[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[Speed-King]

And don't start again on the thing that the ALMS should just have fewer, but longer, races. That won't work in this country. Having two-month gaps between every single round is unsustainable here. It precludes being able to build any kind of momentum

While I fully agree that a series with large schedule gaps would probably not work, I still think that a short compressed schedule might be workable for the ALMS.

Look at the NFL - of all the major American sports it has the shortest season, lasting only about 5 month and with relatively few games per team (for a stick and ball sport), and yet it is the absolute top dog sport in the US.

I am wondering if something similar might not be possible for the ALMS, have a schedule of 6 or 7 races exclusively in the summer months after Le Mans, and wrap it up by mid-September.

What this would need, though, is manufacturer involvement in order to create a buzz around the series and to have everybody really psyched for it and that is of course a bit of a chicken-egg situation...

What should have been done?

Make a World Championship, that helps everyone.. makes the LMES strong, makes the ALMS stronger, makes LM stronger. Limit this to manufacturer LMP1 entries only. Ultimately what should have been done is one of two things. Either a three race series in each of Europe and North America, tied with LMES and ALMS, plus two in Asia... or the better plan is two in each continent, with the requirement to run full season in either the LMES or ALMS, your choice.

The problem with this is, that the WEC is pretty much the brainchild of the manufacturers, and with the ACO being who they are there is no way, that they'd ever dictate rules to the manufacturers which these don't like. If they were to do it, though, the manufacturers would probably simply walk away from it - or in a worst case scenario, go to the FIA directly and cut the ACO out...

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I am wondering if something similar might not be possible for the ALMS, have a schedule of 6 or 7 races exclusively in the summer months after Le Mans, and wrap it up by mid-September.

Sebring in the summer months?

... anyway, changing classes, races, schedules etc... all rather irrelevant until such time as there is good management in place.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Sebring in the summer months?

... anyway, changing classes, races, schedules etc... all rather irrelevant until such time as there is good management in place.

Well, I assumed that Don would give Sebring to the ACO... I certainly wouldn't put it beyond him, but that of course brings us back to the question of good management.

[JAG]

World Championship sportscar racing is ingrained in the history of the sport, it's a fact manufactuers, teams and sponsors are increasingly looking global to emerging markets.

With so much focus on the ALMS, it seems to be forgotten in 2008 the LMS lost the support of Audi and Peugeot, there was a very real prospect both would withdraw from the sport entirely. Saying if the the ALMS continued to provide ROI to manufactuers they'd have remained doesn't help a great deal if you want to watch the best sportscars at Silverstone or Spa.

Something had to be done, basing an international series around the ALMS wasn't on, few NA teams would travel and the future of the series has been questioned on a regular basis. That being the case an all new international series was needed, it had to be truely global, which ruled out using the LMS as a starting point, just two rounds in Europe outside Le Mans goes to show the ACO/FIA aren't favouring any one continent.

Patrick Peter is part of the WEC organisation, he understands there's a place for national, regional and international series. There's an entirely different philosophy and level of funding on both sides of the Atlantic, there must be getting on for a couple hundred fairly new GT3's pounding around circuits in Europe, a handful of these cars turning up in the ALMS/GA is talked of as if it's a game changer. In the UK alone you could draw up a list of two dozen plus teams that could potentially run in the WEC in the coming years, to use a crude expression, they all **** in the same road racing pot, they may currently run in British GT, BTCC, F3, FR 3.5 etc., but the WEC will be under consideration if it ticks all the boxes.

In NA the ALMS, GA and Indycar are fighting between themselves for teams, sponsors and coverage, it looks like at least one will fall in time. This dog eat dog way of doing business is neccessary because NASCAR and the oval scene sucks the life out of road racing, with little crossover, unlike F1.

The ACO's vision for the sport is cutting edge technology AND a sportscar development ladder similar to that seen in single-seaters, sportscar racing is their business. Bringing in major manufactuers like Toyota and Porsche with F1 level programs is what I call a game changer, they aren't here just to put on a good show for us enthusiasts, they have the marketing muscle to make a dent on the wider population for more than one race per year, that in turn increases visibility for privateers.

[lms]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Let me answer that for you; everything they've done, has made it more difficult for both ELMS and the ALMS. When you devalue your support group, you erode your future. LMS is no longer going to have LMP1, so I might ask, where exactly are future privateer LMP1 entries coming from? The answer, you will see LMP1 erode in the future, except for manufacturer only entries.

on many occasions, the ACO subtly hinted that they dont give a sh*t about privateers in lmp1, they could all roll over and die for all they care, main thing is watching the audi and peugeot battle for the 100th time. It really sucks, but I think you may be right about privateer lmp ones might just begin to disappear soon.
Maybe some lmp1 teams with smaller budgets might want to compete in a european/north american championship and its not really a great thing to ban them from the european championship.
And the "p1 for manufacturers, p2 for privateers" concept is crap too, imho, privateer entries should absolutely race in lmp1. And there are/were some really professional teams in p1. Like srakka racing. Or highcroft. Its not good that lmp1 teams can only choose between alms and wec.
But I dont know why im worried... the FIAsCO will probably rape the lmp1 regs in 2014, so....

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by lms

on many occasions, the ACO subtly hinted that they dont give a sh*t about privateers in lmp1, they could all roll over and die for all they care, main thing is watching the audi and peugeot battle for the 100th time..

They don't seem to care about much else beyond their factory LMP1 dollars, and sanction fee from whomever they can get it from. No care for the history, or future of the sport IMHO.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Are people so ignorant that they believe Audi, Peugeot, Porsche, Toyota ect will all be in LMP1 forever? Just look at the world market right now, one more world economic crash and ALL of these programs could be cancelled. In this situation, the manufacturer boards will not make decisions based on their love of motorsport or how great Le Mans is, but if it makes economic sense, which right now, in my opinion it does not.

