[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[gregtummer]

If WEC doesn't end up running at Road Atlanta next year, will the ACO/FIA continue to let ALMS use the "Petit Le Mans" label and will it be a 1000mile/10 hour race?

If the Petit Le Mans label is pulled, then you know things are probably really bad between the WEC and ALMS.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

In the grand scheme of things the ALMS is minor league, and will be until domestic manufactuers give it the same attention they do NASCAR, the DTM and Aussie V8's are their nations stock car equivalents.

And what does that make the WEC?

The ALMS may be Busch league, but at least it isn't bush league like the ACO series. Well, except for when the DeltaWang is in ALMS events. Then the ALMS is bush league too. "Look at that wheeled dildo plowing into the bush!"

There are two all-pro classes in the ALMS/WEC. One the WEC does well and one the ALMS does well. If a team or two leaves, both may have zero all-pro classes that are done well.

The above have little profile outside their local market,

Wait, are we talking about the ALMS or WEC here?

series like the WRC are global products,

Did you read that in a Prodrive press release?

Sportscars is the one discipline that crosses over into this market, but looking from a World Championships perspective it only necessitates one or two races, with Daytona and Montreal ranking above most ALMS venues given the choice, that shouldn't come as a suprise, they'd be priced assets if the ALMS could get in on them.

Very few people in the US care one iota about Montreal and nobody cares about the Daytona road course. The Daytona 24 is a big event here, but the track is a joke. Any idea that the WEC hooking up with NASCAR would be classic ACO short-sighted thinking in action. All NASCAR wants to do is play friendly with the ACO long enough to choke the ALMS. One that is done, NASCAR will decide they won't want to be friends with the ACO anymore. Then what? I hope there are hundreds of thousands of fans in Bahrain to make up for all the ones in North America who will give the World French championship the finger.

To sum up, the ALMS wants to be a World Championship located in NA,

Huh? The ALMS wants to be the ALMS - the American partners of the ACO. Apparently, the ACO has other ideas even if the paperwork says otherwise.

manufactuers and teams want a World Championship to be just that.

Manufacturers and teams want a lot of things and it seems like none of them want the same things. And the things they want keep changing. Peugeot may think something is super, BMW may think that same thing is stupid. Good luck to the ACO in their quest to be the superior ego in a room filled with money-backed egos.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

In the grand scheme of things the ALMS is minor league, and will be until domestic manufactuers give it the same attention they do NASCAR, the DTM and Aussie V8's are their nations stock car equivalents.

What utter nonsense.

The problem with the ALMS is management, until that changes...

The above have little profile outside their local market, series like F1 and the WRC are global products, NA is the only region they struggle to break, but it's a unique market, with unique road cars, and unique motor racing.

Sportscars is the one discipline that crosses over into this market, but looking from a World Championships perspective it only necessitates one or two races, with Daytona and Montreal ranking above most ALMS venues given the choice, that shouldn't come as a suprise, they'd be priced assets if the ALMS could get in on them.

Look, outside of Le Mans itself, the WEC will be a completely invisible series in North America, except to a very small number of anoraks.

To sum up, the ALMS wants to be a World Championship located in NA, manufactuers and teams want a World Championship to be just that.

More nonsense.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

More nonsense.

No, just the truth. I can't believe we´re really discussing whether sports car racing needs a world championship - Of course it does.

A world championship is needed for better media exposure and to push the sport as a whole. For much of the last 50 years there had been a world championship of some sort so I don't really see while people argue if it's needed.

Just look at the effect the WEC has even before the first race has been run. Countless manufacturers show up all of a sudden, you think that's a coincidence?

I'm sorry but I think the ALMS fans are in dire need of a reality check. Sports car racing doesn't revolve around the ALMS anymore, it used to when there was no proper series in Europe...it was a crutch for the manufacturers to compete somewhere outside of Le Mans and it wasn't as badly managed as the FIA sports car series of that time.

The ALMS has served its cause and it did so well but now there's a proper series for manufacturers in place and the ALMS goes back to what it is supposed to be - A national series just like the ELMS.

