[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[Purist]

Kober, anything other than the US and Canada is pointless in terms of this discussion. Mexico City isn't happening for the time being, and no other country down there, until you get to Brazil and Argentina, has a single circuit event close to what the FIA will require. Also, I know a number of the less-well-off European countries are going to have significantly under-reported populations, which could easily total in the millions, or even a few tens of millions, of unrecorded inhabitants.

AGD, my thought on that second point is that going to a race is likely to be a larger investment, compared to the total of what a person has, there in mainland Asia than in Japan, the US, Canada, or major European nations. So, for those who do go, it might be impetus to pay more attention to the sport as a whole. Then again, it will definitely be harder to get that initial base built since they have lesser means. That lower socio-economic status will also make it less likely for people in these newer markets to identify with a rather luxurious activity, which international racing is, at least until the standard of living in these places improves noticeably beyond where it is now for the masses in urban areas.

An urban-dwelling couple in China is doing pretty well to be making a combined $8,000 a year. The average is somewhere in the $6-7k range, which means most are actually making quite a bit less than that.

Now, though, it is being officially acknowledged that authorities are ill-equipped to keep a cap on growing social unrest linked to the worldwide economic slowdown hitting China, and if this is being publicly confirmed to international media, things, in some parts of the country at least, must not be going too well. Apart from public demonstrations, if South Korea is anything to go by, the number of factory workers doing themselves in has to be taking a toll as well throughout any region that's rapidly industrializing.

I suppose this is the key trade-off in markets with serious growth potential. That untapped potential can quickly be turned into a hell of a lot of instability.

To add to that, many of the wealthiest Chinese have moved to the States or major European countries, to the tune of 27% of them. Another 47% of them are seriously considering the move. So, China stands to lose nearly 3/4ths of its most successful businesspeople in very short order.

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by AGD

Exactly. I'm guessing it is taught in Business 101 that trying to win over new clients is great, but the key is maintaining the clients you already have while finding new ones as well. The WEC apparently has no sense of that concept.
......................

Is that right?
I think that the WEC has grasped the concept rather well, considering that the U.S. economy is still teetering on the edge. From the WEC's perspective, and keeping in mind who the major stakeholders are, where are they going to run their WORLD championship?........ on the WORLD stage, with some huge, fast growing economies or pander to the wants of the U.S. who presently, aren't the great marketplace they once were? You've still got one round you know, can't you be happy with that?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

Is that right?
I think that the WEC has grasped the concept rather well, considering that the U.S. economy is still teetering on the edge.

Oh, yes, all of us Americans are sitting in bread and soup lines. Wait, that's not us, that's the citizens of Bahrain because the government has taken their jobs away and kicked kids out of school just for believing in the wrong kind of Islam.

Sebring and Road Atlanta have been jam packed with paying fans the last few years. Perhaps the ACO should consider that when they tell us to go away so that they can attract all those wealthy camels. They could have easily allowed us to do our thing while they tried to woo camels, but no. The ACO wants to salt the earth so everything looks like Bahrain.

You've still got one round you know, can't you be happy with that?

We have one round and the ACO has made it clear that they want to steal that round from the ALMS in the future. If not, it sounds like they might want to kill off the ALMS through NASCAR so that they can get their grubby hands on Sebring and other venues. Of course, that's a stupid idea because NASCAR/ISC would beat them to the punch, but ACO stupidity is the whole reason why we are having this discussion.

How would fans in Australia feel if some grubby European came down there and said "yeah, we want Bathurst (or whatever) and if you don't give it to us, we'll kill you." And then consider that the grubby European was supposed to be your business partner who you have made a lot of money for over the last decade! Some partner, huh?

[Mal]

We all know all forms of racing have their golden periods and their weak times, even F1 could well enter a relative slump once Bernie goes. F1 is beginning to appear to be a bit of a dinosaur with too much flashy cash.

But you shouldn't forsake the goods times for fear of the bad times.

It is for these reasons that some manufacturers have turned away from F1 and have been lobbying for a World Sportscar Championship and also for the opportunity to go racing in an politically acceptable way and to use that to promote and develope sustainable technology. I think the WEC has come about as a result of the manufacturers requests rather than the brainchild of the ACO.

For the first time in decades manufacturers can go racing globally with money from their development and research departments rather than solely their marketing budgets and that is the big change that the WEC has brought about.