If all these manufacturers leave Le Mans racing, who is going to fill the LMP1 grid? Well, it should be the privateer teams like in 2000 after all but one major top-category LMP manufacturer dropped the sport. But the ACO and Audi/Peugeot corrupt lobbying has done it's best to kill off the quality privateer teams. In 2008, even with Audi/Peugeot there we had Pescarolo, OAK (then Saulnier) Charouz, Dome, ORECA, Epilson Euskadi, Creation, Mugen and Hugh Chamberlain. How many next year? Strakka, OAK, Rebellion? Henri Pescarolo who runs one of the best operations in LMP1, someone who actually has to find *gasp* actual sponsors in ACO racing can barely put together a program next year.

I wish the FIAsCO good luck finding new LMP1 cars to fill the grid if/when the big boys leave.

[TF110]

All of you are debating yet to occur events. Honda, Toyota, Audi, Peugeot, Porsche possible entries like Nissan for top honors? Not even F1 has that support. In its infancy WEC looks to be the place to be, whether it stays that way or what tracks it runs are yet to be determined. Lets just hold off the guess work and the doom profecies. RA is too small, PLM is gone, FIA controlled by Bernie, ALMS has bad management; enough already! This is a WEC thread, but were not even on topic. Lets just hope it succeeds and that American interest is increased so everyone can be happy. I would be ecstatic if there were 10 rounds with 2 in America, 4 in Europe, 3 in Asia and LeMans. We gotta wait and see, it's yet to begin.

[Rodger Davies]

Fogulhund; post #1171 = Post of the Year.

Absolutely spot on. And that's coming from a European (!).

I liked the ILMC concept but I never understood why P2, and to a lesser extent, GT2, was involved. The manufacturers don't care who they're beating, so why not have a P1 World Championship that supplies eight to twelve platinum entries to the regional series' fields instead of insisting on a standalone championship that draws entries from the very teams that comprised those two once-strong championships?

It makes so little sense it's very clear that this has been done to line a few people's pockets instead of for the good of the sport. The opportunity was there and it's been sqandered, so we'll have to enjoy a few high quality races for a couple of years and then watch all three series disappear and sportscar racing have to start again. Again.

GT3s, VdeV and Prototurtles at Le Mans anybody? Can't wait......

[Speed-King]

I wish the FIAsCO good luck finding new LMP1 cars to fill the grid if/when the big boys leave.

It's still Le Mans, and the 90s have shown that it can survive as GT-event. If it comes to the worst, Rip the restrictors out of the GTEs and let them go for the overall victory, and rebuilt from there.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Thank You for calling North Americans arrogant, and the personal attacks towards the North Americans, including myself on this board.

Having said that...

The problem with you Europeans is you see everything from your narrow point of view. You completely fail to see this as anything other than as fanbois, with no capability to see the sport as a business, or how one move shapes the next.

I'm sorry that you take factual information, and warp it to suggest a me, me attitude. Fact; had the ALMS continued to provide reasonable ROI for Audi in particular, there never would have been a need for the WEC. Audi was the lead behind the push, because they couldn't justify the budget on LM itself, and the ALMS no longer provided the ROI.

There certainly is some arrogance within the ALMS management, but it isn't what you think it is. Your assumption that it overrates it's place in Sportscars is not the problem.








Again, if you've been paying any attention at all, I've been stating that this has been mismanaged since the inception of ILMC. At least JAG would recognize this. You would also understand that I was the FIRST person who pointed out that PLM wasn't fit for the combined race, back in March of 2011. It couldn't hold the number of entries. My pointing this out even resulted in Speed doing an interview on the topic, at which point Atherton stated there would not be issues at PLM for entry numbers... Of course, he had no idea what he was talking about at the time.

Here is a short list of things that are wrong with ILMC/WEC

1. In it for self-interest only, not for the ELMS or ALMS. 1.) Demanding Marketing rights for shared races 2.) Demanding exclusive TV rights for shared races.

2. Expansion beyond LMP1 - Why the need for LMP2? Was this because the manufacturer entrants demanded it? Why the need for GT2? Outside of BMW, nobody entered last year... sure, Aston will this year, so that's two. See, the problem is there just isn't enough strong interest and money in the sport, to be good for both the National AND World Championships. You can choose to be either supportive of the sport and the National Championships, or detrimental to it.

What exactly has the ILMC/WEC done to further sportscar racing, to make ELMS or ALMS have a better future?

Let me answer that for you; everything they've done, has made it more difficult for both ELMS and the ALMS. When you devalue your support group, you erode your future. LMS is no longer going to have LMP1, so I might ask, where exactly are future privateer LMP1 entries coming from? The answer, you will see LMP1 erode in the future, except for manufacturer only entries.

Part deux. There are economies of scale with the production of LMP1 chassis. Now that there is no Euro market, and the ALMS is further devalued, the chances of a manufacture of chassis (Lola, Oreca, Courage, Zytek etc. ) making any money designing and building primarily for the WEC is next to zero. There simply will never be enough privateer entrants to support this cottage industry. So, look for the handful of privateers to end up in one or two chassis in the near future.

Part three - The ELMS/LMES/LMS/ELMS has been a privateer series, a replacement of FIA WCC, with GT. It's cost base allows it to continue as a minor series. The ALMS has been based as a manufacturer based series. With the North American landscape, it will not survive without some major change, most likely away from the the current ACO rules categories. It is a simple reality. So, I know you don't care about North America, and the envy of our past success is having you quite gleeful now, but there is a cause and effect. The ALMS is more likely to fail, and LMS being a minor series, suddenly Le Mans itself is dependent upon the WEC.... just as it was with the prior World Championship. Just as it was with the end of the FIA GT1 world championship. Le Mans long prided itself for being independent, to keep it's long-term viability. That has gone away. Sportscar racing should have the goal of strengthening all of sportscar racing. You'll probably fail to see the business reality here, and once again make some type of attack on North Americans. The ALMS goes away, Corvette Racing goes away. The market for GTE cars drops in half, and the viability of that class drops greatly around the world.