Again, I can't believe we're even arguing about this. It is obvious that the WEC is the best thing that happened to sports car racing in the past 20 years. Never has the outlook for our favorite sport been so extremely positive, a shame some people can't enjoy it just because it takes away some of their local privileges (and I say that as a German who doesn't have a WEC round either!).

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Again, I can't believe we're even arguing about this. It is obvious that the WEC is the best thing that happened to sports car racing in the past 20 years. Never has the outlook for our favorite sport been so extremely positive, a shame some people can't enjoy it just because it takes away some of their local privileges (and I say that as a German who doesn't have a WEC round either!).

That is the real nonsense... having to explain the obvious!

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

That is the real nonsense... having to explain the obvious!

So the outlook for sports car racing isn't positive? With three major manufacturers competing in P1 in 2012, another confirmed for 2014 and several others close to announcing a program.

Really? When was the last time that happened? Surely not in the last 20 years...

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Acid09

So the outlook for sports car racing isn't positive? With three major manufacturers competing in P1 in 2012, another confirmed for 2014 and several others close to announcing a program.

Really? When was the last time that happened? Surely not in the last 20 years...

Acid... you got me wrong!
What you have said (and JAG) IS the obvious! Its a nonsense having to explain why a World Championship is the best thing that happened in the last 20 years. I'm saw the old Group C glory days. I became in love with Le Mans and endurance racing in the 80's, and the for me the WEC is just what i've been dreaming about im 20 years of dark ages: a global endurance series.

And Global is the keyword here: a word despised by many in the other side of the atlantic.

[Acid09]

Ah sorry, misunderstanding then, my bad

[trahsub]

It's unfortunate when it (a world championship) becomes a commodity though and the venues selected are 'for the camels', not the fans. Or in street vernacular, one may call some of these locations are sell outs to the highest bidder. Weak.

Next up, a 1000KM long straightaway (with necessary chicanes for track approval) in the middle of no where, because some dudes with money wanted a race.

Speaking of which, what is the story with Mount Panorama? I can't imagine that track is approved for prototypes, is it? One can dream, and I for one would have ZERO problems watching a race there on the day of PLM.

[Acid09]

The championship is brand new and has no fan base yet, of course they have to follow the money first... beggars can't be choosers.

I´d rather have a world championship that races on 1 or 2 tracks that may be a bit boring than no world championship at all!

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Acid09

No, just the truth. I can't believe we´re really discussing whether sports car racing needs a world championship - Of course it does.

A world championship is needed for better media exposure and to push the sport as a whole. For much of the last 50 years there had been a world championship of some sort so I don't really see while people argue if it's needed.

Just look at the effect the WEC has even before the first race has been run. Countless manufacturers show up all of a sudden, you think that's a coincidence?

First of all, I think you`ve failed to comprehend what I`ve written. Jag, places blame that the ALMS didn`t succeed on lack of Domestic support, that is nonsense. Further, Jag tries to suggest that the ALMS attempted to be a World Championship, that too is nonsense. That was the end of my point.

Having said that, perhaps a world championship could be a good thing, but the way this is being mismanaged it is only going to cause long-term damage to the sport, though it might be exciting in the short.

Countless manufacturers showing up? You mean Toyota? One manufacturer is countless, because that is all that has showed up that weren't in the game before.

The WEC will NOT result in better media exposure in North America, than the ALMS does. The reality is that the WEC will be next to invisible here.

The way this is being managed it will not push the sport as a whole, it is detrimental to the sport. It is simply interested in it's own good, for the NOW.

I'm sorry but I think the ALMS fans are in dire need of a reality check. Sports car racing doesn't revolve around the ALMS anymore, it used to when there was no proper series in Europe...it was a crutch for the manufacturers to compete somewhere outside of Le Mans and it wasn't as badly managed as the FIA sports car series of that time.

Manufacturers?

Honda North America? Porsche North America? Audi North America? Mazda North America? Chevrolet North America?... see the trend there... the entrants were the marketing arms of these companies in NORTH AMERICA. These entrants from the last few years are there because they want to market in North America.

