[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[Asa]

Originally Posted by Purist

I'm fine with a round in China to see if a base can be formed, and Zhuhai is probably my first choice among the permanent circuits in that country. Part of me though, would like to see them try Macau, and after all, GT3s have proven capable of running there, so who knows. Yeah, I know, it won't happen. Still, that's the most established motor racing event in that part of the world by a decent stretch.

Purist, the FIA has a grading system for tracks. All sportscar races must run at Grade 2 or above tracks and Macau is only grade 4. Also the Macau GT Cup race is not a strict GT3 race as some people think it is. Almost anything can race in it as long as they can get an entry.

In China, only Shanghai F1 is Grade 1, Zhuhai, Ordos and Chengdu are Grade 2.

[Asa]

Originally Posted by AGD

GT8 - The OchoAs for Bahrain, they aren't racing there because they think it is a good market. They aren't racing there because manufacturers asked to race there. They're racing there because they are being paid to race there. That brings up a whole set of new questions about corruption.

But F1 races are "sold" to the highest bidders by Bernie, too. I don't hear people accusing F1 of being corrupt in this respect. I even read some recent reports about Turkey and Korea not being able to finance their F1 races anymore.

The WEC is ACO and FIA's product, Bahrain wants to buy it at $X, PLM cannot afford the same price (apparently), ACO sold it to Bahrain. End of story.

I am not saying Bahrain is good or bad, PLM is good or bad or ACO/FIA is good or bad. But I cannot associate the act of selling a race to the highest bidder as corruption.

I myself would go off to a new job if someone offered me a higher salary, am I corrupt?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Asa

But F1 races are "sold" to the highest bidders by Bernie, too. I don't hear people accusing F1 of being corrupt in this respect. I even read some recent reports about Turkey and Korea not being able to finance their F1 races anymore.

The WEC is ACO and FIA's product, Bahrain wants to buy it at $X, PLM cannot afford the same price (apparently), ACO sold it to Bahrain. End of story.

I am not saying Bahrain is good or bad, PLM is good or bad or ACO/FIA is good or bad. But I cannot associate the act of selling a race to the highest bidder as corruption.

I myself would go off to a new job if someone offered me a higher salary, am I corrupt?

Money does not always go from A to B without some grease. This is just one example, there could be several ways that this works. Say the ACO/FIA wants some country or other governmental agency to pay a hefty sanctioning fee. Well, that may take getting the approval of a lot of people and the economics of such deals usually don't make sense. So what do you do? You bribe some panel members so that they dig into the public coffers and cough up larger amounts of money. It could be much less direct than that. Say there is an independent race organizer that wants to race at a circuit but they need the money to pay for sanctioning or whatever. Maybe you pay off the honchos of some companies personally so that they'll use the company money improperly to sponsor the event.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Purist

And there is one, final, key obstacle to consider. As a society/country becomes more "developed", working with one's hands, as one would do as a gearhead, becomes less and less desirable. Just look at how manual labor is rewarded, and how that has changed over the years, here in the US and in other "advanced" nations.

My dad is an accomplished aerospace engineer. During college, he worked as a sports car and racing car mechanic at a local shop. As a student back then, in the '70s, he gave some presentations to engineering and business types. We joke about it now, but he may well have been turned down for some opportunities because, "he had a little grease under his fingernails".

My point is, the way you here plenty of people talk now, working with your hands is looked down upon in the "developed" world. Too many people don't have even the slightest clue how arduous real, manual labor is (like digging a ditch), and then they go on to consider it beneath them to do such work.

This made me think of something during my travels to India. The people who had nice cars there did not drive them themselves. They had chauffeurs. I don't know if things are still like that there or if things are like that elsewhere in the developing world, but it would not shock me if that is true with the abundance of cheap labor. Obviously someone with a Ferrari or Bugatti would probably drive it themselves and a regular old someone buying a basic car would drive it themselves, but what about the businessmen with Audis and BMWs? I would think that a chauffeur society may be less likely to be a gearhead society. Maybe not.

Then, of course, there are the Saudis and perhaps other countries where women are not allowed to drive. Granted, there may not be a lot of women in the gearhead community, but car marketing may be more limited to those people. If there is any good news, I think Bahrain is more "progressive" toward driving rights than their Saudi neighbors. At least I think that is true based off memory.

[Purist]

Asa, I'm well aware of the FIA's track grading system. If I'm not mistaken though, FIA WTCC requires a Grade 3 circuit, so Macau can't be licensed as Grade 4 if that's the case.