That we might have Peugeot, Audi, Toyota and Porsche involved for a short period of time, ignores the reality that these are marketing programs. You don't win, you won't stay involved. Not everybody is going to win. The World Sportscar Championship had factory built customer cars as their backbone. This will not happen here, not to the degree it did back then. Should a few manufacturers drop out, it's game over, not just for the WEC, but for Le Mans too, you'll see some very bleak years when this thing folds up, and believe me it will.

Now Bahrain... Bahrain... please... This event is all about the FIA, control, F1 and money. There is no argument to be made here about growing the fanbase, sales of cars, or much of anything. This is about self-interest. Can't wait until this World Championship has LM + 1 Europe race, nothing in the Americas, and 4-5 races in Asia and the Middle East... it will end up this way before it folds.

As far as the Bahrain/PLM issue... You cannot provide an argument that shows how this is a good thing. This is just plain stupid. You've taken what has been the #3 ACO race, and marginalized it, for a near invisible race in Bahrain. Bahrain wasn't available on any other weekend? The ACO/FIA knew what date PLM was, really if you can't see the problem and mismanagement here, and it isn't about North America, but the ACO brand itself, there is no hope.

------------------------------

What should have been done?

Make a World Championship, that helps everyone.. makes the LMES strong, makes the ALMS stronger, makes LM stronger. Limit this to manufacturer LMP1 entries only. Ultimately what should have been done is one of two things. Either a three race series in each of Europe and North America, tied with LMES and ALMS, plus two in Asia... or the better plan is two in each continent, with the requirement to run full season in either the LMES or ALMS, your choice.

The question should be, how do we make the sport stronger everywhere, how do we make it more sustainable. You can't argue that the current WEC management is making the sport stronger everywhere, and you certainly cannot provide any argument about sustainability.





..and you call North Americans arrogant?

This guy should be running sports car racing, spot on regarding every issue.

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

It's still Le Mans, and the 90s have shown that it can survive as GT-event. If it comes to the worst, Rip the restrictors out of the GTEs and let them go for the overall victory, and rebuilt from there.

ALMS and LMS go down and I doubt there'll be such a thing as GTE.

Having said that, on a personal note I'd love your suggestion to come true anyway! Love GTE but they're getting restrained a little too much thanks to the P2 ceiling.

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

This guy should be running sports car racing, spot on regarding every issue.

And this guy should be on the panel who decides who runs sportscar racing......

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

ALMS and LMS go down and I doubt there'll be such a thing as GTE.

The cars wouldn't suddenly dissappear and the prospect of an outright LM-victory might bring many of them out of the woodwork even if they had been lying dormant for a year or two during the hypothetical downfall of the WEC/LMS.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

It's still Le Mans, and the 90s have shown that it can survive as GT-event. If it comes to the worst, Rip the restrictors out of the GTEs and let them go for the overall victory, and rebuilt from there.

SuperGT makers want to run their cars in more than just their SGT series. If lmp goes away it doesn't HAVE to mean manufacturers leave. If they do who will race? Privateers? With help from whom? The series has to stay alive, so whats the series without the manufacturers racing in it? It's all a big circle, but regardless of who stays and who goes, the show has to go on. One way or another.

[JAG]

This is one strange thread, the sport is on the brink of a golden age, it's expanding to a global audience, manufactuers are coming back to prototype's and GT's, sportscar racing is in a buoyant state from club, national, regional and international level, and yet all we here about is the despressing state of NA sportscar and road racing and every conceivable doom laden prediction under the sun.

NA is just one link in the chain, it's no more important than any other region, all I've read about is ALMS this, ALMS that. When the ALMS was top dog the LMS was considered a threat, not a regionaly ally, it's poor attendances, TV ratings and lack of factory support where mocked, there wasn't any thought of how both series could work together, learn and improve, it was a case of I'm alright Jack, get your own house in order.

The WEC hasn't systematically picked apart the LMS/ALMS, quite the opposite, the LMS/ALMS set-up had served it's purpose, but was begining to crack and lose manufactuers. In case people have forgotten, post 2008 Peugeot and Audi weren't competing in any series, they were picking occasional races, staying match fit for Le Mans, while rumours where rife they'd pack in entirely.

Now, at last, there is a World Championship that gives manufactuers what they want, privateers and drivers too have universally welcomed the Championship, the sport has strength in depth that could once only be dreamed of, and clear, long-term planning from the grass roots onwards, something which can't be said for many series who are stumbling from one crisis to another.

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Are people so ignorant that they believe Audi, Peugeot, Porsche, Toyota ect will all be in LMP1 forever?

I wish the FIAsCO good luck finding new LMP1 cars to fill the grid if/when the big boys leave.

Such manufactuers don't just turn up, the ACO conducts visits and meetings the year round, Japanease manufactuers have been targeted for the past three or so, it isn't a coincidence Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Mazda have greater involvment, likewise Porsche, they wanted P1 to be for cars similar to their RS Spyder, they wanted hybrid technology, their entry is the result of long-term planning.

Privateers teams are as strong as they've ever been, throughout the classes, the equipment they have at their dispossal is improving, and the sport is attracting teams from other disciplines, be it touring cars or single-seaters.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Acid09

The championship is brand new and has no fan base yet, of course they have to follow the money first... beggars can't be choosers.