It seems apparent that some of the Euros are envious that we had a good series here until Management screwed it up. Now they seem to be gleeful of the issues here.

The reality check is needed by those whom embrace everything with rose coloured glasses, and are incapable of seeing how things will unfold. As good as an idea that a World Championship is, this too is being horribly managed, and what successes it may have will be inspite of itself.

The ALMS has served its cause and it did so well but now there's a proper series for manufacturers in place and the ALMS goes back to what it is supposed to be - A national series just like the ELMS.

That is an opinion based on nothing. There is no reason that manufacturers cannot be represented in both the "National Series" and the World Championship. The issue overall is mismanagement of the sport at a number of levels. This is like watching a bunch of clowns.

Again, I can't believe we're even arguing about this. It is obvious that the WEC is the best thing that happened to sports car racing in the past 20 years. Never has the outlook for our favorite sport been so extremely positive, a shame some people can't enjoy it just because it takes away some of their local privileges (and I say that as a German who doesn't have a WEC round either!).

A complete misread of the point of discussion, and the WEC. The concept of the ALMS was the best thing that happened to the sport in years upon it's inception. Mismanagement has seen that it has not reached it's potential. Had it had good management, there never would have been a need for the WEC. The WEC concept, is indeed something that could be one of the best things that happen to sportscar racing, but again it's mismanagement ensures that isn't the case. This isn't about local privileges at all. If you've followed the argument, you'd see that I have been an advocate of the ALMS completely dumping the WEC, to rebuild a proper North American series. At least Peter could see that the WEC was a negative to the LMS, and parted ways, the ALMS management aren't even that bright. The WEC is acting a competitor to the LMS and ALMS, with decisions that affect both series negatively. What they are doing will hurt the National Series, not strengthen it.

I am not against the WEC concept at all. It simply is being managed in a stupid manner, that isn't for the sport as a whole, just their own little self interest, including money. There is no care for the history of the sport, the present or the future. There will come a point when that hurts the Sportscar racing overall, unless the National Interests distance themselves as much as possible. Peter has started this already.

The ALMS isn't hurting because of a lack of North American manufacturer support... it's hurting because of poor management. Heck, by the end of the year, we could have Chrysler and GM participating with factory efforts.. that's two of three, and it still won't help solve the management issues.

I'm sure some of these races are going to be entertaining to watch, but so will the train wreck of management. The ALMS has managed to survive with a decade of poor management, which at least gives us hope that the WEC can.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Acid09

So the outlook for sports car racing isn't positive? With three major manufacturers competing in P1 in 2012, another confirmed for 2014 and several others close to announcing a program.

Really? When was the last time that happened? Surely not in the last 20 years...

The ALMS had four in their top category a few years ago. Acura, Porsche, Mazda and Audi.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The ALMS had four in their top category a few years ago. Acura, Porsche, Mazda and Audi.

Since when is LMP2 the top category? And come on, Mazda was in no shape or form a works effort compared to Audi, Peugeot, Toyota or Porsche in LMP1.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

First of all, I think you`ve failed to comprehend what I`ve written. Jag, places blame that the ALMS didn`t succeed on lack of Domestic support, that is nonsense. Further, Jag tries to suggest that the ALMS attempted to be a World Championship, that too is nonsense. That was the end of my point.
....

I would like to know what your opinion that the WEC is "mismanaged" is based on. The series hasn't run a single race, we haven't seen the first entry list yet... so I'd say that's a bit premature.

Is all of this based on the PLM/Bahrain thing? Because that's the only slight evidence of mismanagement I can see, even though the organizers have explained why the PLM wasn't included.

The problem with you and other North Americans is that you see everything from your narrow point of view. You say the WEC is mismanaged because it won't improve media coverage in North America. So?

It's a world championship, North America isn't exactly the center of sports car racing in the world - Deal with it. I'm sorry I have to say it but this arrogance is the reason the ALMS is in the state it's in, because it completely overrates it own importance to sports car racing.

