The Future of F3

[CATMAN]

Peter Cammish - "I love the throw away lines like its £550K- £650k, lets have some perspective"

F3, Euro F3, F Renault or whatever. In F3 you have a few drivers in recent seasons with immense wealth behind them.
At the F1 end of Motorsport you have the ever present Bernie factor. Billions in the bank and billion $ or £ deals whilst the F1 teams are constantly pressured to reduce budgets whilst the paddocks are still full of bling and the car parks full of automotive exotica with private jets and helicopters and yachts in the back ground.
Bernie pockets billions and the glittering image of F1 has permeated the whole world of F3 and other formulae. A huge amount of F3 and other budgets is based on the UK team owners and team staffs demands for salaries and lifestyle. Many race teams are basically very small businesses, whereas the small local UK engineering business owner or builder with a dozen employees and similar annual turnover is driving a Mondeo or a 5 year old 5 series, look at the team cars and bling. The big "I AM" is one of the budget problems, quite often team management fancy hotel, restaurants, business class flights and more take a sizable chunk of the budgets. As they say, there is no "I" in team and God forbid that many race bosses travel within sound budgetry constraints with their team.
I don't quite buy into Edenrace's scenario about what drivers want. Team owners and management are often more concerned with trying to attain the same kind of glitz and glamour that F1 has rather than present sensible budgets that drivers and a series can handle realistically. Plus very few teams have professional business orientated managers who can make good business and budget plans.
Presenting a "Pro Look" with bling and team kit in the pit lane and on the grid is not the same as having a professionally run economically sound sensibly run business.
Find me a team boss who is really interested in the young skilled talented driver struggling and working his butt off to find a 100k per season, the Fantin and Petronas money is what runs an M5

[Deemun]

Originally Posted by CATMAN

Peter Cammish - "I love the throw away lines like its £550K- £650k, lets have some perspective"

F3, Euro F3, F Renault or whatever. In F3 you have a few drivers in recent seasons with immense wealth behind them.
At the F1 end of Motorsport you have the ever present Bernie factor. Billions in the bank and billion $ or £ deals whilst the F1 teams are constantly pressured to reduce budgets whilst the paddocks are still full of bling and the car parks full of automotive exotica with private jets and helicopters and yachts in the back ground.
Bernie pockets billions and the glittering image of F1 has permeated the whole world of F3 and other formulae. A huge amount of F3 and other budgets is based on the UK team owners and team staffs demands for salaries and lifestyle. Many race teams are basically very small businesses, whereas the small local UK engineering business owner or builder with a dozen employees and similar annual turnover is driving a Mondeo or a 5 year old 5 series, look at the team cars and bling. The big "I AM" is one of the budget problems, quite often team management fancy hotel, restaurants, business class flights and more take a sizable chunk of the budgets. As they say, there is no "I" in team and God forbid that many race bosses travel within sound budgetry constraints with their team.
I don't quite buy into Edenrace's scenario about what drivers want. Team owners and management are often more concerned with trying to attain the same kind of glitz and glamour that F1 has rather than present sensible budgets that drivers and a series can handle realistically. Plus very few teams have professional business orientated managers who can make good business and budget plans.
Presenting a "Pro Look" with bling and team kit in the pit lane and on the grid is not the same as having a professionally run economically sound sensibly run business.
Find me a team boss who is really interested in the young skilled talented driver struggling and working his butt off to find a 100k per season, the Fantin and Petronas money is what runs an M5

What incentive is there in getting in a talented but under funded driver? Sure thay may help the team to win the championship but at the end of the season they will move on and the team hasn't made any real money out of them. Far better to have a wealthy under achiever who will likely stay for a 2nd season; maybe the first season the team will run them in the National class, they'll still make a very good profit and then in season two move up to the International class whether they are ready or not because that way they hang onto them.

F3 is made up entirely of very wealthy drivers or the fortunate few that sre supported by schemes such as Red Bull or RSF. Where is there a genuine under funded talent at the moment trying to compete? Probably haven't seen anything like that for 3 or 4 years now.

[bella]

i think a lot of the ones who are very borderline on the finance keep quiet on it.

shouting and screaming about being short on funds to play at the weekends when to all intents and purposes, to the majority of people in your home country, you live a privileged life, is a very awkward thing to do. particularly when lots of people are struggling to make ends meet.

there's not many professions beyond commercial flying courses where you have to put that much money up front to stand a chance of getting a paid job at the end of it.