Huh? No fan base? Do you not see the tens of thousands of fans that go to Sebring and Petit? Those are all potential WEC fans, but I guess North Americans don't count. Well, there's no point in even trying to count them if all the ACO wants to do is cheese them off.

Anyway, this is the classic short-sighted thinking that will doom the WEC. There is a sports car fan base already. They go to races like Sebring and Petit. They also go to races like Road America and Mid-Ohio. The WEC would rather crush those fans and lose them forever so that they can chase bags of money from Bahrain and who knows where else in the future.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Thank You for calling North Americans arrogant, and the personal attacks towards the North Americans, including myself on this board.

Having said that...

The problem with you Europeans is you see everything from your narrow point of view. You completely fail to see this as anything other than as fanbois, with no capability to see the sport as a business, or how one move shapes the next.

I'm sorry that you take factual information, and warp it to suggest a me, me attitude. Fact; had the ALMS continued to provide reasonable ROI for Audi in particular, there never would have been a need for the WEC. Audi was the lead behind the push, because they couldn't justify the budget on LM itself, and the ALMS no longer provided the ROI.

There certainly is some arrogance within the ALMS management, but it isn't what you think it is. Your assumption that it overrates it's place in Sportscars is not the problem.

Again, if you've been paying any attention at all, I've been stating that this has been mismanaged since the inception of ILMC. At least JAG would recognize this. You would also understand that I was the FIRST person who pointed out that PLM wasn't fit for the combined race, back in March of 2011. It couldn't hold the number of entries. My pointing this out even resulted in Speed doing an interview on the topic, at which point Atherton stated there would not be issues at PLM for entry numbers... Of course, he had no idea what he was talking about at the time.

Here is a short list of things that are wrong with ILMC/WEC

1. In it for self-interest only, not for the ELMS or ALMS. 1.) Demanding Marketing rights for shared races 2.) Demanding exclusive TV rights for shared races.

2. Expansion beyond LMP1 - Why the need for LMP2? Was this because the manufacturer entrants demanded it? Why the need for GT2? Outside of BMW, nobody entered last year... sure, Aston will this year, so that's two. See, the problem is there just isn't enough strong interest and money in the sport, to be good for both the National AND World Championships. You can choose to be either supportive of the sport and the National Championships, or detrimental to it.

What exactly has the ILMC/WEC done to further sportscar racing, to make ELMS or ALMS have a better future?

Let me answer that for you; everything they've done, has made it more difficult for both ELMS and the ALMS. When you devalue your support group, you erode your future. LMS is no longer going to have LMP1, so I might ask, where exactly are future privateer LMP1 entries coming from? The answer, you will see LMP1 erode in the future, except for manufacturer only entries.

Part deux. There are economies of scale with the production of LMP1 chassis. Now that there is no Euro market, and the ALMS is further devalued, the chances of a manufacture of chassis (Lola, Oreca, Courage, Zytek etc. ) making any money designing and building primarily for the WEC is next to zero. There simply will never be enough privateer entrants to support this cottage industry. So, look for the handful of privateers to end up in one or two chassis in the near future.

Part three - The ELMS/LMES/LMS/ELMS has been a privateer series, a replacement of FIA WCC, with GT. It's cost base allows it to continue as a minor series. The ALMS has been based as a manufacturer based series. With the North American landscape, it will not survive without some major change, most likely away from the the current ACO rules categories. It is a simple reality. So, I know you don't care about North America, and the envy of our past success is having you quite gleeful now, but there is a cause and effect. The ALMS is more likely to fail, and LMS being a minor series, suddenly Le Mans itself is dependent upon the WEC.... just as it was with the prior World Championship. Just as it was with the end of the FIA GT1 world championship. Le Mans long prided itself for being independent, to keep it's long-term viability. That has gone away. Sportscar racing should have the goal of strengthening all of sportscar racing. You'll probably fail to see the business reality here, and once again make some type of attack on North Americans. The ALMS goes away, Corvette Racing goes away. The market for GTE cars drops in half, and the viability of that class drops greatly around the world.

That we might have Peugeot, Audi, Toyota and Porsche involved for a short period of time, ignores the reality that these are marketing programs. You don't win, you won't stay involved. Not everybody is going to win. The World Sportscar Championship had factory built customer cars as their backbone. This will not happen here, not to the degree it did back then. Should a few manufacturers drop out, it's game over, not just for the WEC, but for Le Mans too, you'll see some very bleak years when this thing folds up, and believe me it will.

Now Bahrain... Bahrain... please... This event is all about the FIA, control, F1 and money. There is no argument to be made here about growing the fanbase, sales of cars, or much of anything. This is about self-interest. Can't wait until this World Championship has LM + 1 Europe race, nothing in the Americas, and 4-5 races in Asia and the Middle East... it will end up this way before it folds.

As far as the Bahrain/PLM issue... You cannot provide an argument that shows how this is a good thing. This is just plain stupid. You've taken what has been the #3 ACO race, and marginalized it, for a near invisible race in Bahrain. Bahrain wasn't available on any other weekend? The ACO/FIA knew what date PLM was, really if you can't see the problem and mismanagement here, and it isn't about North America, but the ACO brand itself, there is no hope.

------------------------------

What should have been done?

Make a World Championship, that helps everyone.. makes the LMES strong, makes the ALMS stronger, makes LM stronger. Limit this to manufacturer LMP1 entries only. Ultimately what should have been done is one of two things. Either a three race series in each of Europe and North America, tied with LMES and ALMS, plus two in Asia... or the better plan is two in each continent, with the requirement to run full season in either the LMES or ALMS, your choice.

The question should be, how do we make the sport stronger everywhere, how do we make it more sustainable. You can't argue that the current WEC management is making the sport stronger everywhere, and you certainly cannot provide any argument about sustainability.

..and you call North Americans arrogant?