VW group is poised to become the largest car manufacturer in the world why? Not because of its success in North America - but because it has got its policy and product right in China, the far east and South America - the fastest growing markets in the world. This is why it wants a global championship and not a North American focused one and is why it feels it can race in sportscars with more than one brand.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Mal

It is for these reasons that some manufacturers have turned away from F1 and have been lobbying for a World Sportscar Championship and also for the opportunity to go racing in an politically acceptable way and to use that to promote and develope sustainable technology. I think the WEC has come about as a result of the manufacturers requests rather than the brainchild of the ACO.

For the first time in decades manufacturers can go racing globally with money from their development and research departments rather than solely their marketing budgets and that is the big change that the WEC has brought about.

Yes, the manufacturers want to promote social responsibility and green racing by racing in...Bahrain. Yep, oil and blood rich Bahrain. Oh, but if that isn't good enough, maybe there will be Russia soon enough!

As for R&D money going to fund racing teams, no. It's marketing money. They're marketing their "green" systems. It's as simple as that. As for the manufacturers wanting a world championship, yes, they want to race in some particular markets. China, Brazil, whatever, I'm not so sure if they knew they were getting Bahrain and all the other FIA mandated markets to go along with their desired markets.

VW group is poised to become the largest car manufacturer in the world why? Not because of its success in North America - but because it has got its policy and product right in China, the far east and South America - the fastest growing markets in the world. This is why it wants a global championship and not a North American focused one and is why it feels it can race in sportscars with more than one brand.

North America may not be VAG's highest priority right now, but anyone who thinks that they don't care about North America is simply not paying attention to reality. VW has set a goal to sell 800k cars a year by 2018 in the US. They only sold ~250k in 2010 so it is a high ambition. And it is not just some sort of empty hope either. They are now selling models designed for the US market (they suck BTW) and just finished building their first US manufacturing plant in the US in a long time in Chattanooga, Tennessee. BTW, that's not far at all from Atlanta. Porsche North America is based right in Atlanta. But, yeah, I'm sure Bahrain is really the place VAG wants to race. Screw Atlanta.

[KA]

Originally Posted by AGD

I honestly do not remember this mindset at all. You were on this forum back then and I was not so maybe things were said here, but I don't remember anyone thinking that back then. The LMS was one of many (false) starts of European programs. Nobody in the US really cared from my conversations.

I don't think I recall it being expressed on here, but certainly on other forums (for example ALMS, Speed TV) I do remember comments blaming a downturn in European entries at Sebring and PLM on the establishment of the LMS, and the ACO being accused of 'stabbing the ALMS in the back' by launching the LMS. I suspect that's the kind of thing JAG was talking about
I don't think it was very widespread, and I don't recall seeing anyone currently posting here expressing that kind of opinion, but as I remember, it was out there...

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by AGD

Oh, yes, all of us Americans are sitting in bread and soup lines. Wait, that's not us, that's the citizens of Bahrain because the government has taken their jobs away and kicked kids out of school just for believing in the wrong kind of Islam.
..............Perhaps the ACO should consider that when they tell us to go away so that they can attract all those wealthy camels. They could have easily allowed us to do our thing while they tried to woo camels, but no.
.............How would fans in Australia feel if some grubby European came down there and said "yeah, we want Bathurst (or whatever) and if you don't give it to us, we'll kill you." .................

Yeah.............OK..................
I really think that you have gotten to the point of with this.

[AGD]

Ok then, let's discuss some fresh news. Oh, there's some news out of Bahrain today:

A military court in Bahrain has sentenced three sportsmen to one year in prison for taking part in anti-regime demonstrations earlier in 2011, Press TV reports.

The three athletes include bodybuilder Tareq al-Fursani, a gold medalist in several Asian championships, Ali Saeed, a goalkeeper in the national soccer team, and Mohammed Hassan al-Dirazi, a member of the national basketball team.

The men were found guilty of illegal congregation and inciting hatred against the Manama regime.

More than sixty Bahrainis have already been tried for participating in anti-regime protests since the beginning of the uprising in February.

Dozens of people have been killed and thousands more have been arrested or fired from their jobs over the past months as part of the Saudi-backed crackdown on demonstrations in Bahrain.

Well, at least they weren't sentenced to death! I hope none of the foreign drivers, crew, or media try to spread some goodwill or they might get put in the big honkin' hole.

