Daytona Prototype summit meeting

[H16]

Looks like there will be another meeting to discuss the future of the DP class in Grand Am. It will be held on April 1st. While the IMSA board is over the moon discussing exactly what this will mean, I figure it won't be a "Grand Am is dead" but more a "Grand Am needs this or that".

It is certainly debatable wether the DP class or Grand Am in general should survive, but IF they do plan on seeing it through, I would suggest for the DP class:

A smaller greenhouse, at least SOMEWHAT smaller, the headroom available to these cars is abusrd. This is racing, not a family drive with the kids.

Allowing side radiators as the heat tempature for both the driver and the engine are way too high.

Allow other cooling systems such as roof intakes. I couldn't believe when they banned these, how much does an air intake cost?

OK, so I doubt this is on their to-do list. I really expect them to simply lower the speed of GTS and GT cars. I believe that, from Roger E's Q&A session, they don't want to tamper with the DP class. Of course, he also said that GTS cars wouldn't be restricted further, then added 50 lbs before Homestead.

R&S and Crawford and scheduled to attend, I guess they will be asking where there customers are.

Amazing, in America we have one sports car series with a full schedule of races that don't get cancelled but no cars with any interest (at the moment), and the other has the best cars and some of the best drivers out there, but constantly cancels them.

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by H16
A smaller greenhouse, at least SOMEWHAT smaller, the headroom available to these cars is abusrd. This is racing, not a family drive with the kids.

You remember the FIA suitcase? They have the Grand Am sheet of plywood.

OK, so I doubt this is on their to-do list. I really expect them to simply lower the speed of GTS and GT cars. I believe that, from Roger E's Q&A session, they don't want to tamper with the DP class. Of course, he also said that GTS cars wouldn't be restricted further, then added 50 lbs before Homestead.

And, since it's rumoured that the head of Grand Am was trying to buy some GT teams in the paddock of Sebring, you've got to wonder whether they'll be able to add any restrictions to GT. I'd think that the teams would mightily resist being restricted, unless the price was right.

[Tim Northcutt]

The usual R&S customers seem to be running other chassis in ALMS, or in other forms of road racing (wiht the exception of Robinson Racing, and I haven't heard word one about what they're doing, if anything)...

That could be the same case for Crawford....

Overall, maybe the competitive racing world isn't thrilled with the DP concept, or with the direction that Grand Am is going at this time and would rather race elsewhere...

It is an interesting issue....this summit really won't change what thye are doing, so it is probably a meeting to figure out how to market these cars to race teams so that they can get buyers and racers in the series....

[gttouring]

they'll probably ty a 'winning tactic' like the no where successful TRAC oval series. make a DSP represent a team, like a region or city to generate interest and then after they waste money on a no where nothing series, they will revamp and start again witha 10 car daytona field..GA is an embarassment to racing, ALMS and the SpeedTouring car and GT are real and good racing, GA should stop wasting money and support the ALMS to solidify racing in the US. Rednecks...

[Tim Northcutt]

TRAC was a "miss the boat" idea, wasn't it??

But I will say that the prototypes that were created for it had some really nice-looking lines to them...especially the one with the front end that resembles the Ferrari "Enzo"....

[Chevyguy]

Robinson Racing is doing exactly nothing. They got done wrong in the switch over attempt. I think Mr. Robinson is kickin' back and watching, this the strange year of American road racing. I'll bet they come back with a GT car or something.

This summit is symbolic, as it means they're saying, "hey, we need to talk this over." It'll probably be more of a cheerleader speech, encouraging them to stick around.

As for R&S and Crawford, why would they have customers? As far as I've heard, they don't even have a car.

[Liz]

I talked to a young driver at Sebring who had driven one of the DPT cars and was driving an LMP 900 last weekend. He gave me a diplomatic response to my request for a comparison of the two, and confided off the record that the DP cars were **** on a cracker.

[Tim Northcutt]

R&S has chosen not to build a car unless a customer orders one...and none of their usual customers had an interest in running a DP in any kind of race...

[MaxSport]

Actually, there was a potential DSP customer in town this week. Wants to put a Ford engine in it.

BR hasn't sold any more MKIIIC's to customers interested in the ALMS either.

