[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[JAG]

Agree you have to be careful not to dilute things with numerous classes, then again there will only be three classes of car P1, P2 and GTE. Can't see much point making the distinction between petrol and diesel any longer, while GTE AM/Pro is only making official what many teams already did, in fact it may encourage a few more GTE's.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

If you want to look at things logically, it's GA that is picking apart the ALMS step by step under everyones nose. The ALMS of 2009 onwards bares little resemblence to the forthcoming WEC, PLM being in or out isn't a deciding factor, and the future of Sebring and joint races is in the hands of the ALMS.

How is Grand-Am picking apart the ALMS exactly? Grand-Am is picking up a little bit of steam in that they are trying to make their DPs a little better looking. Meanwhile, the ACO-ALMS is going in the other direction. Other than that, what's new? Risi might go to Grand-Am, but I'm not really sure if that gives Grand-Am any increases in the fan department.

And how is the ALMS of 2009 all that different from the WEC of 2012? The ALMS of 2009 had a far superior grid of GT2/GTE cars than the WEC had. The 2009 ALMS had 2 factory prototypes that won everything. If the ILMC has any similarity to the WEC, 2 factory prototypes will win everything in the WEC as well with Le Mans being the possible exception. The 2009 ALMS had a bunch of privateer prototypes that nobody cared about. The same is true of the WEC.

I don't see much that guarantees that the WEC will get any more than the 33 viewers who were logged onto the ACO Dailymotion stream to watch ILMC China.

But sub classes shouldn't be dismissed, in the case of the GTE field that's a production option for manufactuers, something the Group C WSC never established

So far, the WEC has not established much in the GTE realm either. Well, they did establish that they will provide the GTE with no TV coverage. We saw what BMW thought about that. Smooth move, ACO.

Originally Posted by Acid09

This is exactly what I mean. The opposition on here comes mostly from American fans who feel intimated by the ACO and somehow blame them for the problems of American sports car racing.

American fans see the problems most clearly. Obviously, the question of why the ALMS is still doing business with the ACO is one of those reasons. The Road Atlanta issue would be another. The Sebring issue is another on top of that. Then there is the factor that American fans are more pragmatic in dealing with series political issues than European fans. We're not going to put up with nonsense.

The ALMS build the profile of Le Mans? Where? In the US maybe! In Europe the series was barely visible and had little effect on the promotion of Le Mans.

That's exactly the point. Is the US market not relevant? I would think that having increased popularity in a wealthy and populous country with a large auto industry and a large amount of racing fans would be a good thing.

Aside from the fans, I would think that having teams from the US competing and winning would enhance the international flavor of Le Mans. Maybe I'm wrong about that though. Perhaps only having European teams enhances the international flavor of Le Mans.

I still have to hear anything about the horrible management errors that are setting this series up to fail etc.

Uhh...↴

In the end, we it always goes back to the Bahrain/PLM issue, that's the reason you people despise the WEC because you apparently feel snubbed by it.

Yeah, crapping on a race that has a lot of passionate fans of the ACO type of racing in order to chase money bags in a country that was recently under martial law (and may be under it soon again) is the best possible example of horrible management errors that are setting up the WEC for failure. It's not just Americans who feel that way either. There have been European fans who said it was an absolutely unjustifiable decision as well.

Do we feel snubbed about it? Well, why wouldn't we be? Why is the ALMS associating themselves with a organization that is willing and wanting to choke the ALMS to death? It's not about there being a combo race, we know about that. It's about embracing PLM and what it means to the world of Le Mans racing. Maybe it only means something to American fans, but that's a big chunk of the fans of this type of racing. A competent organization would have embraced the promotional power of an established series like the ALMS. No, not the ACO. They seemingly want to eliminate their partner, the ALMS, by taking Sebring and by hooking up with ISC if Sebring/Panoz does not crack. And how does that help anything? ISC/NASCAR wants to kill the ALMS and the WEC.