EDIT: Oh, and there is this apparently new video too. It's of the Bahraini police going Rodney King on some citizen. Good times to be had by all in Bahrain apparently. Too bad all of us in the US are so poor now that we are living in tubs like Diogenes.

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by AGD

Ok then, let's discuss some fresh news. Oh, there's some news out of Bahrain today:



Well, at least they weren't sentenced to death! I hope none of the foreign drivers, crew, or media try to spread some goodwill or they might get put in the big honkin' hole.

EDIT: Oh, and there is this apparently new video too. It's of the Bahraini police going Rodney King on some citizen. Good times to be had by all in Bahrain apparently. Too bad all of us in the US are so poor now that we are living in tubs like Diogenes.

I think we all understand the way you feel about Bahrain getting the round instead of PLM. The problem is, it´s been decided that they are going there. There´s nothing you can do about it anymore. The only way that the race will be cancelled if the next time that the F1 goes there and it´s still a mess. I think then the FIA and ACO will have a look at the round and say. Hey this is not the smartest thing, taking money just to hold a race instead of looking at the viability of the round.
That won´t be till april next year. So we can sit here and moan about Bahrain getting the spot on the calendar but that won´t help. Let´s start talking about the cars, potential entries etc etc.
Maybe it´s better to create a thread about the Bahrain round. That way we keep the bashing out of the threads that otherwise would be talking about racing.
(I don´t mean it personal, but I think a lot of people are just tired of the dead horse beating. I know Bahrain has a silly government and the human rights are not being respected. And it's ridiculous that PLM has been replaced by Bahrain, but that's the way it is)

[Mal]

Originally Posted by AGD

Yes, the manufacturers want to promote social responsibility and green racing by racing in...Bahrain. Yep, oil and blood rich Bahrain. Oh, but if that isn't good enough, maybe there will be Russia soon enough!

As for R&D money going to fund racing teams, no. It's marketing money. They're marketing their "green" systems. It's as simple as that. As for the manufacturers wanting a world championship, yes, they want to race in some particular markets. China, Brazil, whatever, I'm not so sure if they knew they were getting Bahrain and all the other FIA mandated markets to go along with their desired markets.



North America may not be VAG's highest priority right now, but anyone who thinks that they don't care about North America is simply not paying attention to reality. VW has set a goal to sell 800k cars a year by 2018 in the US. They only sold ~250k in 2010 so it is a high ambition. And it is not just some sort of empty hope either. They are now selling models designed for the US market (they suck BTW) and just finished building their first US manufacturing plant in the US in a long time in Chattanooga, Tennessee. BTW, that's not far at all from Atlanta. Porsche North America is based right in Atlanta. But, yeah, I'm sure Bahrain is really the place VAG wants to race. Screw Atlanta.

Where did I refer to Bahrain?

[trahsub]

DP

[trahsub]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

Yeah.............OK..................
I really think that you have gotten to the point of with this.

But have people gotten the point? Because what AGD is saying is simply 'common sense', something that the decision makers are clearly lacking. And unfortunately there are these anti-US sentiments that shine through in some of these posts where it seems the replacement of PLM is viewed as some type of victory for non-pats.

A track size to car ratio problem is a reasonable discussion point, but when I read things like "arrogant US citizens, unstable US economy (relatively speaking this is a ), US has to accept they are no longer the super power they once were, - why don't you folks take your sentiments to another forum if you really want to share your opinions about the US.

Again, we're not selling iphones here. Fast growing new economies - there is hardly any correlation between the growth some of these regions are experiencing and the proliferation of the race-car fan. Clearly we don't have many stats to work with, but based on reports from China's race in 2010 and 2011, it doesn't sound like attendance in either year was impressive, and one would expect (hope) a return after the inaugural year showing the new product would attract more fans.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AGD

Exactly. I'm guessing it is taught in Business 101 that trying to win over new clients is great, but the key is maintaining the clients you already have while finding new ones as well. The WEC apparently has no sense of that concept.

To your other point, even if people come to races, that does not mean they care about the racing everywhere else. CART/Champ Car had that problem. People would go to the street parades, but those fans never bothered to watch/follow CART the other 364 days of the year. Now I'm not saying that all of the people who go to Sebring and Petit care about the ALMS and/or international sports car racing, but the percentage is probably decent. So the WEC wants to write those fans off? Why?

The ALMS has upto a dozen races per season, quite obviously not every market can be covered by the WEC, that's why the ALMS exists.