There would be no need for the WEC if the ALMS was still strong? That's interesting, again, it's all about the North Americans... the "me, me, me" attitude.

Your vastly overrating the importance of North America to international sports car racing and I'm happy this is being corrected by the WEC. The heart & soul of this type of racing lies in Europe, a town called Le Mans to be precise...

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Since when is LMP2 the top category? And come on, Mazda was in no shape or form a works effort compared to Audi, Peugeot, Toyota or Porsche in LMP1.

I gather you didn't follow the ALMS at that point? If you were paying attention, surely you would not ask such a question.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by Acid09

It's a world championship, North America isn't exactly the center of sports car racing in the world - Deal with it. I'm sorry I have to say it but this arrogance is the reason the ALMS is in the state it's in, because it completely overrates it own importance to sports car racing.

There would be no need for the WEC if the ALMS was still strong? That's interesting, again, it's all about the North Americans... the "me, me, me" attitude.

Your vastly overrating the importance of North America to international sports car racing and I'm happy this is being corrected by the WEC. The heart & soul of this type of racing lies in Europe, a town called Le Mans to be precise...

Hmmm, Panoz named his series after the great race, that doesn’t strike me as arrogance. Hell Petit Lemans is a homage to the race that was aimed at improving sports car racing in this country and providing a connection to our European counterparts.

You seem to be the one that has “issues” and your posts are the ones that sound arrogant. I would appreciate it if you didn’t speak for all North Americans.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I gather you didn't follow the ALMS at that point? If you were paying attention, surely you would not ask such a question.

Of course I followed the ALMS back then and I'm aware that the LMP2 cars were racing amongst the LMP1s but they were still not the top-category - Your statement was simply wrong.

And if anything, that era highlights another thing wrong with the ALMS. The, at-times, fabricated racing. The LMP2s were never meant to challenge the LMP1s, the ALMS just bent the rules to create a "better show", something that doesn't sit well with Europeans.

Same goes for the safety car rules which are one reason for the PLM not being included in the WEC as explained by the officials. That will most likely be the main reason for the WEC to run standalone events in the US in the future, the different philosophies don't mix too well.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by Acid09

the ALMS just bent the rules to create a "better show", something that doesn't sit well with Europeans.

Holy Crap! I fell out of my chair on that one. See FIA whatever and get back to us.

[trahsub]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Is all of this based on the PLM/Bahrain thing? Because that's the only slight evidence of mismanagement I can see, even though the organizers have explained why the PLM wasn't included.

The problem with you and other North Americans is that you see everything from your narrow point of view. You say the WEC is mismanaged because it won't improve media coverage in North America. So?

It's a world championship, North America isn't exactly the center of sports car racing in the world - Deal with it. I'm sorry I have to say it but this arrogance is the reason the ALMS is in the state it's in, because it completely overrates it own importance to sports car racing.

There would be no need for the WEC if the ALMS was still strong? That's interesting, again, it's all about the North Americans... the "me, me, me" attitude.

Your vastly overrating the importance of North America to international sports car racing and I'm happy this is being corrected by the WEC. The heart & soul of this type of racing lies in Europe, a town called Le Mans to be precise...

Answer your own statement. Where is the center of the sports car racing world? Cause it's not in China, Bahrain, or Tuvalu. China & Co. may be experiencing the largest growth in cars sales, but people buying Camrys and Buicks are not lining the fence at races, so I'm not sure what the goal here is as far as some of these venues are concerned.

Also, your statements are sliding towards insults over constructive discussion about sports cars. Check the attitude at the darwaza.

[Acid09]

Of course those are not the centers of sports car racing but they are needed to pay the bills. Why is that so hard to understand?

I think 1-2 races each season on such tracks are a reasonable trade-off to have for a strong world championship.

[Fogelhund]

The problem with you and other North Americans is that you see everything from your narrow point of view. You say the WEC is mismanaged because it won't improve media coverage in North America. So?

