'10 LMS Finalé • Silverstone • '10 ILMC Round 1

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Audi has shown that they are now as fast as Peugeot.

When exactly? Certainly not at Le Mans and not this weekend either.

McNish was merely holding up Davidson and was already under pressure from Lapierre when he hit problems. They had the pole but only because Peugeot didn't get a clean run in.

[MihokS5]

I think both cars are ALMOST equal and often go back and forth on fast times depending on track conditions. However I do think the Peugeot still has the speed advantage and still has the upper hand in the series. I will be at PLM though cheering on Audi and I hope they can strike back

[FordCosworthPanoz]

LMP1 battle was a yawner after McNish and the #7 Audi was out, but other than that a pretty good race. Congrats to both the factory and ORECA Peugeots. Road Atlanta is a good track for Audi and I have a feeling that will be Audi's best shot to beat Peugeot. China should be an interesting one also, with the fact that neither Audi and Peugeot ever raced at Zhuhai.

[chernaudi]

Peugeot certinaly were struggling trying to keep it on the island most of the weekend, and you can't use the excuse of rain because the Pugs were just as fast in mixed conditions. Davidson spun in practice twice and Nic spun in qualifying.

Minsassian's fastest lap all weekend was the low 1:43 that he ran in P2, which was his and Peugeot's fastest ideal lap all weekend. McNish's pole time wasn't quite that fast, but his ideal lap was still faster than Nic's ideal lap.

If the #7 didn't retire, we probably would've seen a much closer race and that car didn't get to put in a fast lap during the race because of that. Also, Timo is slower than Dindo, and the #8 probably ran a compromised set up compared to the #7, and Romain was always a bit faster in my book anyways.

Peugeot better look out, because once Audi has a problem like the driveshaft happen, it usually never happens again. Besides, we don't know what Davidson would've done if Allan would've applied pressue.

PLM will be tough for Peugeot, because Audi will have their "Dreamteam" in one car, and their fastest team at Le Mans in the other, both teams will have the weekend before hand to test, and much of the week for practice. Also, IMSA will be using their pit rules, so advantage Audi on that, too.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

PLM will be tough for Peugeot, because Audi will have their "Dreamteam" in one car, and their fastest team at Le Mans in the other, both teams will have the weekend before hand to test, and much of the week for practice. Also, IMSA will be using their pit rules, so advantage Audi on that, too.

Whatever helps you sleep at night...I´m looking forward to your "Audi wil fight back at Zhuhai" speech after the PLM then.

You were talking about how Peugeot is struggling all weekend, even though that was clearly not the case. Just because they spun in practice and qualifying? That happens when you run near the limit.

The car looked like it's on rails when Davidson hunted down McNish, I certainly saw no struggle there. And how should McNish have "applied pressure"? Davidson was already gone and Lapierre was coming when he stopped... Peugeot was faster in the pits too...so I fail to see where the pressure would have come from.

Audi can thank Peugeot on their knees for their stupid decision to use the titanium rods at Le Mans just to save a couple of hundred gams of weight - Excellent advice from Megachrome...not!

That allowed Audi to pick up the win, the R15+ was never there on speed just as it wasn't this weekend either. Even though the car is four years old, Audi has still yet to build a car that can match the pure speed of the 908.

[chernaudi]

Whatever, just look at the time sheets and the fact that Audi was going as fast as the Pugs without visiting the trackside kitty litter like a cat with major digestive system issues.

Besides, it's pretty easy to go fast when the ACO gives you a larger restrictor because you have a closed car. Peugeot should be fortunate that they didn't have to do as Bentley and run LMP2 spec tires. That advantage will go away next year, too.

[Plex]

Davidson delighted with 'best' race


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86669

Edited: Sorry about that.

[HORNDAWG]

The full release is not necessary! A link to it works just fine!





L.P.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Besides, it's pretty easy to go fast when the ACO gives you a larger restrictor because you have a closed car. Peugeot should be fortunate that they didn't have to do as Bentley and run LMP2 spec tires. That advantage will go away next year, too.