Also, you don't apparently follow the F1 section that closely, as there is PLENTY of complaining and accusing that goes on with respect to Bernie and his dealings with various regimes.

And I might call your actions corrupt if said better-paying job wasn't something you were any good at or anything that you cared about as far as the work itself.

[Asa]

Originally Posted by AGD

Money does not always go from A to B without some grease. This is just one example, there could be several ways that this works. Say the ACO/FIA wants some country or other governmental agency to pay a hefty sanctioning fee. Well, that may take getting the approval of a lot of people and the economics of such deals usually don't make sense. So what do you do? You bribe some panel members so that they dig into the public coffers and cough up larger amounts of money. It could be much less direct than that. Say there is an independent race organizer that wants to race at a circuit but they need the money to pay for sanctioning or whatever. Maybe you pay off the honchos of some companies personally so that they'll use the company money improperly to sponsor the event.

If that's the case then every single sporting event in the world that gets a sponsor is suspect, isn't it?

I just hope that ACO will do the right thing by sharing at least 50% of the money it gets from Bahrain with the teams, especially the privateers.

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by Purist

Mexico isn't on the slate yet, and it concerns me more than the South American countries. Whereas places like Brazil and Argentina are a terminus for elicit goods and services, Mexico is in the middle. It is the crossroads for the drugs, guns, and money of the contraband trade. It sits next to their biggest customer (unfortunately, one thing I don't like about my country), and just about all the product involved has to go through some part of Mexico, whether it is taken to/from the States by land, air, or water. With the immigrants concentrated at their borders, the cartels also have a ready supply of forced labor.

I don't know what any of what you just said has to do with a possible WEC race, WRC races in Mexico without much trouble and I've lived in Mexico City for a couple of years now, which would be the obvious location for a WEC race and while it's hardly the safest place in the world it's nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be, most of the drugs and cartel related violence is concentrated on the borders and northern states.
Peugeot, GM, Nissan, Honda and Toyota are pretty big all over Mexico and at least in Mexico City, Audi and BMW have a big presence.
A race down here would probably get good attendance as long as it included Adrian Fernandez and was marketed right.
Now, the Hermanos Rodriguez track I don't know if it's fit for LMPs in it's current state but the old WSC raced there in the past and there's been talks in local newspapers about modernizing the track in order to get F1 back to Mexico so I guess a WEC race is possible but not for a couple of years atleast.

[Asa]

Originally Posted by Purist

Asa, I'm well aware of the FIA's track grading system. If I'm not mistaken though, FIA WTCC requires a Grade 3 circuit, so Macau can't be licensed as Grade 4 if that's the case.

Also, you don't apparently follow the F1 section that closely, as there is PLENTY of complaining and accusing that goes on with respect to Bernie and his dealings with various regimes.

And I might call your actions corrupt if said better-paying job wasn't something you were any good at or anything that you cared about as far as the work itself.

WTCC requires only grade 4. They are in the 2,000cc touring cars category.

I honestly don't really care where Bernie takes F1 to. For that matter, I don't really think anyone here care if the WEC goes to Bahrain or not, if not for the matter that the date clashes with PLM.

How could you even tell if I was good at my new job if I hadn't even started at it? I might need months or a year to learn the job. People get sacked everyday for doing their jobs badly or wrongly, so these are all corrupt cases?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Asa

If that's the case then every single sporting event in the world that gets a sponsor is suspect, isn't it?

Yes. I would hope there are people within the businesses and governments investigating the legitimacy of each deal. However, if a beer company sponsors a football team, it might actually make sense from a profitability standpoint. Sometimes deals are real headscratchers though. As we see in the US, the SEC is looking into baseball business deals and the SFO may look into Bernie's dealings.

I just hope that ACO will do the right thing by sharing at least 50% of the money it gets from Bahrain with the teams, especially the privateers.

They may get free travel. That's probably their compensation. Who knows if the ACO is even getting these moneybags. There's moneybags involved, but that does not mean they are going straight to the ACO.