It's a world championship, North America isn't exactly the center of sports car racing in the world - Deal with it. I'm sorry I have to say it but this arrogance is the reason the ALMS is in the state it's in, because it completely overrates it own importance to sports car racing.

There would be no need for the WEC if the ALMS was still strong? That's interesting, again, it's all about the North Americans... the "me, me, me" attitude.

Thank You for calling North Americans arrogant, and the personal attacks towards the North Americans, including myself on this board.

Having said that...

The problem with you Europeans is you see everything from your narrow point of view. You completely fail to see this as anything other than as fanbois, with no capability to see the sport as a business, or how one move shapes the next.

I'm sorry that you take factual information, and warp it to suggest a me, me attitude. Fact; had the ALMS continued to provide reasonable ROI for Audi in particular, there never would have been a need for the WEC. Audi was the lead behind the push, because they couldn't justify the budget on LM itself, and the ALMS no longer provided the ROI.

There certainly is some arrogance within the ALMS management, but it isn't what you think it is. Your assumption that it overrates it's place in Sportscars is not the problem.

Originally Posted by Acid09

I would like to know what your opinion that the WEC is "mismanaged" is based on. The series hasn't run a single race, we haven't seen the first entry list yet... so I'd say that's a bit premature.

Is all of this based on the PLM/Bahrain thing? Because that's the only slight evidence of mismanagement I can see, even though the organizers have explained why the PLM wasn't included.

Again, if you've been paying any attention at all, I've been stating that this has been mismanaged since the inception of ILMC. At least JAG would recognize this. You would also understand that I was the FIRST person who pointed out that PLM wasn't fit for the combined race, back in March of 2011. It couldn't hold the number of entries. My pointing this out even resulted in Speed doing an interview on the topic, at which point Atherton stated there would not be issues at PLM for entry numbers... Of course, he had no idea what he was talking about at the time.

Here is a short list of things that are wrong with ILMC/WEC

1. In it for self-interest only, not for the ELMS or ALMS. 1.) Demanding Marketing rights for shared races 2.) Demanding exclusive TV rights for shared races.

2. Expansion beyond LMP1 - Why the need for LMP2? Was this because the manufacturer entrants demanded it? Why the need for GT2? Outside of BMW, nobody entered last year... sure, Aston will this year, so that's two. See, the problem is there just isn't enough strong interest and money in the sport, to be good for both the National AND World Championships. You can choose to be either supportive of the sport and the National Championships, or detrimental to it.

What exactly has the ILMC/WEC done to further sportscar racing, to make ELMS or ALMS have a better future?

Let me answer that for you; everything they've done, has made it more difficult for both ELMS and the ALMS. When you devalue your support group, you erode your future. LMS is no longer going to have LMP1, so I might ask, where exactly are future privateer LMP1 entries coming from? The answer, you will see LMP1 erode in the future, except for manufacturer only entries.

Part deux. There are economies of scale with the production of LMP1 chassis. Now that there is no Euro market, and the ALMS is further devalued, the chances of a manufacture of chassis (Lola, Oreca, Courage, Zytek etc. ) making any money designing and building primarily for the WEC is next to zero. There simply will never be enough privateer entrants to support this cottage industry. So, look for the handful of privateers to end up in one or two chassis in the near future.

Part three - The ELMS/LMES/LMS/ELMS has been a privateer series, a replacement of FIA WCC, with GT. It's cost base allows it to continue as a minor series. The ALMS has been based as a manufacturer based series. With the North American landscape, it will not survive without some major change, most likely away from the the current ACO rules categories. It is a simple reality. So, I know you don't care about North America, and the envy of our past success is having you quite gleeful now, but there is a cause and effect. The ALMS is more likely to fail, and LMS being a minor series, suddenly Le Mans itself is dependent upon the WEC.... just as it was with the prior World Championship. Just as it was with the end of the FIA GT1 world championship. Le Mans long prided itself for being independent, to keep it's long-term viability. That has gone away. Sportscar racing should have the goal of strengthening all of sportscar racing. You'll probably fail to see the business reality here, and once again make some type of attack on North Americans. The ALMS goes away, Corvette Racing goes away. The market for GTE cars drops in half, and the viability of that class drops greatly around the world.