Yes, and we all remember how Audi was forced at gunpoint to build an open-top car. Wait... That didn't happen? They knew about this and build an open-top car either way?

That makes it kind of pathetic to bring this up now, they went for their concept and have to live with it now.

And regarding the times, I think you fail to consider the McNish factor. He's by far the fastet guy at Audi and most likely even the fastet guy in all of LMP racing. Yes, he can occasionally put down times that come close to match the Peugeots...but none of the other Audi guys can.

What does that tell us? The speed in the car just isn't there and it takes a superstar driver to get these times out of the car. Compare that to Peugeot were all drivers are pretty much able to do the same lap times while at Audi there's a big drop-off after McNish and maybe Tom K.

[chernaudi]

You seem to forget that the guys in the #8 Audi at LM were as fast if not faster than even Allan at times--Lotterer was the fastet Audi driver at Le Mans, and Lotterer, Trulyer and Fassler have been as fast as Allan, Dindo, and TK in testing all year. I hope that those guys have permanenty homes at Audi and soon. Timo is at times as fast, but inconsistnaty so, and Romain looks to be the fastest of that paring.

Other points to consider: Audi designed the R15 in late 2007/early 2008--long before the ACO announced their assinine one wheel gun per stop rule. Audi had and probably still has an advantage under the ALMS pit rules with the open car. Audi have even admitted that the ACO wheel change rules make it easier to justify them running a coupe.

Also, Audi with the R15 has to use a lot of ballast to meet 900kgs, let alone 930kgs. Peugeot has never gotten the 908 much below 930.

Not saying that Peugeot has bullied the ACO into increasing pit stop times and minimum weight for their benefit, but the coincidences just seem to be pretty conveinent and undoubtedly beneficial to Peugeot in the end either way.

In late 2008, Audi was able to challenge Peugeot on the track with the R10, espcially Silverstone and PLM, a car that we all know is no where near as good as the R15 or the 908, so what does that say about Peugeot and Audi's line up overall? The 908 has more straightline speed because of the restrictor and coupe bodywork, while the R15 seems to be more agile but lacks top speed--that you can find on the speed charts, too.

Anyways, in Audi's notes on the race, it's claimed that the #7 was withdrawn after a piece in the differential failed.

[Mike_Wooshy]

I just got home from a fantastic day out, freebies from most of the manufactures involved. I still maintain a need for other entertainment at the track, Fair ground, more virtual racing simulators (possibly ones with LMP and not Formula 1). The list could go on. The racing was fantastic, at the race Mcnish said about Davidsons pass and that he was impressed by Davidson. Good to see Anthony hushing critics after Le mans with a stellar drive. I knew when I got home there would be things posted about how the Audi's still might be quicker than Peugeot. But after today at the track once the Peugeot's got past the Audi's they pulled and maintained a gap. Once the number 7 retired the Peugeots didnt really try as hard. You could see and hear them not driving as agressive as the first few laps. Roll on Petit for some more fantastic racing.

[chernaudi]

Oddly, even though he wasn't pushing as hard, Minassian recieved warnings from the race director about course cutting and a ton of penalities for avoidable contact and course cutting through out the field--a fortaste of PLM on a faster, narrower track with less runoff room?

It seemed that Davidson minded his manners come raceday. Thankfully he learned from Le Mans, though with the #7 Audi retiring and the #8 spinning and not quite being on pace he didn't have to fight as hard. However, he'll have to keep today in mind for PLM unless he wants to run afoul of Barfield and Co and other drivers. Hopefully for Peugeot Montagny has finally learned his lesson about traffic after Spa--or else the much lesser expirence Davidson may have to become the teacher.

Hopefully the Audi differential deal was a fluke and that the R15 will improve at Road Atlanta--a track that Audi Sport knows intimately and will probably have their best line ups in both cars to date. Interesting how neither Audi nor Peugeot really went all out with their driver lineups except in the #7 Audi, and how Audi has targeted PLM and Peugeot has targeted China as the races they most want to win based on line ups.