KM

[paul-collins]

A "potential" customer for the chassis that is "the future of road racing in North America." That's great news. Is Ford providing any support, since they've already branded one DP a Focus?

It is too bad that Bill hasn't sold more of his latest LMP spec chassis, although I'm sure they'll have their 2004-spec version designed soon. Perhaps that's what the privateers interested in the ALMS are waiting for.

[Tim Northcutt]

To MaxSport:

How does that affect the agreement they announced with Toyota last Fall?

One way or the other, I hope they get something going in both Grand Am and with whatever they design for 2004...I've been a fan of the R&S operation for years now and follow what they are doing...

A very sharp crew with a lot of enginerring know-how...

[Garrett]

One thing to say. ALMS is the BEST form of racing in America!!!!!!!!

[MaxSport]

R&S can sell a chassis to this guy and he can put any engine in it, no matter what deal BR has with Toyota. This new team does seem to be a Ford supported effort for '04.

Some may think the ALMS is so good, but then they don't have to pay for it. As long as the TV numbers are so bad and the cost so high I can't see how there will be more than 5 LMP 900 cars at most races this year. Will that be fun to watch?

The LMP 675s don't seem likely to win overall, unless the handful of LMP 900 cars drop out. These 675 cars may be able to continue running in LMP-1 in'04 but will Dyson and Field be happy if they have no real chance at victory?

Because of the high costs I don't see BR selling any LMP cars. A new DP will run you about 1m for the year. A good R&S LMP effort is 4m-including the LM 24. You still won't beat the Audi/VAG teams and good luck finding sponsorship that will even cover a quarter of the costs.

Maybe Sebring and PLM should join in the ACOs LM Tournament and Panoz should just shut the rest of it down due to lack of interest.

BEST form of racing?- it is a display of corporate wealth by Audi and GM. These companies can then tell car enthusiasts who don't know much about sportscar racing that their cars won Sebring and LeMans and the ALMS title. Wow, who did they beat?

I think R&S will sell a couple or three DPs. G/A may not be what you want to see but mere millionaires can afford to do it and can win races there.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by MaxSport
Some may think the ALMS is so good, but then they don't have to pay for it. As long as the TV numbers are so bad and the cost so high I can't see how there will be more than 5 LMP 900 cars at most races this year. Will that be fun to watch?

And how many people watch the tape-delayed Grand Am races on Speed Channel? Now subtract team members and their families (that'll cut the number by at least half!).

The LMP 675s don't seem likely to win overall, unless the handful of LMP 900 cars drop out. These 675 cars may be able to continue running in LMP-1 in'04 but will Dyson and Field be happy if they have no real chance at victory?

Clearly you weren't watching Petit LeMans last year! It's reliability the MGs lack, not pace!

Because of the high costs I don't see BR selling any LMP cars. A new DP will run you about 1m for the year. A good R&S LMP effort is 4m-including the LM 24. You still won't beat the Audi/VAG teams and good luck finding sponsorship that will even cover a quarter of the costs.

What's worse? Losing and still getting exposure, or winning and not being noticed, except for a handful of people who are disgusted that you won because the competition was saddled with weight penalties to make up for the 400hp lump in the back of your car (which isn't legal for any internationally-recognized race except Daytona)?

I think R&S will sell a couple or three DPs. G/A may not be what you want to see but mere millionaires can afford to do it and can win races there.

We'll see what happens when the new prototypes start coming out... Something tells me that R&S, Lola and a few other firms will be putting out some machines that will give privateers a very good chance.

What's missing right now is a really strong privateer engine for LMP900s. The various Ford V8s were out of date 40 years ago, it's amazing they're still as competitive as they are. The Judd V-10 is not a match in power or reliability for the best factory engines.

It'd take a relatively small investment for BMW to develop a very powerful and reliable LeMans-spec V12 crate engine that'd be perfectly at home in the back of an R&S. That could be quite a package!

[Chevyguy]

You let him have it, Lee. Max Sport, that attitude is not going to help the cause of sportscar racing at all. ALMS IS the best because it has the coolest machinary and some of the best drivers in the world. Getting the audience requires attempting to pry the NASCAR and open-wheel faithfuls to check out an ALMS field from time to time. A fight I am most admittedly losing. Still, I describe the ALMS as the coolest racing out there, not as a "who cares" type of series.