Of course, if the ACO is so willing to take a dump on one group of established fans, what makes you think they won't do it to others as well if some other dictatorship where there are no fans offers a bag of money?

That's just one thing. There are other issues as well. The aforementioned propensity to focus on just the factory P1s is another issue. Hitting the cars with the ugly stick another. Constantly changing rules and political BoP another. So on and so forth.

Originally Posted by Félix

Remember, we're fans of RACING.

What, are you crazy? We're supposed to be fans of racing series, not the racing itself. You must have missed reeducation camp! Now put on your Champ Car..err...ACO battle fatigues and gas mask with rose-tinted goggles and get to class! Chop-chop!

[Speed-King]

How is Grand-Am picking apart the ALMS exactly? Grand-Am is picking up a little bit of steam in that they are trying to make their DPs a little better looking. Meanwhile, the ACO-ALMS is going in the other direction. Other than that, what's new? Risi might go to Grand-Am, but I'm not really sure if that gives Grand-Am any increases in the fan department.

Maybe just an anectode without much significance, but I overheard (roughly) this conversation during last Sunday's Giants vs Cowboys game in a sportsbar in Charleston, SC.

[Corvette commercial comes on - you know that hilarious "we had to detune our car by 160bhp to make it fair for Porsche and Ferrari" one]
Guy1: Nice car!
Guy2: Have you seen the new Vette for the Rolex series? I'd love to have one of those!
Guy1: Ah, yeah, that thing is amazing.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Maybe just an anectode without much significance, but I overheard (roughly) this conversation during last Sunday's Giants vs Cowboys game in a sportsbar in Charleston, SC.

[Corvette commercial comes on - you know that hilarious "we had to detune our car by 160bhp to make it fair for Porsche and Ferrari" one]
Guy1: Nice car!
Guy2: Have you seen the new Vette for the Rolex series? I'd love to have one of those!
Guy1: Ah, yeah, that thing is amazing.

Ha. What's funny (or sad) is that the Cowboys-Giants game got a 17.1 overnight TV rating. That's for a regular season game. That certainly shames the IRL, ALMS, and Grand-Am sub-1.0 ratings, that's for damn sure. Even some of NASCAR's ratings seem paltry compared to that.

I watched the game too and I saw that commercial. I wince and laugh at the same time whenever I see that commercial. I feel that GM should be forced to quote the IMSA/ACO rulebook in that ad just to explain the truth of the matter!

Anyway, I'm not sure if your anecdote means anything, but I certainly think that looks matter when it comes to racing cars. It's amazing that we're at a point where a DP looks better than an LMP. Some may say that looks don't matter, but I'm not so sure.

[Articus]

I think the issue is its not actually a Vette right? Are they not Riley and Dallara chassis covered with Vette bodywork? Quick question-what parts under the body work were developed by GM?

[JAG]

Asian developments.

http://www.lemans.org/en/news/The_AC...medium=twitter

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Frankly, I doubt Sebring becomes a WEC only round. The WEC if it wishes to continue to race in North America, will have to find their own round.

I agree with this. I think Sebring will be a WEC event in 2012 only afterwards the WEC will go to Austin or somewhere else. I have no idea why though as the WEC's only tie to the US market is via the ALMS and Sebring.

Originally Posted by Acid09

Is it the ACO's fault that the American economy is in the crapper? No. Is it the ACO's fault that the ALMS isn't able to negotiate a proper TV deal? No.

I wonder how that WEC tv deal in the US is going? Oh yeah, there isn't one and will never be one.

Originally Posted by The Badger

Fine , then let them come up with their own series , if they can

I agree , its not nice to get screwed , but the ACO are looking after #1 first , and that is their 24 hour race , and you cant blame them for that . They did get screwed by the Fia in 1992 , and havent forgotten that , 29 entries with 19 finishers .

The WEC reduces the importance of Le Mans, particularly to the manufacturers. It is now just another round to them and their accountants.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

It will take some time, but this is going to fold up like a cheap deck of cards at some point, leaving things in disarray, that will take years to recover from.