There's a lot of truth here. I'm glad you wrote what you wrote. Some think that us American fans are ranting simply because another series from somewhere else is trying to become more powerful. That simply isn't the case. At least I don't think that is the case with the posters here. Many of us were supportive of the ILMC. That does not mean we liked 100% of it, but we could see the reasons why it could be a good idea. The stuff the WEC is doing though is simply unacceptable. It's not just an American issue either. Certainly what has happened to Petit is a crushing and unnecessary blow, but that type of stupid decisionmaking will come back to haunt everyone. Stupid ideas don't occur in a vacuum.

I also take personal offense to American fans being arrogant. Americans embraced Le Mans at a time where Le Mans was not that big of a deal at all in America. We supported and embraced European rules, teams, and so forth at a time where it wasn't always popular to do so. We've tried to make things work for everyone and the end result is that we have a couple of pretty darn good international sports car races here now. Now, all of a sudden, the people we welcomed and embraced want to take a giant crap now that they have a little momentum on their side. There is arrogance, but don't point at us as being the starting point. I think we played nicely before, but don't expect that to continue given the current nonsense.

Originally Posted by Purist

Except, if it follows another FIA series' model, these venues will stay, and only become MORE prevalent as time goes on. Short-termism isn't just an issue with the FIA, or various other motorsport branches, it's the way of major business today. And the executives don't give a damn if they wreck the ship, so long as they get their "golden parachutes" before, or even after, the s--t hits the fan.

Short-term thinking is too prevalent in auto racing and business in general, but not everyone suffers from it. It's not an excuse. The WEC isn't some struggling start up. It was formed from a base of events that took a lot of cultivation. It's the WEC's own fault that they want to completely blow up the base.

Sorry, I'm rambling, and I'm a bit frustrated, but hopefully some of what I'm saying makes sense.

There's no need to feel sorry. I think a lot of American sports car fans have a sense of history and also have a sense of the stupidity of racing politics. Is there any chance for sanity in racing if nobody pushes for it?

Originally Posted by JAG

The ACO's vision for the sport is cutting edge technology AND a sportscar development ladder similar to that seen in single-seaters, sportscar racing is their business.

The ACO may have a vision, but it isn't what you are saying. The ACO's vision is amazingly the same as Tony George's vision: do all stupid things possible to grab as much power and money from imaginary boogymen as possible.

Originally Posted by JAG

NA is just one link in the chain, it's no more important than any other region

Uh, actually it is more important than most other regions. Unlike most other regions, we actually have an established fan base here. The fan base isn't automatically anti-WEC or anti-Europe. That is not the case at all. However, stupid decisionmaking will turn the fanbase off completely. There's a reason why massive crowds did not return to Indycar races after the merger.

Now the ACO is more than welcome to go after new markets, but what I cannot explain is the rationale that they have to flush down good markets in order to go after new markets that don't seem to have much chance of succeeding.

When the ALMS was top dog the LMS was considered a threat, not a regionaly ally, it's poor attendances, TV ratings and lack of factory support where mocked, there wasn't any thought of how both series could work together, learn and improve, it was a case of I'm alright Jack, get your own house in order.

Oh, just stop. This is complete nonsense and you know it. ALMS fans either A) did not care about the ELMS or B) said good for Europe and got on with their business without giving it a second thought. Stop trying to make us American fans look like we're always raging against Grand-Am, NASCAR, ELMS, and whatever else because it simply isn't the case. Unlike the WEC, I think most ALMS respect NASCAR's business sense even if we don't agree with it.

The WEC hasn't systematically picked apart the LMS/ALMS,

Yeah? Then explain Petit. Explain why the WEC wants to get their grubby little hands on Sebring.

the sport has strength in depth that could once only be dreamed of, and clear, long-term planning from the grass roots onwards, something which can't be said for many series who are stumbling from one crisis to another.

Privateers teams are as strong as they've ever been, throughout the classes, the equipment they have at their dispossal is improving, and the sport is attracting teams from other disciplines, be it touring cars or single-seaters.

Yeah, that era when Joest, Rondeau, Brun, and so forth could compete for overall wins was just a tragic period for privateers. Today all things are glorious though. The Judds, Zyteks, Lolas, and OAKs are the carriers of Le Mans victory glory.

[LeMans.pt]

with no capability to see the sport as a business, or how one move shapes the next.[/QUOTE]

Thank god you are not arrogant!

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I'm sorry that you take factual information, and warp it to suggest a me, me attitude. Fact; had the ALMS continued to provide reasonable ROI for Audi in particular, there never would have been a need for the WEC. Audi was the lead behind the push, because they couldn't justify the budget on LM itself, and the ALMS no longer provided the ROI.

Wishful thinking is hardly a fact… Audi is asking for a World Championship from the first moment they came to Le Mans!

It shows that we’re heading in the right direction. Audi has been involved in sports prototype racing and the Le Mans 24 Hours since 1999. Ever since then we have been energetically supporting the idea of a worldwide racing series for this particularly fascinating form of motorsport – always with the long-range aim of a world championship. After the ALMS and the LMS the creation of the Intercontinental Le Mans Cup by the ACO last year marked the first major step in this direction that is now seeing its consistent continuation in the FIA World Endurance championship. This leads to a further upgrading of our activities with the R18 TDI.

source: Audi USA

Here is a short list of things that are wrong with ILMC/WEC

1. In it for self-interest only, not for the ELMS or ALMS. 1.) Demanding Marketing rights for shared races 2.) Demanding exclusive TV rights for shared races.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Expansion beyond LMP1 - Why the need for LMP2? Was this because the manufacturer entrants demanded it?

Agree. LMP2 should be the backbone of both LMS and ALMS (and you wont agree with that…)

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Why the need for GT2?