What they can do is strategically target key markets, that means Europe with Silverstone, Spa and Le Mans, Asia with Fuji and China, the middle-east and NA, which currently means Brazil (one of the largest emerging markets in the automotive industry) and Sebring, far from writing off fans the WEC is taking in as wide a cross section as possible.

In future years, should the WEC expand, there could be an argument for three NA rounds, but Brazil's unlikely to be removed, and an argument could be made for a round at Daytona or Montreal, above PLM.

Whatever your thoughts on the WEC, arguments against world expansion will fall on deaf ears, every major international series, be it F1, WRC, WTCC, Moto GP, Superbikes, even strong national series like DTM and Aussie V8's, are expanding into new markets.

I'll take the word of what Purist says regarding China, but the fact still remains it's manufactuers largest market, if not today, then very soon, it's why both Peugeot and Audi said Zhuhai was the most important race of the year after Le Mans.

[trahsub]

Originally Posted by JAG

T
Whatever your thoughts on the WEC, arguments against world expansion will fall on deaf ears, every major international series, be it F1, WRC, WTCC, Moto GP, Superbikes, even strong national series like DTM and Aussie V8's, are expanding into new markets.

It a chicken and egg situation though. All of those series are much more established and have been for years, so it was deemed appropriate to expand into newer markets in hopes of [insert the 'what' here].

After one pseudo year of ILMC, in year 2 of the 'new' WC, we go super aggressive and jump into markets that have shown questionable ROI (and I mean the weighted average of ROI, not just a focus on $$$ return, health and humanity.

It's hard to see this other than a money motivated decision, plain and simple. I guess I'm naive to consider it doesn't revolve around money, of course it does. It's just disappointing.

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by trahsub

But have people gotten the point? ....... And unfortunately there are these anti-US sentiments that shine through in some of these posts where it seems the replacement of PLM is viewed as some type of victory for non-pats.
.................but when I read things like "arrogant US citizens, unstable US economy (relatively speaking this is a ), US has to accept they are no longer the super power they once were, - why don't you folks take your sentiments to another forum if you really want to share your opinions about the US.
..............Fast growing new economies - there is hardly any correlation between the growth some of these regions are experiencing and the proliferation of the race-car fan. Clearly we don't have many stats to work with, but based on reports from China's race in 2010 and 2011, it doesn't sound like attendance in either year was impressive, and one would expect (hope) a return after the inaugural year showing the new product would attract more fans.

The point is about the WEC being a world, repeat W-O-R-L-D series, and please don't pull out the anti U.S. card. Is it not possible to discuss this without some people developing an inferiority complex?
There is a correlation between the countries with developing economies and racing, but you're right, in that it hasn't got anything to do with the crowd attendances of two men and a dog. The players in this series couldn't really give a toss about who turns up on race day to watch, they are there to ultimately sell cars.

[TF110]

A WORLD championship needs to be run on WORLD class tracks as well. Is RA world class? Some may say Bahrain isn't but theres been how many LeMans style races there? It may be a great race. The country's moral issues aside I look forward to it and every round.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by TF110

Is RA world class?

Is that even a serious question, of course it is.

Originally Posted by Allan McNish

Road Atlanta is one of my favourite circuits in America. The circuit is technically challenging and from the layout naturally fast

[trahsub]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

The players in this series couldn't really give a toss about who turns up on race day to watch, they are there to ultimately sell cars.

Great, but when a country boasts an average income of less than $10,000 USD a year, are sales of Audis, BMWs, Ferraris, and Porsches going to experience growth? Maybe if this was a series with a GT6 class - Fiat 500s, Tata Nanos, and Smart Cars.

[Purist]

Worldwide expansion is fine, so long as it is done properly. And it should NOT come at the expense of existing, strong markets/events. There would be but a fraction of the complaints about Bahrain if it wasn't the same exact weekend as Petit.

Just because an economy is growing doesn't mean that the people there are yet to the mass, car-buying phase, and buying significant numbers of luxury and/or performance vehicles is a few steps further yet down the road from that. Le Mans racing isn't exactly about selling econoboxes to begin with. And the companies selling those in China don't have a GT program; Buick isn't associated with Le Mans at all. I say this because it takes more of an abstract thought process to link a prototype from Honda or Toyota with the road-going vehicle. A much smaller part of the populations in these mainland Asian countries are going to think that way than in more thoroughly developed parts of the world. Also, less development, and a much stronger living memory connection to an older way of life is going to make it decidedly less likely, and less culturally appropriate, to latch onto something as up-scale as international sportscar racing.