I don't know if you're right, but I hope so. I say it's a smoldering dumpster fire by 2015.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

The WEC reduces the importance of Le Mans, particularly to the manufacturers. It is now just another round to them and their accountants.

I don't agree with this statement, Le Mans will continue to be the crown jewel. You can do as Audi did this year, and only win LM, and it will be considered a success. Conversely, Peugeot swept the balance of the schedule, but didn't win LM. A few years from now, that ILMC championship will be all but meaningless, but that LM will will stand up forever. (See Mercedes FIA GT championships, vs. failure at LM)

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

The WEC reduces the importance of Le Mans, particularly to the manufacturers. It is now just another round to them and their accountants.

You cannot be serious with that comment !?!?!?

The only reason the WEC grid is looking so healthy is that teams enter to get a guaranteed position for the race , as well as being an international championship .

The jewel of the crown is still , and always will be Le Mans . A championship means nothing to manufacturers , compared to the bragging rights of that big elusive win .

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I don't agree with this statement, Le Mans will continue to be the crown jewel. You can do as Audi did this year, and only win LM, and it will be considered a success. Conversely, Peugeot swept the balance of the schedule, but didn't win LM. A few years from now, that ILMC championship will be all but meaningless, but that LM will will stand up forever. (See Mercedes FIA GT championships, vs. failure at LM)

Maybe it is too early for that comment, but depending on the success of the WEC it has the potential. What ends up being more important, a single race or a championship? F1 and Nascar are all about the championships as just a Monaco or Daytona win do not equal success. Indycar still holds on to the 500 and the race win is much more important to the championship.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by The Badger

You cannot be serious with that comment !?!?!?

The only reason the WEC grid is looking so healthy is that teams enter to get a guaranteed position for the race , as well as being an international championship .

The jewel of the crown is still , and always will be Le Mans . A championship means nothing to manufacturers , compared to the bragging rights of that big elusive win .

Totally serious. Dr. Ulrich understands the importance of LM but what about the Controller? Or the board? Do they know or care? I don't know.

[The Badger]

Yaknow , manufacturers build cars , just for Le Mans . The Toyota TS-020 only ever did one race outside of Le Mans , and that was to showcase their chassis to a home crowd ..... Bentley , did 4 races with their car over 3 years , 3 Le mans and 1 Sebring .

Le Mans , there is no bigger event that this , and even to say its the biggest race in the world , bigger than Indy or Monaco , and thats not me who says that , its the teams , drivers and owners , even world champions say it once they have been there .

So , your statement above ..... I dont quite understand how you can come out with something like this .

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Acid09

No it won't, you`re just assuming that it will fail because other series have failed before. I see absolutely no basis or proof for that and you can't really name any management errors but the Bahrain-situation either.

The main failure is that they've weakened the future for both the ALMS, and ELMS.... and now they propose to revisit the Asian Le Mans Series, which has shown there is no interest two times already.

As JAG has argued, in order to guarantee a LM entry, you really do need to be in the WEC now, not the ELMS, or ALMS, unless you are confident of winning the autobids. Add in the AsLMS, and there really will not be any at large bids in the future. So, the strongest and most professional teams, not to mention the factories will be focusing on the WEC from now on.

This lowers the value of participation in the ELMS and ALMS, lowers the quality of the entry, lowers the spectator participation, lowers the value to the tracks, and makes it harder for entries to procure sponsorship, except those who fund it out of pocket, or from their own companies. I think there is some valid concern as to whether the ELMS will even survive out of this a few years out. The ALMS certainly has it's own internal challenges, but the WEC certainly did them no favours either.

In addition, while the business of building LMP1 cars was tenuous at best, there really isn't any room left for the cottage industry to supply bespoken LMP1 cars. This will in time reduce the available chassis to any potential future privateer entrants, and weakens the backbone of the sport.