GT manufacturers demanded according to ACO. Truth or not… i don't know.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Part deux. There are economies of scale with the production of LMP1 chassis. Now that there is no Euro market, and the ALMS is further devalued, the chances of a manufacture of chassis (Lola, Oreca, Courage, Zytek etc. ) making any money designing and building primarily for the WEC is next to zero. There simply will never be enough privateer entrants to support this cottage industry. So, look for the handful of privateers to end up in one or two chassis in the near future.

How many Lola, Oreca, Courage and Zytek chassis where sold to USA in the last… 10 years?
And how many to Europe? But yes, they can't depend solely from the WEC. But we will get to the main question…

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Part three - The ELMS/LMES/LMS/ELMS has been a privateer series, a replacement of FIA WCC, with GT.

The FIA what? You must be talking about FIA SCC. Teams weren't happy with the way that championship was going, and in the same year (2003) there was a one-off event — 1000km of Le Mans — organized by ACO, where it all became obvious… if the ACO was organizing a championship, Teams would leave the FIA SCC. And that was what happen.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The ALMS has been based as a manufacturer based series.

European and Asian manufacturers… and no wish to be the reining sportscar series in the world! No sir!!

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

With the North American landscape, it will not survive without some major change, most likely away from the the current ACO rules categories.

And it can start that changes by understating why Ford, General Motors, and Chrysler, north-american manufacturers, don't give a damn about the ALMS, with or without ACO rules.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

It is a simple reality. So, I know you don't care about North America, and the envy of our past success is having you quite gleeful now, but there is a cause and effect.

...and a two way mirror when you despise the decades of success of the old WEC.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Sportscar racing should have the goal of strengthening all of sportscar racing.

And that is done by having the pro teams and drivers in ALMS (and once a year at Le Mans), and all the Amateur teams and drivers in the LMS? Thats your "broad" vision of "all of sportscar", in opposite to our "european narrow vision"?

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

That we might have Peugeot, Audi, Toyota and Porsche involved for a short period of time, ignores the reality that these are marketing programs. You don't win, you won't stay involved. Not everybody is going to win. The World Sportscar Championship had factory built customer cars as their backbone. This will not happen here, not to the degree it did back then. Should a few manufacturers drop out, it's game over, not just for the WEC, but for Le Mans too, you'll see some very bleak years when this thing folds up, and believe me it will.

Thats the history of motorsport ANYWHERE (remind me why IMSA GT Championship ended? Why Porsche, Nissan, Mazda and Toyota walked away?)!

Audi, Porsche and Acura programs in the ALMS were also marketing programs. Why Peugeot never went to ALMS? No marketing there… Why BMW is still there and not at Le Mans? Because there is a market for them. In Europe, they don't have to be at Le Mans to sell cars… and BMW North America can pay the bills without the need of BMW AG. Audi North America paid for all Audi involvement in the ALMS. Porsche North America paid for Porsche involvement...

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Now Bahrain... Bahrain... please... This event is all about the FIA, control, F1 and money.

It's all about money that's for sure…

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Make a World Championship, that helps everyone.. makes the LMES strong, makes the ALMS stronger, makes LM stronger. Limit this to manufacturer LMP1 entries only. Ultimately what should have been done is one of two things. Either a three race series in each of Europe and North America, tied with LMES and ALMS, plus two in Asia... or the better plan is two in each continent, with the requirement to run full season in either the LMES or ALMS, your choice.

IMHO i also believe that WEC should be restricted no LMP1 (and GTE) but, if we had 2/3 shared races with the regional series in Europe and America, who will provide the rest of the field in Asia? If with shared races with LMS and ALMS with could have 50 entries, how much would we have in Asia? 20? 30??

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The question should be, how do we make the sport stronger everywhere, how do we make it more sustainable. You can't argue that the current WEC management is making the sport stronger everywhere, and you certainly cannot provide any argument about sustainability.

And you do? Where are them?

And here is the main question!!!!

Do you now the commercial aspect of the WEC? Do you know if team will be awarded with free transportation if they score points like in F1? Do you know if teams will have prize money for winning? Do you know if commercial wrights will be shared with the teams? Do you know how many sponsors will WEC have?

The truth is that no one know how the series will work. We don't know how much money they will have from sponsoring, and how it will be used/distributed. We do not know if a privateer, that scores some points through the year will have free transport next year, or a percentage of the commercial rights, or anything else that comes in real dollars or euros. We don't know nothing about it...

[JAG]

Some of you guys appear to be losing perspective, this is only motor racing, we want to see the best teams competing in a World Championship, we don't want to be sat here reminiscing about sportscar racing peaking twenty five years ago!

Step back for a few minutes, listen to what manufactuers, teams, drivers, journalists and commentators are saying about the formation of the WEC, take a look at what poistion the ALMS and LMS where in post 2008, ask yourselves do you want to see major factory efforts from Audi, Porsche, Toyota etc.

Oh, just stop. This is complete nonsense and you know it. ALMS fans either A) did not care about the ELMS or B) said good for Europe and got on with their business without giving it a second thought. Stop trying to make us American fans look like we're always raging against Grand-Am, NASCAR, ELMS, and whatever else because it simply isn't the case. Unlike the WEC, I think most ALMS respect NASCAR's business sense even if we don't agree with it.

I recall the hostile reception to the LMS, why, because it was the first step towards re-establishing the sport in Europe, and ultimately a World Championship.

As a keen follower of the LMS and ALMS the WEC was always the ultimate goal once the sport could sustain it. Clearly some ALMS fans are only concerned about their series, trouble is, unlike NASCAR, Indycar, Aussie V8's or GA, this sport is interconnected with international participants, the ALMS needs to work with the WEC, LMS, it's manufactuers and teams.