That we might have Peugeot, Audi, Toyota and Porsche involved for a short period of time, ignores the reality that these are marketing programs. You don't win, you won't stay involved. Not everybody is going to win. The World Sportscar Championship had factory built customer cars as their backbone. This will not happen here, not to the degree it did back then. Should a few manufacturers drop out, it's game over, not just for the WEC, but for Le Mans too, you'll see some very bleak years when this thing folds up, and believe me it will.

Now Bahrain... Bahrain... please... This event is all about the FIA, control, F1 and money. There is no argument to be made here about growing the fanbase, sales of cars, or much of anything. This is about self-interest. Can't wait until this World Championship has LM + 1 Europe race, nothing in the Americas, and 4-5 races in Asia and the Middle East... it will end up this way before it folds.

As far as the Bahrain/PLM issue... You cannot provide an argument that shows how this is a good thing. This is just plain stupid. You've taken what has been the #3 ACO race, and marginalized it, for a near invisible race in Bahrain. Bahrain wasn't available on any other weekend? The ACO/FIA knew what date PLM was, really if you can't see the problem and mismanagement here, and it isn't about North America, but the ACO brand itself, there is no hope.

------------------------------

What should have been done?

Make a World Championship, that helps everyone.. makes the LMES strong, makes the ALMS stronger, makes LM stronger. Limit this to manufacturer LMP1 entries only. Ultimately what should have been done is one of two things. Either a three race series in each of Europe and North America, tied with LMES and ALMS, plus two in Asia... or the better plan is two in each continent, with the requirement to run full season in either the LMES or ALMS, your choice.

The question should be, how do we make the sport stronger everywhere, how do we make it more sustainable. You can't argue that the current WEC management is making the sport stronger everywhere, and you certainly cannot provide any argument about sustainability.

Your vastly overrating the importance of North America to international sports car racing and I'm happy this is being corrected by the WEC. The heart & soul of this type of racing lies in Europe, a town called Le Mans to be precise...

..and you call North Americans arrogant?

[Purist]

Except, if it follows another FIA series' model, these venues will stay, and only become MORE prevalent as time goes on. Short-termism isn't just an issue with the FIA, or various other motorsport branches, it's the way of major business today. And the executives don't give a damn if they wreck the ship, so long as they get their "golden parachutes" before, or even after, the s--t hits the fan.

I think Americans would be more positive about "global" things, if they got the sense that such enterprises actually benefitted them. If you can't show them a direct benefit to them personally though, don't expect a standing ovation. For starters, it might be nice if the WEC races were even going to be broadcast over here.

Also, if the global series comes with the very possible demise of our own series, with no opportunity to really take in the global series, why should we be excited? Going back to the short-termism thing, the local manufacturers have NASCAR for their instant motorsport ROI, and it would take real, long-term investment to bring ALMS up to a level of significane in comparison. Therefore, that investment just isn't going to happen in the current business climate. The trouble is, any meaningful national series here NEEDS the manufacturer backing to survive long-term. We have substantially more people than any single European country, and to go with that, we have as much land area to cover as all of Europe combined. So, it's a very different equation that has to be worked out here anyway. (The territory to cover increases even more once you include even pieces of Canada.)

Honestly, I like the theory of the World Championship, but if it's likely to take away a large part of my ability to follow the sport at all, then it really doesn't work so well in practice.

Also, I do wonder just how big the WSC was in the 1980s compared to F1. The glory years, that actually lasted, for the WSC came to a close at the end of the 1973 season. With that, Sebring and the Targa departed the calendar, and Ferrari left sportscar racing as a factory for good (and this is still true to this day). Since then, the greater world of sportscar racing has had ONE stalwart event (Le Mans itself), and ONE stalwart manufacturer (Porsche).