I'm fine with a round in China to see if a base can be formed, and Zhuhai is probably my first choice among the permanent circuits in that country. Part of me though, would like to see them try Macau, and after all, GT3s have proven capable of running there, so who knows. Yeah, I know, it won't happen. Still, that's the most established motor racing event in that part of the world by a decent stretch.

South Korea could probably support something. They have a more established and widely known motor industry. Their products are also more widely accepted.

India and Indonesia have some developing to do, I would say. They both have so many people in such a confined territory that they still have some very basic issues that need continued improvement. Sanitation, for one, would be right at the top of the list.

Japan makes sense for a number of clear reasons; they even had their own Group C championship for 10 years.

Brazil is probably more developed in some ways than a number of the Asian countries, and it's been working to modernize itself since the 1950s. Argentina could also be a good place to go back to with its development potential; they had World Championship races in both F1 and Sportscars going back to the 1950s.

Mexico isn't on the slate yet, and it concerns me more than the South American countries. Whereas places like Brazil and Argentina are a terminus for elicit goods and services, Mexico is in the middle. It is the crossroads for the drugs, guns, and money of the contraband trade. It sits next to their biggest customer (unfortunately, one thing I don't like about my country), and just about all the product involved has to go through some part of Mexico, whether it is taken to/from the States by land, air, or water. With the immigrants concentrated at their borders, the cartels also have a ready supply of forced labor.

The main developed area that hasn't garnered a consistent round is Australia. I know there are the time zone issues, but Japan and these other Asian markets have had F1 races for a handful, or more, of years now. Also, once Melbourne dumps F1, there might be a better opening for the WEC to try something there.

Africa is probably the biggest unknown. Morocco has expressed interest in international racing, and held the WTCC for a few seasons. Nigeria could make sense economically, but they have some real terrorism, sectarian (possibly), and environmental issues. Like we found with India, it would be nice if we knew that the food and water was safe to consume. There is South Africa, of course, and while Kyalami isn't what it was, I don't think it's any worse than Zhuhai, and it has more high-speed corners.

And before anyone mentions Russia again, I think it's kind of a slowly dying dinosaur, rather than an emerging market The have-nots are leaving to the tune of 500,000 or so a year (at least since 1997). The economy went in the dumper when the banking s--t hit the fan in 2008 (not that it was a stellar place to do business prior to that). Now, based on the latest elections, Putin's power-base is eroding significantly, which could well put paid to a lot of major projects in Russia; it certainly doesn't bode terribly well for F1's bid, with Vladimir being the face of its backing.

The Middle East can only appeal to the smaller volume makers of luxury and performance cars. There simply aren't enough people there to sell in bulk for a manufacturer like Toyota or Chevy. The ultra-rich aren't going to flock for econoboxes, or even ordinary passenger cars. And the everyday laborers in those territories probably can't even afford a car anyway.

There are still only so many places with the means and the will to start up and maintain a sport like this.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by trahsub

Great, but when a country boasts an average income of less than $10,000 USD a year, are sales of Audis, BMWs, Ferraris, and Porsches going to experience growth? Maybe if this was a series with a GT6 class - Fiat 500s, Tata Nanos, and Smart Cars.

The very reason these venues are chosen is becaue they're important markets for car sales, in the case of the middle-east, there's rapid growth and investment in all sports, much of it being invested abroad, your also seeing events like the Dubai 24hrs increasing in prominance with ever larger local entrants.

http://www.efinancialnews.com/story/...rcent-in-china

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...d-off-bmw.html

http://www.rolandberger.com/media/pr..._supplier.html

Twenty years ago a Europe dominated WSC and IMSA GTP served up 15-20 top class prototypes apiece, today both combined would struggle to reach such a number even in the best of times. Rather than being a trailblazer, the WEC is catching up with it's rivals, rivals who would love maunfactuers like Audi and Toyota, and the high quality privateers that fill the field.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

Twenty years ago a Europe dominated WSC and IMSA GTP served up 15-20 top class prototypes apiece, today both combined would struggle to reach such a number even in the best of times. Rather than being a trailblazer, the WEC is catching up with it's rivals, rivals who would love maunfactuers like Audi and Toyota, and the high quality privateers that fill the field.

Which really points to the errors in management by the ACO and ALMS. This is another error.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by trahsub

Maybe if this was a series with a GT6 class - Fiat 500s, Tata Nanos, and Smart Cars.