The alternative is to go it alone, cut the Le Mans ties, taking on the domestic market with a product that's distinct from the ACO and GA (and get there before US DTM does).

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

Some of you guys appear to be losing perspective, this is only motor racing, we want to see the best teams competing in a World Championship, we don't want to be sat here reminiscing about sportscar racing peaking twenty five years ago!

Who is reminiscing about 25 years ago? It's not us. It's seems the excuse for getting the FIA involved is that the FIA was involved 25 years ago.

Step back for a few minutes, listen to what manufactuers, teams, drivers, journalists and commentators are saying about the formation of the WEC,

Yeah, what are they saying? Are Audi and Peugeot gleaming about the WEC calendar? Are the privateers saying that the calendar is super great for privateers? As for the journalists that cover this sport, I've read what John Dagys wrote about the WEC. That's about 1/3rd of the sports car media and the coverage wasn't all rosy either. The drivers? Who cares? They can wax on about how great it would be to be a World Champion, but guess what, I doubt the guys who win the WTCC or FIA GT championships are any more pleased about being "World Champion" than they would have been with a championship with another title. It's not like they're going to become F1 champions all of a sudden.

take a look at what poistion the ALMS and LMS where in post 2008, ask yourselves do you want to see major factory efforts from Audi, Porsche, Toyota etc.

There's a lot of things I want to see. Stupid series politics is not one of them because anything positive that happens will eventually be squashed by stupid decisionmaking in the long run. As I said earlier, stupid decisions don't occur in a vacuum. See CART 1996-2003 as an example.

I recall the hostile reception to the LMS, why, because it was the first step towards re-establishing the sport in Europe, and ultimately a World Championship.

I honestly do not remember this mindset at all. You were on this forum back then and I was not so maybe things were said here, but I don't remember anyone thinking that back then. The LMS was one of many (false) starts of European programs. Nobody in the US really cared from my conversations.

the ALMS needs to work with the WEC, LMS, it's manufactuers and teams.

The ALMS seems willing to work with international partners. The ELMS too. The WEC, well, not so much. They are willing to work with F1 and NASCAR though. Some partner the ALMS has.

The alternative is to go it alone, cut the Le Mans ties, taking on the domestic market with a product that's distinct from the ACO and GA (and get there before US DTM does).

Hell yeah! Sign me up!

[Purist]

LeMans.pt, your case would be much stronger if you had more than one party referenced, and if that one party did not have the single largest vested interest in the whole enterprise.

Also, there's still no real assurance that this isn't going to be a short-term thing. Audi can't justify a full WEC program for long if the other efforts jump ship. There just is nothing to suggest this is built to last. And next to that, commercial rights and such don't really matter. That's all constrained by how much money and audience there is to work with from the outset. The only sums to watch out for would be the spikes in factory effort spending. And let's face it, the other stuff like rights monies and prize monies are going to be rather slim, as there's not the masses of money involved in sportscar that there is in F1 or NASCAR. And that level of media exposure for sportscar simply doesn't exist at present, and won't for some time to come, even in a best case scenario.

Between the manufacturers, the ACO, the FIA, and F1 (peripherally at least), I am NOT willing to make the leap of faith required to say that this is the best thing since sliced bread. That's just way too many big heads in the same room for me to give the benefit of the doubt, period.

Also, P2 is the second-tier class. The top American teams WANT to win (or at least have a chance to win) in the top category (P1), AT HOME. Therefore, making P2 the "top" class here is a non-starter by my reconning.

I doubt the WEC will draw Penske or Ganassi, or others of that calibre. They are interested in racing and winning here at home. I've seen ZERO indication that they would care to win Le Mans or any other overseas race. Additionally, such a team would NOT agree to put up such an effort on its own dime; it would be up to whichever factory to pay for the program itself.

As for factory/privateer issues, I don't know that a fully privateer series can survive in the States. Even World Challenge has factory-backed cars (Volvo, Cadillac, Acura, etc). We've already seen the once-mighty Trans-Am crumble without such support.

In a lot of cases, I think events and team bases are decidedly more concentrated geographically in Europe, which makes it easier for privateers there. Also, with more than 2.5x the population, there are just that many more "rich gentlemen" on the continent to pool amongst compared to what is available over here. Finally, while Europe has F1, that series is NOT concentrated solely in Europe by any means. Conversely, NASCAR is wholly concentrated here, so the effects in this much more closed system are felt more strongly; NASCAR sucks a good deal more of the air out of the room as it were.

Another problem I see is that if the factory teams are in their own world, and the privateers are in another, how do we know the quality of the privateer teams? How do we know if any of them might be fit to run a factory-supported car? If you keep the privateers in LMP2, the ability to discern these qualities becomes that much more difficult. And again, in a system like that, where do the independent front-runners come from when the factories finish with their binge and leave the sport for a spell?

Now, for those saying we shouldn't criticize a series that hasn't even run a race, I have a civil engineering analogy. Before you build a building, you have to lay the foundation. And before you can even do that, you often have to fill some portion of that hole in the ground with fill soil. If that fill soil is found to have the wrong properties, it can jeopardise the integrity of the entire structure, before the foundation has even been poured. This happened on the site of a new engineering building at a university I attended. I'm not sure that the foundation had even been poured at the site when the fill soil was found to have the wrong plasticity/elasticity, but in any case, this seemingly simple error set the project back by a year.

Given the known mismanagement, poor/stupid decisions already made, the alliances and likely alliances involved, and current, popular business practices, I've already got some serious concerns about the groundwork upon which this championship is supposed to be built.

BTW, just knowing that Speed would show some coverage of the WEC events would help with some of the anxiety and concern over the situation.

[JAG]

Le Mans and the World Sportscar Championship existed long before any current series, pretty much the entire history of the sport has been built on these two foundations.