Originally Posted by DistortedSmile

I don't know what any of what you just said has to do with a possible WEC race, WRC races in Mexico without much trouble and I've lived in Mexico City for a couple of years now, which would be the obvious location for a WEC race and while it's hardly the safest place in the world it's nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be, most of the drugs and cartel related violence is concentrated on the borders and northern states.
Peugeot, GM, Nissan, Honda and Toyota are pretty big all over Mexico and at least in Mexico City, Audi and BMW have a big presence.
A race down here would probably get good attendance as long as it included Adrian Fernandez and was marketed right.
Now, the Hermanos Rodriguez track I don't know if it's fit for LMPs in it's current state but the old WSC raced there in the past and there's been talks in local newspapers about modernizing the track in order to get F1 back to Mexico so I guess a WEC race is possible but not for a couple of years atleast.

I actually said exactly what you said a few days ago about Mexico City. I still see it as a viable market. It also looks like there could be some significant Mexican money involved towards getting F1 back there.

Originally Posted by Asa

For that matter, I don't really think anyone here care if the WEC goes to Bahrain or not, if not for the matter that the date clashes with PLM.

I disagree with you there. The Bahrain FIA rumor came up a few months ago and then faded away. It wasn't popular then and certainly the racing community had feelings about F1 going there earlier this year. It wasn't a sports car issue at the time so it wasn't discussed here specifically, but the arguments stay the same. Having said that, the date clash means a lot and so, yes, that specifically has caused a ****storm to say the least. It's not the only thing though.

[Purist]

No, and I used the word "might".

I have no problem acknowledging that some jobs take time to learn. That's fine by me. I was meaning the part about just taking the job for the better pay. You may have a good record and theoretical qualifications, but you may not be suited to some jobs based on your personality, specialization, or other factors.

Some of these things would make it evident that you were a bad choice for a position before you'd even started. For one, if you're too detail-oriented, managing a larger group is probably a bad idea, because you will have too much of a tendency to get bogged down by little things. So, you end up not really doing your job of managing, and trying to do the work of your subordinates for them as well.

There is also a phenomenon that has led to a lot of problems in business. It is the "promotion to level of greatest incompetence" phenomenon. Basically, you get promoted initially by your good performance at a lower level, but then promotions continue, for whatever reason, with little if any regard for your ability in these higher positions. Much of the time, this is simply due to higher-level management not having a clue about most of their personnel, and thus making dumb decisions. If this happens because a person is cozy with management though, then, it graduates from mere negligence to outright corruption.

FIA-specific classes take higher track-grade certification than other categories. FIA GT1, GT2, and GT3 are rated as needing a higher level of certification than ACO GT1, GT2, and GT3. So, don't assume just because it fits in one general category that that's the whole story. Heck, FIA GT1 and GT2 at least were listed as needing a higher track-grade certification than ACO LMP1 and LMP2.

I do care where F1 races in that there are places I definitely want to see them race, and I don't want to lose those events. Also, I'm not big on Tilke-designed circuits in general, which means I'm not a massive fan of most of the new/revised circuits of the past 12 years or so.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by DistortedSmile

... and there's been talks in local newspapers about modernizing the track in order to get F1 back to Mexico so I guess a WEC race is possible but not for a couple of years atleast.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96601

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96601

Yeah, just saw that in AGD's reply, interesting.

[Simmi]

Looks like the date of Bahrain has been moved afterall. Now clashes with Abu Dhabi.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Looks like the date of Bahrain has been moved afterall. Now clashes with Abu Dhabi.

Are you suggesting that someone realized the original calendar was a mistake? If so, maybe there is a racing god.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Looks like the date of Bahrain has been moved afterall. Now clashes with Abu Dhabi.

Not exactly... there's been a bit of a reversal around there, Bahrain doesn't clash with GPs but may clash with the TBA (September-ish) round of the ALMS. However, Fuji is now one week ahead of Petit; there is no clash, but doing PLM alongside a WEC campaign would still be a nightmare of logistics unless you bring two fully separate team to the USA and Japan.

EDIT: Last three WEC races for 2012 now:

29/09 BHR 6 Hours of Bahrain Sakhir
14/10 JPN 6 Hours of Fuji Mount‐Fuji
TBA (Nov) CHN 6 Hours of TBA TBA*

[AGD]

The 2012 calendar is confirmed as follows:17/03 USA 12 Hours of Sebring Sebring*
05/05 BEL 6 Heures de Spa‐Francorchamps Spa‐Francorchamps*
16-17/06 FRA 24 Heures du Mans Le Mans
25/08 GBR 6 Hours of Silverstone Silverstone*
15/09 BRA 6 Hours of Sao Paulo Interlagos
29/09 BHR 6 Hours of Bahrain Sakhir
14/10 JPN 6 Hours of Fuji Mount‐Fuji
TBA (Nov) CHN 6 Hours of TBA TBA*

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre...sc-071211.aspx

Oddly enough, making Petit right after Fuji might make it more difficult for Toyota to come to Petit if they wanted to under the previous calendar. Still, I think it is an improvement. I'd have to look at it further.