GT8 - The Ocho
Spec Bajaj Auto-rickshaw Supercup

Originally Posted by Purist

Worldwide expansion is fine, so long as it is done properly. And it should NOT come at the expense of existing, strong markets/events. There would be but a fraction of the complaints about Bahrain if it wasn't the same exact weekend as Petit.

Bingo. And I'm not beating a dead horse when I say that, I'm beating an idiotic horse. If someone wants to race in China, Russia, Somalia, Turks and Caicos, or whatever, fine. Go right ahead. Just don't kill great existing races (and series by proxy) with great fan support in the process. Especially don't kill them when the likelihood of the new races succeeding being more on the slim side. And don't for a second think that this type of idiotic thinking won't have an impact on European races. Have you seen F1 lately? Of course, if WEC fans are anything like F1 fans, they'll just thank their abuser for being violated and continue on their not-so-merry way.

As for Bahrain, they aren't racing there because they think it is a good market. They aren't racing there because manufacturers asked to race there. They're racing there because they are being paid to race there. That brings up a whole set of new questions about corruption. I saw something this week that the SEC is investigating the public funding of the Miami Marlins baseball stadium. Supposedly there may have been some bribes involved. That could open up a lot of investigations about sport facility financing in the US. Street races and other racing venues could be investigated under that. We know what Bernie has been accused of and we know that corruption is even more rampant in the 3rd world. So what about the WEC? They are apparently willing to do anything for a Euro or two. That's not what anyone wants to see regarding a sport. There's a legitimate way of building a sport by giving the fans a product they want to see and there is an illegitimate way of accepting bribes/money/BJs & other sexworkers/whatever from anyone with money and/or power at the expense of the fans. I know the rose-colored glasses crowd will say "no way!" just as there are American idiots who claim "street races always make money for their cities!" As far as the street race claim goes, we know what is reality and what is fiction. The same is true in other racing business areas as well.

To go back to what Purist was saying, just because a country has a lot of people buying cars does not mean that country/area has a car culture. To some, buying a car is like buying jock itch powder. If it works, it works. America has a car culture and there are many factors that led to it including stuff like racism and other things. Europe has one too and I can't really explain the reasons why they have one, but they do. What about these other countries? Do they have gearheads? Can gearheads be made there? If not, trying to advertise though racing there might be pointless. They could be better off advertising relevant features such as thief-proof wiper blades (which was a very real problem when I was visiting India) and cup holders.

[JAG]

AGD, people are the same the world over, motor racing was at the heart of advertising when the public in Europe and NA started buying cars on mass, why would it be any different elsewhere. You only need look at the rapidly developing middle-east motorsport scene to see there are plenty of gearheads, not to mention the sales of premium cars in these emerging markets.

Check out Bin Sulayem's collection!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOdaC...eature=related

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

AGD, people are the same the world over, motor racing was at the heart of advertising when the public in Europe and NA started buying cars on mass, why would it be any different elsewhere. You only need look at the rapidly developing middle-east motorsport scene to see there are plenty of gearheads, not to mention the sales of premium cars in these emerging markets.

Check out Bin Sulayem's collection!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOdaC...eature=related

First off, I doubt someone who can buy one (or a hundred) of everything is the demographic car companies market to. What we're talking about are middle managers the world over who might be able to buy a luxury and/or high performance car or two. Then there are other companies looking to sell Corollas, Cruzes, and Civics to everyone.

I can't speak for Europe, but the Big 3 was not exactly big in auto racing during the car buying booms around the World Wars. The first time one of the Big 3 won the Indy 500 was in 1965 and even then that was a Ford powered Lotus. GM did not win or even really get involved until the mid 80s and even then it was just a badged engine. Obviously Ford and GM sold a lot of cars before the mid 60s and 80s. If you want to go back to the late 1800s and say that racing helped prove that automobiles were a viable transportation option compared to other contemporary options, ok, but I think the virtues of automobiles have been proven in the last ~150 years throughout the world without the need for racing.

The thing about the World War and even Cold War eras was that speed and power were huge. Whether it be cars, planes, trains, spacecraft, whatever. Today, not so much. Actually, speed and power are not words that are used very often. We've reached speed caps on the skies, the public roads, and on race tracks. The need for speed will always be there for some, but I don't know if it is such a big deal now as it was in the past.