Sports car racing had a working world championship for decades until Ecclestone ruined it. Saying that a world championship will somehow automatically mess things up has no basis.

Right.. it got messed up when the FIA got involved.... hmmm

I really don't understand your point of view at all. You seem convinced that it will fail just because... There's absolutely nothing that suggests that this championship can't be a success. Two of the manufacturers involved are being active in the sport for years now, lots of new ones are lining up. Things couldn't be brighter right now but somehow you can't enjoy it because you`re afraid *something* will happen... it's paranoia if you ask me.

What exactly would have been the right thing to do exactly? I can't recall you explaining that once apart from the "It should be LMP1 only" idea...which is horrible to be honest. The last thing this championship needs is to start half-assed.

Lot's of new ones lining up? Ok, so it is possible that we could have Porsche, Toyota, Peugeot and Audi in LMP1 for a short period of time. Outside of that... rumours with nothing behind them. Peugeot is in some financial difficulty, and will pull the plug if it suits them. Audi vs. Porsche within VAG will be interesting, and Toyota has a long history of pulling out after two to three years wherever they compete. I don't value current short-term interest, over long-term viability.

So, the inclusion of LMP2, GTE-Pro (that no major manufacturers have any interest in) and GTE-Am add validity to the concept? Really? The WEC is a global manufacturers championship, built to provide LMP1 manufacturers a world championship. How those races are organized, or within which platform is completely irrelevant. All that matters with the WEC, is what happens in LMP1, the rest is just filler. So yes, endorsing a World Endurance Championship, with just LMP1 is a good idea in my opinion. You achieve exactly the same thing you are now, without weakening either the ELMS, ALMS, or future AsLMS. In fact, you strengthen all of the above. With approximately 10 LMP1's, it is improbable that have any issues with maximum entries, so you continue to run at the best venues, such as Spa, Silverstone, PLM, Sebring.... I mean really look at the ELMS schedule, Brno, Zolder, Donington... it's just a shame that it's been put down so low, but I suppose people just don't care anymore for it's state, because there is a "World Championship".

So, a LMP1 championship only... but what format? Well it's simple, you want entry to the WEC, and LM, you must enter cars into one of the regional championships. You want to enter four cars at LM, you must enter four cars at regional championships.

In the end, you've strengthened the regional championships, AND achieved your World Championship, in the only class that really matters, or anybody cares about, from the WEC perspective. The point is, either you stengthen the overall state of the sport, you do something neutral, or you weaken it. Find me someone who wants to argue that the ELMS and ALMS will be stronger now, with the inception of the WEC? Let's look beyond just LMP1 now.... what exactly happens should the ELMS and/or the ALMS fail to continue? In either case, what you end up with is a smaller market to sell cars. If the market shrinks too much, you end up with a situation where builders simply won't build the cars. Corvette goes away, LMP2 builders go away, and Ferrari becomes a question mark. The other point here, is that the future of the WEC in North America has to be tenuous at best. Where are they going to run in 2013? Austin, Homestead, Sears Point? The World Endurance Challenge has no visibility in North America anyway, and if it isn't run at Sebring, or in conjunction with the ALMS, the fan turnout is going to be very poor. The poor turnout will likely result in leaving North America shortly, as was the case for most last 20 years of the prior Group C, manufacturers etc...

Like I've stated, you can choose to strengthen things, or weaken them... this weakens the state of Sportscar racing, at least in the ACO format. The world has changed a great deal in the last two decades, since there was last a World Championship, and corporate boards are more fickle, and corporate sponsorship is very difficult now. While I fully endorse the idea of having one, I believe it should have been done to strengthen the sport as a whole, and this fails to achieve that. It isn't that I think they've made a bunch of errors, more that the whole concept is fatally flawed. They've built a really nice table, but cut the legs out from under it.


So yes, this should have been a LMP1 only championship, and really that is the only part of this series anybody cares about, or that the main press will pay any attention to. What else was there doesn't matter to anybody...