Thank you.

[Fish_Flake]

And at least the ALMS is trying. They race at legitimate road racing circuits, mixed in with a couple of street events, pursues an avid fanbase, encourages factory support, and buys live network airtime in hopes of reaching a fanbase. Grand-Am races half of its schedule at infield road courses at ISC ovals which appear to be closed to the public on race days. The crowds seem to avoid the natural road courses, too. And TV? All of it Speed Channel, all but two tape-delayed a week. Who looks to be trying harder to find an audience? The Daytona Prototypes are ugly, too.

[H16]

I would agree that the roval setup is going nowhere. The crowd at Homestead was terrible, and a series that races three times a year at any track can't be taken profesionally.

They could have had something moderately warm with a car that at least looked like a GTP or something like, but they messed that up too with the mandated roofs with such big greenhouses.

That doesn't mean that ALMS is out of the woods. The attitude of "yea we may be bad but were not as bad as Grand Am" isn't going to cut it. Stop cancelling races and you might put G/A out for good.

Everyone keeps talking about how cheap the DPs are to buy and maintain, but it doesn't matter if it has no fan base or interest to the teams. The cars are bulky and ugly to the average fan, and the average accomplished driver sees little motivation in battling with GT machines.

[Try Hard]

just thought i'd add this in, i mucked around on PSP for about 15 mins, reduced the green house by 15%, an improvement just, still a bit bulky looking though, maybe potential is their for Dp's, just add another 100bhp or so...
Rejig

Original

regards
Ed

[Lee Janotta]

The slab sides at too high, and the track is too narrow. The core of the problem's at the footbox, though, it's too damn high, higher than some road cars!

[H16]

It looks a little better but the car still looks too big. Having said that, the DP2 was always one of the better looking of the bizzare bunch. My least worst or perhaps "favorite" (in a wierd sort of way) is the Fabcar. The worst has to be the Doran, or maybe the Focus, I don't know.

If handled correctly, I think the project could have been somewhat attractive. A reasonably quick car without the extreme clampdowns on technology. NASCAR with wings. This doesn't interest a lot of sports car teams, apparently. As it stands, these cars are way too large, way too slow, and run on tracks way too boring.

I have no clue as to what the deal is with R&S and Toyota. R&S says the car can accept multiple powerplants, Toyota says its a Celica. Will we see a Ford/Toyota?

[paul-collins]

I've never seen a picture of a DP from that angle... Cripes! Look at all the head room! When my Neon was in the shop, I had a rental Cavalier that had less head room than that (I kept knocking my hat off getting in and out).

Compare that to any of the GT40s that had to have a bump put in the roof for drivers like Dan Gurney...

[MaxSport]

"You let him have it, Lee. Max Sport, that attitude is not going to help the cause of sportscar racing at all."

Let me have what? Reality and what one hopes for are two different things.

Positive attitude is the answer then?

Comparing G/A and the ALMS is like arguing over which is worse-the Detroit Lions or the Bengals?

Check the Daytona 24 Hours vs Sebring TV numbers. They were both bad. At least it won't cost 3 or 4 million to run in the G/A and you have a realistic chance to win.

Weaver comment after Sebring said it all. "12 guys taking on the might of VAG". Who will bet me that Dyson will be seen in G/A again?

[H16]

I think the point is that while both series are struggling, the backbone of sports car racing is the private entrants, and at least so far, very few have shown any interest in the DP and some of the GT teams have left as well. I don't think it was the DP in and of itself (though it was a major problem), it was the "Suprise! Your equipement is illegal in a year" announcement, the dumbing down of racing, hard headed management, or things like that that have put the G/A with very few fans or teams. Had Grand Am consulted more with it's existing teams and tried to put off for a year more and/or grandfather the current cars in somewhat better, then perhaps they would have more entries now.

It seems like the private entries have made their minds up, at least for now, regardless of the fan base. American Spirit Racing could have bought a R&S DP for very little, but have decided that Dyson's old MKIIIC is the way for them. This form of racing is what people like that enjoy, and they are, at least now, willing to spend more for a slightly larger fan base and more exciting and flashy cars.