[gwyllion]

Once Davidson got past McNish, he pulled a gap at a rate of almost 1 sec a lap. Every suggestion that the #7 had the pace to challenge Peugeot for victory, are wishfull thinking.

The fact that Audi was on top in the practice session was mainly down to mixed conditions and good luck with traffic.

[gwyllion]

According http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86673 the #8 Audi was struggling with understeer and therefor they lacked confidence in traffic.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Once Davidson got past McNish, he pulled a gap at a rate of almost 1 sec a lap. Every suggestion that the #7 had the pace to challenge Peugeot for victory, are wishfull thinking.

The fact that Audi was on top in the practice session was mainly down to mixed conditions and good luck with traffic.

Or the fact that Peugeot played Audi's game

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Peugeot certinaly were struggling trying to keep it on the island most of the weekend, and you can't use the excuse of rain because the Pugs were just as fast in mixed conditions. Davidson spun in practice twice and Nic spun in qualifying.

Davidson has a good explanation for his spin:

I didn't put a wheel wrong, the only thing that went wrong was just spinning at Turn 11 in practice, when we put the car too low to the ground.

source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86669

[chernaudi]

Unless Peugeot sandbagged (which judging by lap times is unlikely), the #7 Audi, if set up properly (which the #8 wasn't from warm up onward), should've been as fast as both Pugs. One spin unless the tires were severly flat spotted shouldn't have been enough to keep a Pug off the front row.

Qualifying was perfectly sunny and dry, and yes, McNish got a break in traffic, but even Timo was faster than both Peugeots in qualifying and he hit traffic on his fast lap, so to me that excuse doesn't fly. Maybe the Pugs battled the understeer problems that the #8 had becuase the track didn't rubber in in practice and qualifying.

If I'm Audi, I'd say an extra day or two at Silverstone to test the cars to zero in their HD areo package, which seemed to have worked until race day. And hopefully Dindo is right in that Audi knows what happened with the #7's differential and the #8's handling, as getting though traffic will be paramount at PLM and China, and traffic has always been Audi's stong suit, considering that the Peugeot struggled with traffic all weekend.

Peugeot may've gotten a freebee today with the #7's DNF and the #8 not being as dialed in as in qualifying, but it can only get tougher and still shows how new the R15 is, and when set up right, will be faster than it is now and can likely challenge Peugeot in the last two ILMC races. PLM will be advantage Audi because of their exprienece at Road Atlanta and nearly a weeks worth of practice and testing will get Audi set up and the ALMS uses the old pit rules, so advantage Audi there.

And China will the a potential equalizer, too, since neither Audi or Peugeot have raced there and there are no really long straights for the Pug to use it's speed advantage, as it seemed that Audi had a handling edge until today, and were quick in the warm up today, too.

As for the #8's handling problems, could it have been that since Timo is a relative rookie to an LMP1 diesel and R15's tendance to oversteer, could Audi have overcompensated with adjustments by aiming to have a slightly understeery car and made a change too far?

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Peugeot better look out, because once Audi has a problem like the driveshaft happen, it usually never happens again. Besides, we don't know what Davidson would've done if Allan would've applied pressue

I think this is where Peugeot and Audi differ - we can be pretty much assured that this failure won't happen again to an Audi. Peugeot don't quite give off the same assuring confidence, although the heartbreak at Le Mans does seem to have gone some way to rectifying that from their performance today.

Enjoyed the weekend, there were some good battles in Petrol P1, P2 and GT2 but sadly the fight we all wanted to see never really got to happen.

*edit* - Also have to say I loved that Ferrari 712 on Saturday!

[Svierge]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

As for the #8's handling problems, could it have been that since Timo is a relative rookie to an LMP1 diesel and R15's tendance to oversteer, could Audi have overcompensated with adjustments by aiming to have a slightly understeery car and made a change too far?

I'll ask my mate Leena, the engineer on #8. She'll know, I'm sure.