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Yaknow , manufacturers build cars , just for Le Mans . The Toyota TS-020 only ever did one race outside of Le Mans , and that was to showcase their chassis to a home crowd ..... Bentley , did 4 races with their car over 3 years , 3 Le mans and 1 Sebring .

Le Mans , there is no bigger event that this , and even to say its the biggest race in the world , bigger than Indy or Monaco , and thats not me who says that , its the teams , drivers and owners , even world champions say it once they have been there .

So , your statement above ..... I dont quite understand how you can come out with something like this .

Biggest event based upon what? Attendance? Although Indy is struggling now, I think they would have a bone to pick with that. TV viewership? F1 certainly rules in this area. In my part of the world no one has heard of Le Mans. To quote the Bandit, “When you tell somebody something, it depends on what part of the country you're standing in as to just how dumb you are”.

My point was leading to this. Championships that are are organized around a single "crown jewel" event don't work. I'm looking at Indy when I make that comment. Not only do we have a struggling open wheel series the event itself is now a shadow of its former self.

[TF110]

300,000 people go to LeMans I heard, perhaps more. It's shown and known by everyone. It's THE biggest race of the year. If you think otherwise something is wrong. WEC hasn't begun, yet people go and write it off. Maybe these fortune tellers can predict who'll win LM as well?

[Thaw Daggerslash]

Originally Posted by TF110

Maybe these fortune tellers can predict who'll win LM as well?

Easy. Peugeot or Audi. Again.

300,000? Is that people combined over the week, or just for the Saturday and Sunday? Because the British Grand Prix got 315,000 combined for Friday, Saturday and Sunday last year.

I'm ready to give WEC a chance. My only issue with the ACO is the crap equality between the diesel and petrol cars over the last however many years it has been.

Don't get me wrong, Le Mans has been an epic race for the last few years with the huge battles between Audi and Peugeot, but just for once I'd like to see a completely wide open race between multiple teams, petrol and diesel. Sure the manufacturers may still win because they have the money and experience - but it'd be nice for other teams like Rebellion and Pescarolo and others to at least have a mathematical chance of victory.

In the ILMC last year, unless something completely freakish happens, you might as well have given the top three trophies out to Audi and Peugeot before the race had even begun. The only times anyone else has had a chance are the rare times neither team has bothered to turn up.

The WEC needs to create a big scene in 2012 to show that it has arrived and to make people aware of its existence. Constant Peugeot and Audi battles are all well and good for the loyal sportscar fans, but I doubt it'd do much to attract new audiences.

I hear there's been some attempt to level the playing field for 2012, but not having a particular engineering mind, I'm not sure if it'll do much. I've heard from some in the know that it won't do too much, which is a shame.

I guess in a way the FIA/ACO have their hands tied on equality, because if they do anything too drastic both Audi and Peugeot will get ****y-pants over the rules and quit like any manufacturer does when the rules don't suit them completely.

See? Manufacturers suck.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by TF110

300,000 people go to LeMans I heard, perhaps more. It's shown and known by everyone. It's THE biggest race of the year. If you think otherwise something is wrong. WEC hasn't begun, yet people go and write it off. Maybe these fortune tellers can predict who'll win LM as well?

Le Mans is the biggest sportscar race of the year for sure. I've always heard that the weeks attendance is 250k at Le Mans. Indy seats that many and has capacity for many more, so there is still an argument there. F1 ratings beat the snot out of Le Mans. As I said before, maybe 1% of the population of North America has heard of Le Mans. I suspect the same is true anywhere outside of Europe. I love sportscar racing and Le Mans, but it is not the biggest race in the world... and nothing is wrong.

My point remains the same. Look to Indy, learn from those mistakes and keep LM out of the WEC. Oh and Puegeot will win LM this year in their swan song.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Le Mans is the biggest sportscar race of the year for sure. I've always heard that the weeks attendance is 250k at Le Mans. Indy seats that many and has capacity for many more, so there is still an argument there. F1 ratings beat the snot out of Le Mans. As I said before, maybe 1% of the population of North America has heard of Le Mans. I suspect the same is true anywhere outside of Europe. I love sportscar racing and Le Mans, but it is not the biggest race in the world... and nothing is wrong.