The 675 call by Dyson was controversial, and to be honest, somewhat misguided. The cars are not as quick and no where nearly as reliable as the 900 class but cost quite a bit. Certainly a MKIIIC might have been more advised, but that was his choice. Anyone who runs a MKIIIA, IIIC, Crawford, and an MG Lola within the span of a year or so doesn't have any kind of staying power with anyone or any series. So I am not sure if Dyson is a good example for or against any series. He doesn't want to go to Le Mans, but he will next year. Dyson might be joining Robinson next year, he might go do something else, who knows what Rob Dyson is going to be doing.

[IanGrohse]

Originally posted by H16
I think the point is that while both series are struggling, the backbone of sports car racing is the private entrants, and at least so far, very few have shown any interest in the DP and some of the GT teams have left as well. I don't think it was the DP in and of itself (though it was a major problem), it was the "Suprise! Your equipement is illegal in a year" announcement, the dumbing down of racing, hard headed management, or things like that that have put the G/A with very few fans or teams. Had Grand Am consulted more with it's existing teams and tried to put off for a year more and/or grandfather the current cars in somewhat better, then perhaps they would have more entries now.

It seems like the private entries have made their minds up, at least for now, regardless of the fan base. American Spirit Racing could have bought a R&S DP for very little, but have decided that Dyson's old MKIIIC is the way for them. This form of racing is what people like that enjoy, and they are, at least now, willing to spend more for a slightly larger fan base and more exciting and flashy cars.

The 675 call by Dyson was controversial, and to be honest, somewhat misguided. The cars are not as quick and no where nearly as reliable as the 900 class but cost quite a bit. Certainly a MKIIIC might have been more advised, but that was his choice. Anyone who runs a MKIIIA, IIIC, Crawford, and an MG Lola within the span of a year or so doesn't have any kind of staying power with anyone or any series. So I am not sure if Dyson is a good example for or against any series. He doesn't want to go to Le Mans, but he will next year. Dyson might be joining Robinson next year, he might go do something else, who knows what Rob Dyson is going to be doing.

675 cars not as fast????? What races have you been watching? The 675s arent quite as consistantly fast as the Audi R8, but other than that, your statement is totally false. The top 675 cars are certainly as fast as the top 900 cars. Reliable? Heck no, because its an MG(and an assortment of other questionable brands), their execution of reliability has not been there. I garuntee you if Toyota or someone was to make a 675 car, not only would it be as fast as the MGs, and reliable as the Audis.

[ZXKawboy]

Grand Am is dying, slowly. Up until this cock-eyed DP project came about, I used to think that sports car racing was alive and well in America, and *thriving, at that..

Sadly, that is no longer the case. ALMS is trying, and it's a fantastic series to watch, but the sad truth is that "if it ain't NASCAR, it ain't nuthin' "... a direct quote from an "avid race fan".

With this kind of atitude towards North American racing, I see the sport being in some trouble before too terribly long.

Many of the reasons cited, when I asked around, were very reasonable.. Namely, the same cars winning over and and over; not enough events per year to *really* get the spectator interested (and I agree...one event per month would be nice...not 4-6 per year); and the lack of "little guy" teams...aka privateer teams in classes *other* than GT or GTS.

Grand Am is looked upon in an even *worse* light. "Sports Cars" that are legal in exactly *one* series? With no hope of competing anywhere else? And if they're the "top class", why are they so easily beaten by a GT car (ie, Porsche 911 at the Daytona 24?) Why do the AGT cars out-qualify them? Why are they so *slow*?

Some answers present themselves, if you take the time to think about it.

ALMS and Grand-Am getting it together for a joint venture..a jointly run series, for example. It would cover a larger number of venues, leading to perhaps more races per season. (Always a good thing, if you ask me) More teams could get involved (presumably) as well as perhaps better innovation. Granted, the DP's would have to be either scrapped, or completely revamped, but it would be worth it, I think.

With a greater fan-base, more venues, more teams, and (due to the greater number of teams) better affordability for the teams


This is all probably a pipe dream, but it's a nice pipe dream to have.

Have a good one, all....