The R15 wasn't a match for the 908 today. It couldn't do it on pace or economy. As someone else pointed out, AD disappeared once he passed AM in the first stint and the rest of the race was a canter for both Peugeots.

Qualifying was merely a glitch in Peugeot's matrix.

[Steve Tarrant]

For those that were not there, yesterday (Saturday) was cooler and windier, the track was greener because of rain on both Friday and Saturday and the Pugs had annoying small problems at the wrong moments.

Today was warmer from first thing, the track was therefore warmer, more rubber was on the track and there were generally no distractions for Peugeot. Therefore the Peugeots showed their full pace for the first time.

Joest had a new higher downforce spec which appeared to work well on a clear track, but caused understeer when in traffic. Hopefully they have learnt lessons ready for PLM.

Sounds like all Audi AG efforts are on the R18, Joest alone have been left to do any further development work on the R15+.

[chernaudi]

Qualifying was sunny and warm, and even both Audis had issues in traffic in qualifying, so why Peugeot couldn't get the job done there is beyond me.

Dindo said that his car understeered alone from warm up onwards and that didn't allow him to press home any Audi advantage in traffic. I don't know if the #7 had similar issues or not, but it didn't last long enough to do a fast lap in the race so that's an unknown until Audi put out a press release, hopefully soon.

Audi said that they did only one brief test with the sprint bodywork, and maybe that wasn't quite enough to get all the bugs worked out. Fortunatly for Audi, they have two weeks before they have to leave for PLM, and there they'll get 4 days of testing/practice before the race to get their car set up, though Silverstone at least has to be encouraging--they had the speed most of the weekend.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I don't know if the #7 had similar issues or not, but it didn't last long enough to do a fast lap in the race so that's an unknown until Audi put out a press release, hopefully soon.

So McNish wasn't doing fast laps when he desperately tried to stay ahead of Davidson?

I seriously wonder if you believe all the stuff you say. What kind of result does it take for you to come out and say: Yes, the Peugeots were quicker, no excuses.

If both Audis are 3 laps down? Five? Or Never? I guess it's the last...

You´re grasping for every possible straw and it dosen't make a whole lot of sense.

[HORNDAWG]

Hmm, and just what did he say about you????




L.P.

[chernaudi]

Like you did when the ACO and IMSA declared the original R15 legal, even if those "illegal" parts screwed Audi over at Le Mans in '09. The lap charts don't lie. In similar conditions in P3, McNish ran a lap nearly as fast as Miniassian did the previous day, and McNish's ideal lap was faster than Nic's lap, which was the ideal for him and Peugeot. Until the race at least one Audi was as fast as if not faster than the Pugs.

I'll bet you that the 908s didn't really start running 1:44s until later in the race, certinaly their fastest laps came late like with Audi at Paul Ricard, due to the track rubbering in and the retirements making for a clearer track.

Only excuse that Audi has is the #8 was set up wrong and the #7 retired. If Peugeot lost, they would've had no excuse because they had competitive pace even if Audi was faster most of the weekend.

Well see where Audi and Peugeot stand at Road Atlanta, a place that they've been to in '09, and China, where they both have to start from scratch.

As for the #8, I'm almost tempted to say that it had to have something go wrong with the suspension of the car, because Dindo said that in warm up it started off fine, but developed the understeer, and whatever they did had little effect on it. Remember, Audi built a different car for Silverstone '08 because the car that was run at the Nurburgring had similar handling problems. Hopefully, Audi won't have to resort to building up another car, since no R15 has been in a hard accident as far as I know. But I'll bet that they're checking shocks and torsion bars to see if something may've broke that they didn't find before the race.

I doubt that Peugeot is any faster than Audi, but I'm also willing to say that Audi, qualifying aside, wasn't all that much faster than Peugeot most of the weekend, but fast enough to give Peugeot some worries.

[villamas]

The start

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTvta15W3o0

Audi vs Peugeot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nobImAg8MI