My point remains the same. Look to Indy, learn from those mistakes and keep LM out of the WEC. Oh and Puegeot will win LM this year in their swan song.

I'm sorry. But thats not true.
Have you anything to support that claim!? (that there is only 1% outside Europe knowing what Le Mans is)
If only 1% of the world knew what Le Mans is, then there would be no way that the ACO could sell the TV rights the world over.
We wouldn't see manufactures like Corvette, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda and so on showing an interest in the event.

Claiming that Le Mans is the biggest single motoring event in the world is fair. Yes it's hard to prove, but it's harder to falsify.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by CTD

I'm sorry. But thats not true.
Have you anything to support that claim!? (that there is only 1% outside Europe knowing what Le Mans is)
If only 1% of the world knew what Le Mans is, then there would be no way that the ACO could sell the TV rights the world over.
We wouldn't see manufactures like Corvette, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda and so on showing an interest in the event.

Claiming that Le Mans is the biggest single motoring event in the world is fair. Yes it's hard to prove, but it's harder to falsify.

I'm obviously speaking in broad generalizations. But the largest "single day" attended motoring event in the world is Indy... as crappy as it has become, that is still true. Outside of the World Cup the most viewed sporting event(s) on television is Formula One (pick a race, it doesn't matter). One can argue that it is easier to disprove than prove.

[JAG]

Many of the arguments against the WEC would be valid in 2008, four years later the major manufatuers have long since left the regional series, the worry today is those left departing for GA or the DTM. The concern about the WEC being of interest only to manufactuers appears rooted in the fact few NA teams/drivers compete internationally, yet a NA based ALMS/Indycar season is just as arduous as a World Championship.

but just for once I'd like to see a completely wide open race between multiple teams, petrol and diesel.

With factory petrol and diesel teams there's little excuse to favour one fuel type, but wide open racing doesn't tend to happen anywhere when the stakes are high.

you might as well have given the top three trophies out to Audi and Peugeot before the race had even begun. The only times anyone else has had a chance are the rare times neither team has bothered to turn up.

You could say the same about most series in recent memory, whether it's Sauber Mercedes in the WSC, NPT Nissan in IMSA GTP or Audi's dominance with the R8, Audi vs Peugeot is one more potential winner than many races.

The WEC needs to create a big scene in 2012 to show that it has arrived and to make people aware of its existence.

Being aligned to Le Mans gives it instant profile (to a degree) but more importantly a sound base so you can plan longer term.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

300,000 people go to LeMans I heard, perhaps more. It's shown and known by everyone. It's THE biggest race of the year. If you think otherwise something is wrong.

Of course I agree that it is the single best and most important sporting event of the year, but I've never personally met anyone else in Finland who actually knows the race other than maybe, just maybe by the name.

[Simmi]

I love Le Mans to bits but it isn't the biggest race in the world. But no one says it has to be.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Simmi

I love Le Mans to bits but it isn't the biggest race in the world. But no one says it has to be.

It's definitely the biggest road race in the world, I guess Indy is bigger, even though I don't understand the fascination at all.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash

Don't get me wrong, Le Mans has been an epic race for the last few years with the huge battles between Audi and Peugeot, but just for once I'd like to see a completely wide open race between multiple teams, petrol and diesel. Sure the manufacturers may still win because they have the money and experience - but it'd be nice for other teams like Rebellion and Pescarolo and others to at least have a mathematical chance of victory.

Sorry but the day Rebellion & Pescarolo can keep up with Audi & Peugeot is the day the equality has done horribly wrong.

This has nothing to do with diesel or petrol but budgets. Privateers will never have the same resources as the big works entries and they only manage to snatch wins from them if things go horribly wrong.