Since the end of '92 there's been turmoil, false starts, and plenty of great racing, but in the end the ultimate goal was always to relaunch the one series with history and meaning, the World Championship. A World Championship was desireable fifty years ago, today it's as necessity given the growth of emerging markets and communication.

The rest of the sportscar scene is the bedrock the WEC is built upon, it's largely usurped touring cars as the national category of choice, it's seen as a viable route for single-seater teams, young drivers see their careers in the sport, the foundations are in place and will only improve with initiatives like the FLM prize fund and cost-capped P2.

I doubt the WEC will draw Penske or Ganassi, or others of that calibre. They are interested in racing and winning here at home. I've seen ZERO indication that they would care to win Le Mans or any other overseas race. Additionally, such a team would NOT agree to put up such an effort on its own dime; it would be up to whichever factory to pay for the program itself.

A Penske boss was quoted in Autosport saying Le Mans is unfinished business, they were in talks to run an R18, and may yet be in line to run the Porsche.

Finally, while Europe has F1, that series is NOT concentrated solely in Europe by any means. Conversely, NASCAR is wholly concentrated here, so the effects in this much more closed system are felt more strongly; NASCAR sucks a good deal more of the air out of the room as it were.

If an F1 race is staged in Spain, India or China it recieves identical coverage, if I want to follow top class sportscars, it makes no difference if they're racing at Silverstone, Road Atlanta or Bahrain, it's another race to be followed on TV, it's not as if any of us can get to more than a race or two live.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

Le Mans and the World Sportscar Championship existed long before any current series, pretty much the entire history of the sport has been built on these two foundations.

Since the end of '92 there's been turmoil, false starts, and plenty of great racing, but in the end the ultimate goal was always to relaunch the one series with history and meaning, the World Championship. A World Championship was desireable fifty years ago, today it's as necessity given the growth of emerging markets and communication.

The rest of the sportscar scene will settle into their own niche and look poised to benefit from the renewed interest in the sport, you'll only struggle if you are providing a product there's little demand for, or refuse to adapt to the new world.

From a historical perspective, the early days of the WSC linked several great international sports car races together. It would be similar to the 2010 ILMC. It was not a championship of one or two great races and a bunch of crap from anywhere offering moneybags.

That does not matter though. I don't think a world championship is a magic elixir, but that does not mean it is a bad idea. If there is enough interest to run one, fine, run one. That's not the point nor has it ever been the point. The point is that the world championship should not be organized in such an idiotic way that marginalizes itself and everything else in the sports car community at the same time.

Some people seem so eager to pop their cherry with a world championship that they are willing to accept whatever egocentric nonsense is doled out. That's flat out stupid and irresponsible. Stop ignoring all the stupid decisions just because "OHHH! WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP!! YEEE!" Championships of any kind may be part of sports car racing, but they are not sports car racing in totality. Don't blow up the whole sport just because you are so excited about one aspect of it. That's the ridiculous part of it all.

[Purist]

Actually, it's not just another race, because some get decidedly more coverage than others. For European rounds of equal length, the TV coverage can be 2-3 times as much as what the Asian rounds get. And that's from a European outlet. I don't know that the Zhuhai rounds are even covered by Chinese outlets at all. I have to use the internet to get any of the overseas races, apart from Le Mans itself.

And on TV, some tracks make much better impressions to the viewers than others. An attractive-looking track with a sizable crowd is most desirable, of course. You won't get that at a Tilkedrome. You especially won't get that at a Tilkedrome in the East, where they're charging ticket prices that are expensive by Western standards. And though China's wealth is growing, what is wealthy in China is NOT the same as wealthy in the West, and it takes the latter kind to be in a position to readily buy a Ferrari or Porsche or other Western performance car, like the ones that race in LM-type competition.

I understand the idea of going to emerging markets. However, it does no good to abandon an existing base and try to build another from scratch. Also, you can't just build it and expect them to come. It has to be a product the people there want, and that includes taking into account cultural appropriateness. You have to actually be able to reach enough people to have an impact. The product cannot just be a novelty, or it won't last, but rather, it has to be something your audience can identify with in some way, shape, or form.

There are a couple of great quotes that have come out of Apple that seem applicable here. One from Steve Jobs goes something like this, "People don't care about your brand. To build loyalty, you (your brand) has to show that you care about their (the people's) dreams." The other I think came from a Mr. Takahashi who was fairly high-up at Apple. This quote went simply, "Make evangelists, not sales."

You can't shove a product out in front of someone, and just expect him to take to it.

[kober]

Originally Posted by Purist

Going by population, rather than land area, those 12 races in the ALMS would translate to about 30 in Europe.

Originally Posted by Purist

Also, with more than 2.5x the population, there are just that many more "rich gentlemen" on the continent to pool amongst compared to what is available over here.

Not sure what's your source, but let me bring the following (2011) numbers from wikipedia:
- Europe (continent) = 738M vs. N.America (continent) = 528M - 1.4x the population,
- EU = 502M vs. US+CA = 347M - 1.45x.

Sorry to interrupt such a passionate debate.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Purist

I understand the idea of going to emerging markets. However, it does no good to abandon an existing base and try to build another from scratch. Also, you can't just build it and expect them to come.

Exactly. I'm guessing it is taught in Business 101 that trying to win over new clients is great, but the key is maintaining the clients you already have while finding new ones as well. The WEC apparently has no sense of that concept.

To your other point, even if people come to races, that does not mean they care about the racing everywhere else. CART/Champ Car had that problem. People would go to the street parades, but those fans never bothered to watch/follow CART the other 364 days of the year. Now I'm not saying that all of the people who go to Sebring and Petit care about the ALMS and/or international sports car racing, but the percentage is probably decent. So the WEC wants to write those fans off? Why?