For 1953-73, what we'd call a high point, or at least a nice bounce, with 3-4 manufacturers, was the normal minimum in the WSC. As for events, back then you had Le Mans, Sebring, the Mille and/or the Targa for Italy, the TT at Dundrod (then Goodwood or Oulton Park) for Britain, and the Nurburgring 1000km for Germany. For the final two decades of the old WSC, it was largely a game of musical chairs with events. Le Mans was the sole anchor, with Spa being about most reliable second to it. Britain was diluted between Silverstone, Brands Hatch, and Donington Park all taking turns (sometimes with two of the aforementioned in the same year). Kyalami came and went. Fuji gave way to Suzuka (with Autopolis having its one-off in 1991). The Nurburgring 1000km was obviously just never the same after 1983, and it became a less-consistently-held event once the new GP circuit was around.

In Group C, it was just Porsche and Lancia for 1982-85. Jaguar came to an interrupted stay in power in 1987-88 and 1991, with Mercedes-Benz filling that gap. That stint with umpteen manufacturers involved was short-lived (1988-90 or so). We had another such burst of factory activity at Le Mans in 1998-99, which does fall in the last 20 years.

To get back to the ALMS/ELMS/WEC thing, there is a scale here that some of you are missing here. The ALMS is, by default, the equivalent of a continental or even intercontinental series when comparing it to Europe. Can you imagine if the ELMS ran a 12-race calendar (ALMS ran 12 races in 2007)? Going by population, rather than land area, those 12 races in the ALMS would translate to about 30 in Europe.

And don't start again on the thing that the ALMS should just have fewer, but longer, races. That won't work in this country. Having two-month gaps between every single round is unsustainable here. It precludes being able to build any kind of momentum, and leaves too much of the country completely unserved. As it is, where I live, Road America is ~650 miles away, and Mid Ohio is ~900 miles away. Europeans have a different take on time scales compared to Americans (more patient and willing to work/wait for gratification in some areas at least); you also have excellent mass transit across the continent. In addition, all of Europe is densely populated, relatively speaking, so having fewer events can work since there will be more people in a given area, and you only have to reach a smaller percentage of the overall population to get the same sized audience. To put it another way, even with 12 races, imagine trying to serve anywhere near the whole of the Asian population with LM-type racing with that number of events; it just won't work.

Sorry, I'm rambling, and I'm a bit frustrated, but hopefully some of what I'm saying makes sense.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Appreciating that most of the teams have booked their hotels, and travel already...

'Most of the teams' haven't even confirmed their participation it seems.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Of course I followed the ALMS back then and I'm aware that the LMP2 cars were racing amongst the LMP1s but they were still not the top-category - Your statement was simply wrong.

And if anything, that era highlights another thing wrong with the ALMS. The, at-times, fabricated racing. The LMP2s were never meant to challenge the LMP1s, the ALMS just bent the rules to create a "better show", something that doesn't sit well with Europeans.

Same goes for the safety car rules which are one reason for the PLM not being included in the WEC as explained by the officials. That will most likely be the main reason for the WEC to run standalone events in the US in the future, the different philosophies don't mix too well.

The ALMS did not bend the rules. They used the exact rules, as created by the ACO.

The ACO in fact, changed the rules to manipulate an artificial gap between LMP1 and LMP2, when they realized they had a result they hadn't intended. This is in fact, fabricated racing, creating an artificial gap, that hadn't been there in the original writing of the rules.

To all that had common sense, there was ONE LMP category, and Porsche, Acura and Audi were all going for overall victories.

I find it quite amusing, where the ACO has created, and still maintains an artificial advantage for the Diesels. I think most would argue, that over time that should disappear, for Diesels and Petrols to be equal. I for one being North American, fully endorse this artificial fabricated racing, that allows both Petrol and Diesel to be competitive. I imagine that you will be protesting this impure activity?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

'Most of the teams' haven't even confirmed their participation it seems.

Most, as in the the majority in numbers are committed for next year by now, or not. There are some unknowns, and undecideds, but the majority of the grid will be fixed by now. That there hasn't been some grand statement, or PR piece doesn't make it not so.