EDIT: Any chance that China will conflict with Petit?

[Simmi]

I honestly think it was always unlikely that the big teams would do both. But what this does allow is for drivers to make the trips for both, as well as both receiving the coverage they deserve.

Hopefully this can put an end to a lot of the repeated whinging now. But it does make a mockery of the initial excuse that there could only be one date at Bahrain.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by AGD

EDIT: Any chance that China will conflict with Petit?

I'd hope not. China is earmarked for November anyway on that calendar.

EDIT: Some interesting details... for Le Mans only, if manufacturers enter 3 cars, all three are allowed to score points, for all the other rounds only the top two score. Also other one-off entries are allowed "if they bring interest to the championship" and conform to the tech regulations, they'll be classified in the races, but they cannot score points.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Simmi

I honestly think it was always unlikely that the big teams would do both. But what this does allow is for drivers to make the trips for both, as well as both receiving the coverage they deserve.

It was always going to be difficult, but at least it opens the door to the possibility. I believe AMR sent their Lola from Silverstone to Laguna within a week so I guess it's possible if a team wants to try it. In the case of Toyota, they may have a long break between the early summer rounds they want to race at and Fuji so maybe they could prepare for consecutive weeks if that is what they want to do. Of course, I don't know how this meshes with the DTM and WEC schedules for Audi and Peugeot.

Hopefully this can put an end to a lot of the repeated whinging now. But it does make a mockery of the initial excuse that there could only be one date at Bahrain.

Look, this whole Bahrain/Petit thing is common sense. The stupidity of it deserved the complaining. I don't know why the WEC was pompous enough to release the original schedule the way it was, but maybe they have humility if they fixed it. I don't know. We'll see. There are still issues (racing in Bahrain in the first place and the future of Sebring, etc.), but maybe there is some hope for commonsense solutions. We'll see. I don't know why changes were made. I won't flatter myself by saying that the fans complaining paid off, but who knows.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by AGD

It was always going to be difficult, but at least it opens the door to the possibility. I believe AMR sent their Lola from Silverstone to Laguna within a week so I guess it's possible if a team wants to try it. In the case of Toyota, they may have a long break between the early summer rounds they want to race at and Fuji so maybe they could prepare for consecutive weeks if that is what they want to do. Of course, I don't know how this meshes with the DTM and WEC schedules for Audi and Peugeot.

Still 4 DTM/WEC clashes, Spa/Lausitz, LM test day/Red Bull Ring, Silverstone/Zandvoort and Interlagos/Oschersleben (plus Petit Le Mans/Hockenheim).

Another snippet of information from the FIA release, the official entry list for the WEC will be announced on Feb 2 2012. I suspect the Le Mans entry list and reserves will be announced on the same day.

[Simmi]

Copy and paste job from FIA:

The date for the opening of entries is confirmed as 19 December and the closing date for competitors contesting the entire Championship will be 18 January 2012. The Endurance Selection Committee - comprised equally by members of the FIA and ACO - will meet on the 25 January and the final entry list for the 2012 FIA World Endurance Championship will be published on 2 February.

Exceptionally, additional cars may be admitted for one or more events subject to their conformity with the applicable technical and homologation regulations, and also the interest they will bring to the Championship. These cars will appear in the event classification but will be invisible for the different classifications for the Championship.

For the Le Mans 24 Hours event only, the manufacturers entered in the FIA World Endurance Championship for LMP1 Manufacturers may, subject to agreement of the Selection Committee, enter a third car, which will be eligible to score points in the Championship. Only the top two classified cars of a manufacturer will be entitled to score points in the Championship however.

[joeb]

It is nice to see the rules changed to allow 3rd cars, no more hiding a car with a slightly different team name. I also like the scoring of the 3rd car for Le Mans.

[fieldodreams79]

Regarding the schedule, which I haven't been paying much attention to, it seems to me that they may have just killed PLM....

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Regarding the schedule, which I haven't been paying much attention to, it seems to me that they may have just killed PLM....

Reading the 80+ pages of goodness in this thread should set you straight.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Reading the 80+ pages of goodness in this thread should set you straight.

Is there a cliff notes version available?