructors top 5 next season. Especially if (as some have suggested) Renault struggle having reverted to a 72 degree engine.

[BootsOntheSide]

Reasonable theory there x_dt. Both should mvoe forward greatly, although Toyota may improve as the season goes on, because Gascoyne's had little involvement in the design but lots as the development goes on. Both will ahve to watch teh reliability though, what with the one-engine rule.

[touringlegend]

BAR Honda will move forward further in the short term, but I forsee Toyota having greater lasting success at the top of the field.

It's funny I'm not the only one who thinks Honda have approached todays F1 somewhat half hearted, whereas if you look at Toyota they realise it's bad for company image if you don't succeed, so winning must come at all cost.

[BARrouette]

Both team will do great but Toyota is gona be better.If David Richard leave the f1 then honda will have a better chance.

[mabs_nsx]

I am a huge honda fan and I really follow them in F1 and other motor racing series to. I am very confident that they will be taking on the big three or at least renault. Honda are ranked 4th oue of every engine manufacture in the amount of races won
Race Wins:
1 Ford/Cosworth 176
2 Ferrari 167
3 Renault/Mecachrome 96
4 Honda 71
5 Climax 40
6 Ilmor-Mercedes 33
7 TAG-Porsche 26
8 BMW 18
8= BRM 18
10 Alfa-Romeo 12
11 Maserati 11
12Mercedes* 9
12= Vanwall 9
13 Repco 8
14 Matra 3
15 Weslake 1
16 Toyota 0

Just look at the success they had in the early 80's/late 90's and if BAR and honda work together and put in as much as theve got they may just start winning again and they may posible be fighting for both titles in nere future. As for toyota, don't expect much from them because they are still quite knew in F1 and they haven’t really got what it takes yet and if they ever win races it won't be for a very long time.

In conclusion I am sure that there will be no cometition between them because of the simple fact that honda are just to good for them!!!

P.S. GO HONDA!!!!!

[mansellmania]

Its not that honda isnt commited, its more that they arent as commited as back in the 80's erly 90's

Apparently the new topmanagers at honda dont seem to take f1 so serious and only use it to train engineers.
Untill last year BAR got a whole new team of engineers just about every new season.
Thats no way to start f1.
Their engines blow up bigtime and nothing back of the cunning edge techno stuff from 10 years ago.

Its clear something needs to be changed to make them competative again.
not so sure if BAR is the right team to achieve that.
lots of management reshuffle there as well as at honda.

[neilap]

Firstly, Honda has always trained its engineers in motorsport. They are losing absolutely nothing in F1 by rotating out the engineers. They are not changing the lead engineers its the newbies that are being educated to the ways of Honda. The main structure is still there. This is an excellent way to make everyone feel involved in the sport. It creates a great mood for the company. Think of what Toyota did... they moved to Germany to use European people; as though their own are not good enough. Toyota only wants to win so they can brag about it. Honda wants racing to be in the veins of everyone that works for them. They want to win more than anything else but they also want to learn.

As for Honda not being as serious as before, they did not have the compitition that they do now. They were the clear cut top engine manufacturer with two of the best teams in the sport. BMW is now in the situation and has thus far not done much with it. Honda had only two engine failures last season. If that is blowing up big time then poor Mclaren, Williams and Renault who had more engine failures than they did. BAR Honda is not going to just fire people so they can blame them. The team is growing together. DR knows how to manage a team. JB is a good driver Sato is a diligent student. Honda is more involved in F1 now than they have ever been, (besides when they made their own car). I like the way they are doing things. The last part of the season was turning around for them. Tires affected them as much as the lack of reliability. So far the concept car has not had any major failures and the drivers like it. All the parts are coming into place, its the execution now that has to be perfected.

[Thorstone]

Originally posted by BARrouette
Both team will do great but Toyota is gona be better.If David Richard leave the f1 then honda will have a better chance.

I agree

[Snrub]

Toyota is clearly WAY more commited. Toyota has improved steadily in both years they've participated. However, their Williams-esk actions and treatment of drivers in 2002 really annoyed me. In 2003 they seems to be a bit nicer.

Honda has wallowed at the back with brief appearances closer to the front. It's not all thier fault, BAR has really poor hydrolics that simply explode a moment's notice. In Austraila the hydrolics exploded 4 times or something!