Originally Posted by CATMAN

Many race teams are basically very small businesses, whereas the small local UK engineering business owner or builder with a dozen employees and similar annual turnover is driving a Mondeo or a 5 year old 5 series, look at the team cars and bling.

to be honest the same thing has always puzzled me. we're part of that small local engineering business owner circle (not the royal we), and my folks - the bosses - both drive cars 15 years old and over. my old man suggests it's unwise to drive a new car when you're trying to keep your employees on side, and if you turn up to a customers business in a flash car, it suggests you're taking too much profit and the customer will likely try and sting you for more discount. turn up in a clean, smart but old car and it presents a better impression.

on the other hand my previous boss proudly drove around in an aston martin, which he said simply showed his customers - supermarkets - that his company was doing well. it showed the customer that the company was worthy of dealing with them.

in a way motorsport falls between the former situation - r&d engineering - and the second - sales. since very few drivers management and parents have scored their wealth through engineering, thus the sales approach is more likely to impress them.

i'm not trying to justify anything, but you know. keeping up appearances and all that.

[Peat]

Originally Posted by CATMAN

Presenting a "Pro Look" with bling and team kit in the pit lane and on the grid is not the same as having a professionally run economically sound sensibly run business.
Find me a team boss who is really interested in the young skilled talented driver struggling and working his butt off to find a 100k per season, the Fantin and Petronas money is what runs an M5

You need the whole 'show' upfront though to attract the drivers (and associated backers) now.

It would be difficult to convince Mr.Petronas that you were the real deal and worth spending money with if you ran your outfit out of the back of a horsebox....

The sponsors love all the hospitality guff too.

[ivanalesi]

If you have so many cars competing, it's normal to drive M5 or Aston, even with 5% profit, you'll be able to afford it. Same with hospitality units when they're required by the sponsors. What's not normal is what Peat said about technology.
Every other technological industry has the prices of its products falling down, only motorsport has the costs rising!? It's absolutely idiotic situation because the end losers aren't the fans or the drivers, it's the companies since they actually miss on the huge chance to become mass producers and earn truly huge profits. If you want to become rich in any industry, you must mass produce! Bill Gates didn't become super rich by selling Windows to a bunch of rich universities, right?
Take a look at the FR2.0, what has changed since the 2000 model? A simple gear changing mechanism and they introduced carbon bodywork(to save a couple of kilos). And what has happened with the costs? It has risen a lot. Nobody has invested in mass producing the car.
It's the same with F3 and in fact if you want up to GP2. Karting is of course the worst by faaaar. A kart is using the tubing for 3 bicycles yet it costs like 30! Most people use karts for fun, so is there adequate product for them? No. They try to sell them the world championship winning chassis!
Change of mentality is needed to escape from this super small niche market.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by ivanalesi

Karting is of course the worst by faaaar. A kart is using the tubing for 3 bicycles yet it costs like 30! Most people use karts for fun, so is there adequate product for them? No. They try to sell them the world championship winning chassis!
Change of mentality is needed to escape from this super small niche market.

But where karting differs immensely from other racing formulae is the commercial angle. Tony, Birel, CRG/Intrepid et al, race at international level to sell thousands of their chassis each year... They're not cheap, but the hundreds of thousands of club karters around the world are suckered into parting with their hard earned.

[ivanalesi]

I know, but they still make no effort to make them widely affordable and mass produce them.
Actually I wonder if they sell more than say in 1995? Despite the huge financial boom in Asia, I somehow doubt if i.e. Tony Kart has more customers.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by ivanalesi

I know, but they still make no effort to make them widely affordable and mass produce them.
Actually I wonder if they sell more than say in 1995? Despite the huge financial boom in Asia, I somehow doubt if i.e. Tony Kart has more customers.

I think they probably do because they've put so many smaller manufacturers out of business. I'm not sure if you're aware or not that Tony now manufacture their frames using robotic welding kit, if that's not mass produced, I don't know what is... having said that, their prices are anything but mass produced... having steadily increased year on year.

Sorry to everyone else about the digression off topic

[ivanalesi]

It's not off-topic, Dallara are the same.

I didn't know that, I guess they've either huge margins or they've bought tomorrow's NASA spec welding robot It's like their spoilers and bumpers, some China plastic for 70EU...

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by ivanalesi

It's not off-topic, Dallara are the same.

I didn't know that, I guess they've either huge margins or they've bought tomorrow's NASA spec welding robot It's like their spoilers and bumpers, some China plastic for 70EU...

It's funny you know, we were talking earlier about how Britain had a great tradition in motorsport engineering, that has sadly taken a hit with the demise of multi-marque formulae... however, it appears that Italian manufacturers like Tony, Birel, CRG, Dallara, Tatuus etc... have managed to thrive.

[ivanalesi]

Absolutely, only Rotax managed to outsmart them by being first in the spec engines market.
But F3 still offers better cost per km than GP3 and I have serious doubts if GP2 would be any more expensive if it wasn't spec... so long term, spec racing hasn't proven to be so much less expensive.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by ivanalesi

Absolutely, only Rotax managed to outsmart them by being first in the spec engines market.
But F3 still offers better cost per km than GP3 and I have serious doubts if GP2 would be any more expensive if it wasn't spec... so long term, spec racing hasn't proven to be so much less expensive.