I've been reading auto industry insiders talk about dying car culture worldwide. Consider these quotes:

A survey last year of 1,700 Japanese in their 20s and 30s by the Nihon Keizai Shimbun, Japan's biggest business newspaper, discovered that only 25% of Japanese men in their 20s wanted a car, down from 48% in 2000.

http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/0...ay-no-to-cars/

Or what about these quotes from Nissan's Nissan's Product Strategy anad Product Planning head:

But he points to some discouraging global trends that don't bode well for the industry.

He notes that consumers in Japan are losing their mojo when it comes to cars. The population is aging, and younger drivers would rather spend their money on new cellphones and Internet access.

"Japan is increasingly not interested in new cars," he says.

The population in Europe is aging too, and Lane sees similar ennui spreading there. As car ownership becomes more expensive and cities increasingly impose congestion pricing on car usage in center cities, he sees car owners switching to mass transit for their daily commute, and then renting cars for longer trips.

"The U.S. is headed that way," he says. "The challenge for us, going forward, is a more interesting offer. Doing a better Sentra or an Altima isn't going to do it."

http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/14/news...ion=2008011409

So don't assume that people in Asia or South America will be interested in car culture just because people in Europe and NA are. Things are different. We may think that spending a day at the track is super awesome and our parents may have thought the same, but the future generation may rather spend their time on the Internet, playing games, or doing whatever no matter where people live. A lot of these developing countries are well-connected electronically and stuff like traffic congestion and stuff may hinder car culture even if they have to buy cars.

[Purist]

JAG, no, people are NOT the same the world over. Cultural values differ, and there are places where many of the concepts we consider second nature don't even exist, and the people in those places find these concepts incomprehensible when others try to explain them.

A prime example is that, in a large swathe of territory in Asia, including much of the Middle East, people understand things to exist by the rule of "limited good". That is, "For another person to gain something, I must lose something." Whatever type of good, service, product, what-have-you, it is NOT limitless. There is only a finite amount of anything. The only thing that changes is who has how much of the commodity in question. These are the terms in which people in those areas understand the world. Try to give them another way to look at things, and it just goes right over their heads; they simply don't get it.

And there are problems even in more developed areas. Making driving seemingly easy and effortless (through various electronic aids) has turned cars into just another appliance for many people. They simply don't get what could be so special about this item they use. A gearhead's explanation, and even an attempt at some sort of emotional connection, just goes right over their heads. I mean, they just want a car as a conveyance; they don't actually care about it. They think driving is, has been, and should be easy and effortless. It boggles their minds why anyone would ever want it to be otherwise. It is totally beyond them why anyone would ever do it for hours on end, especially when they're on a fixed, circuitous course that, in their minds, doesn't go anywhere.

BTW, it wasn't possible for racing to really be a sport of the masses for quite some time after the automobile initially came out. Auto racing was NOT the spectacle, watched by large audiences, that we think of today, until after World War II. It took decades to develop enough of a middle class for cars to become affordable to the masses. You know what the meaning of Volkswagen is, literally, right? Well, that didn't come along until 1934 or so, which is ~50 years after the first motorized carriages appeared. And actual production was delayed until after the War.

So, it takes time for enough of a population to become car-owners that you have the potential for an expansive car culture, not just a few rich people with very nice, exclusive collections. And it is probably harder to start a car culture now, because there is less to make the car seem special in a way that people will connect with cars, rather than just thinking of them as another appliance to be used. There also used to be greater emphasis on the importance of a car, because, even for a while after World War II, if a family had a car, they only had ONE car.

And there is one, final, key obstacle to consider. As a society/country becomes more "developed", working with one's hands, as one would do as a gearhead, becomes less and less desirable. Just look at how manual labor is rewarded, and how that has changed over the years, here in the US and in other "advanced" nations.

My dad is an accomplished aerospace engineer. During college, he worked as a sports car and racing car mechanic at a local shop. As a student back then, in the '70s, he gave some presentations to engineering and business types. We joke about it now, but he may well have been turned down for some opportunities because, "he had a little grease under his fingernails".

My point is, the way you here plenty of people talk now, working with your hands is looked down upon in the "developed" world. Too many people don't have even the slightest clue how arduous real, manual labor is (like digging a ditch), and then they go on to consider it beneath them to do such work.

FAG, the dynamics at work are NOT as simple or straightforward as you might like to think. I've learned this for myself. Please don't try to tell me otherwise when I know better.