It's all about aero, downforce, that's what matters. So if GP2 wasn't a spec formula a team with a massive resource (brought by the driver's backers) would spend treble what they do now to achieve the marginal aero gains necessary for a less skilled driver to win. The arms race would start and it would all end with a lamentable grid because a rival spec series would be launched.

I'm told by those who know that F3 is the closest thing to driving an F1 car in terms of driver technique, relative downforce levels to power and so on. If that is the case I'm sure a market will exist for those who can afford it.

Those who are relatively less well endowed financially will probably spend their money on GP3, since the promotional advantages to a sponsor are far superior to the spectator and tv numbers resulting from a day at Oulton Park or Snetterton.

[chunterer]

I suspect Ghinz' would have a few thoughts on all this too....

[ivanalesi]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

It's all about aero, downforce, that's what matters. So if GP2 wasn't a spec formula a team with a massive resource (brought by the driver's backers) would spend treble what they do now to achieve the marginal aero gains necessary for a less skilled driver to win. The arms race would start and it would all end with a lamentable grid because a rival spec series would be launched.

I'm not too sure about this, it will be like Grubmuller. You have one "impressive" year thanks to a huge budget and despite this nobody rates you. GP2 struggles massively even now, 2 teams left the series in the last year, a third of the grid is hopeless... current budgets are right on the maximum.

[Go_For_Pole]

It's way beyond maximum, I would be surprised if GP2 makes it next year unless costs are drastically cut. The same is true for either BF3 or F3ES, depends on who will get it right in their engines decision.

[Go_For_Pole]

Originally Posted by edenrace

Aero development with the 2012 car is heavily restricted so therefore this cost has been removed. A number of items have had restrictions put on them as far as weight and upgrades so therefore more savings

... and the benefit in budget levels was?

[tristancliffe]

A negative figure. They'd spend MORE money on data analysis, 16 post shaker rigs, simulators to try to get the tiniest advantage.

[Go_For_Pole]

Interesting to see Gerhard Berger quoting a British F3 season at £700,000 (€890,000 at current rate). Guess he is misinformed...

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre...ion_030812.pdf

page 37

[edenrace]

Can be £700,000 but this is the top budget same as £1.000,000 for WSR and £2,000,000 for GP2. What Gerhard is doing is continuing on from the work Barry Bland the previous single seat commisioner started.

[Go_For_Pole]

... ah yes the work of Mr Bland. Wait, what work was that exactly?

Anyway, edenrace every week your WSR budget projection goes up, last week it was 1m EU, this week it's 1m GBP. Two pages back you also had an argument about with CATMAN about BF3 budgets, he said 800k, you said slightly higher than 550k GBP and you asked him to stop spreading false information. Well, sorry but 700k is not slightly higher than 550k so I guess he was more to the point than you. Question is given your background (which I really respect) and your current involvement why you were the one to be far off. My take is that you are trying to make things look better out of passion for the series. I respect that. Yet, I don't expect that this train of thought will solve any problem.

Seriously, this budget level is out of step with reality and it's little wonder GP3 thrives against it. We all know that it's not unheard of to receive offers of 300k for a GP3 season and yes you can win with any given team (yet). Heck, you can even do GP3 plus F3 Euro open plus tons of F3 testing with the budget of BF3. What value for money? Why ever bother? If you don't do something BF3 will die and it will be a sad loss. And as I said the same goes for GP2 proof that I don't have anything particularly against BF3.

[edenrace]

You miss my point, the normal BF3 budget is £550 approx ,however some drivers pay more as they have extra winter testing, flats,road cars etc. If you state that BF3 costs £700 then WSR can cost £1,000 etc etc
Yes it is expensive but sadly motor racing is , savings can be made but not enough for a driver without financial support even £250,000 for a season is an awful lot of money and far out of reach to most people.

[Marcus666]

Formula 2 higher than Auto GP??!!!

I thought Auto GP used former F3000/A1GP cars?

[Flavio Galtieri]

The problem Gerhard Berger has in trying to fix F3 and the "ladder" is that he is starting in the wrong place.

The whole single seater system is in danger of falling over, and you don't make good a building in threat of collapse by fixing it in the middle, you need to start from the bottom and work up, or knock it down and start again.

Gerhard should start with a clean sheet of paper (forget karting as that's irrelevant and outside the FIA remit imho) and focus on how a driver goes from age 16 to F1 if he or she is good enough.

I'm damn sure F3 would be far more secure if the foundations that provide the talent that enters it were more sound. At the moment they are not.

[formerf1champ]

The problem with Gerhard Berger trying to fix anything, is that it's Gerhard Berger doing it.

[Peat]

Quite a lengthy discussion of this on last week's Midweek Motorsport show:

http://audio.rpix.org.uk/mwm/7/mwm7-30.mp3