Anthony Davidson - any good?

[Ej10]

This thread was split from this one about Ralph Firman. It was not started by EJ10. It was moved so the Ralph Firman topic could continue.

Thanks. Adam.

by EJ10
im sorry but what has anthony davidson and jenson button won mmmmmmmmmmmm nothin as far as i know and davidson was beaten by sato ha ha ha

[cos]

Originally posted by Ej10
im sorry but what has anthony davidson and jenson button won mmmmmmmmmmmm nothin as far as i know and davidson was beaten by sato ha ha ha

They both won the FFord Festival, Button won the championship in 1998, and both were best rookies in their only season of F3.

[Jellybabe]

Originally posted by Ej10
im sorry but what has anthony davidson and jenson button won mmmmmmmmmmmm nothin as far as i know and davidson was beaten by sato ha ha ha

Well that just shows how little you know - both Ant and Jenson won huge amounts of championships in karting, just like Fisichella, Trulli and the Schumachers. Yes, Sato did win the 2001 F3 championship but it was his second year and Ant's first. During the second half of the year when Ant had found his feet he actually did better than Taku, but by that point Taku had got a big lead. If Ant had chosen to continue in F3 last year I have absolutely no doubts that he would have won the title, but instead he chose to concentrate on his F1 testing, which lead to his Minardi drive and almost a Jordan drive as well when Fisi hurt his back.

[Jellybabe]

Originally posted by The_Z_Man

Anthony Davidson (2000 Wins Autosport/McLaren Young Driver of the Year - It's not like he isn't known by RD) is brit to the best of my knowledge, why did DC and JB got to get "nurtured" and he didn't ? What have you seen in him that the F1 team managers missed ?

Ant never got to drive the McLaren as part of his prize though, so Ron never got to work with him or assess him up close. If you're brutally honest then DC has never been a brilliant driver, just a good one, and Jenson hasn't really impressed either. I wouldn't say Jenson has been nurtured, but DC certainly has - he's been in a McLaren, which has been in the top 3 and was the best car for a couple of years, since 1996 and he's never looked like challeging for the title.

Ant is also very underrated by a lot of people, probably partly because he's so small people don't expect big things from him, but if he had the chance to race in a good car then he'd open a few eyes Craig Pollock certainly rated him and I believe that if David Richards hadn't taken over at BAR it would have been Ant in the second car this year and not Jenson...although that would have upset a few people because Jacques and Ant get on pretty well so there wouldn't have been all those juicy soundbites from JV over Chriatmas

[alchemy]

Good on ya Jellybabe... at last someone who can see the wood from the trees.

[The_Z_Man]

Originally posted by Jellybabe
Ant never got to drive the McLaren as part of his prize though, so Ron never got to work with him or assess him up close.

True, why is that according to you ? Why dind't he get that chance ?

Originally posted by Jellybabe
If you're brutally honest then DC has never been a brilliant driver, just a good one, and Jenson hasn't really impressed either.

I never said that DC is brilliant or any other rating - I just post my evidence to counter some of the claims I read from time to times - and Button is quite indifferent to me. Was MH brilliant according to you ?

Originally posted by Jellybabe
I wouldn't say Jenson has been nurtured, but DC certainly has - he's been in a McLaren, which has been in the top 3 and was the best car for a couple of years, since 1996 and he's never looked like challeging for the title.{...}

I would have to disagree with the last sentence. In 2000, he was remove from title contention - and he had to split points with his teammate - at Monza by the out of control cars of Barrichello and Frentzen, and in 2001, he was pretty much in contention when McLaren started to self destruct by sticking on the grid, grenading its Mercedes or running around with wandering suspension bolts in the cockpit.

Would you please define the "nurturing" aspect that you're talking about ?

I have nothing for or against Anthony Davidson but I've seen nothing that would convince me that he would run rings around JB and DC.

[Jellybabe]

Originally posted by The_Z_Man

True, why is that according to you ? Why dind't he get that chance ?

This is not just according to me. He signed his test contract with BAR before he got a chance to drive the McLaren. Craig Pollock likes to snap up talent, and did so almost as soon as Ant won the BRDC award.

I never said that DC is brilliant or any other rating - I just post my evidence to counter some of the claims I read from time to times - and Button is quite indifferent to me. Was MH brilliant according to you ?

Yes, and he won two titles to prove it. An average driver in the best car can win a title once but there has to be something special for someone to win it twice. (I should add that that doesn't mean I think that everyone who only won one title is only average!)

Would you please define the "nurturing" aspect that you're talking about ?

Why don't you define your nurturing, since you're the one who started the conversation. I was just replying to your post. What I was talking about was having a stable drive for more than a couple of years and being supported by the same people and not taking too much flak. DC has had a good drive for several years, has worked with the same people and even when he's not been doing well the British press have in general not usually got on his case too much. In contract Jenson has been moved from team to team to team and has had to deal with a lot of bad press.

I have nothing for or against Anthony Davidson but I've seen nothing that would convince me that he would run rings around JB and DC.

Running rings wasn't my quote, but regardless of whether or not you've seen anything special about Ant, he is capable of it.

[The_Z_Man]

Originally posted by Jellybabe
This is not just according to me. He signed his test contract with BAR before he got a chance to drive the McLaren. Craig Pollock likes to snap up talent, and did so almost as soon as Ant won the BRDC award.

All I can say is that many things in life are a question of timing.

Originally posted by Jellybabe
Yes, and he won two titles to prove it. An average driver in the best car can win a title once but there has to be something special for someone to win it twice.

This is the difference between MH and DC, make of that what you will:

GP started MH-DC: 99-99
Qualification MH-DC: 68-31 (less than .2s in average)
Mech DNFs MH-DC: 23-22
Points MH-DC: 347-297
Podiums PH-DC: 42-42
Wins MH-DC: 20-10* (there was a gifted win in Jerez 1997)

DC has scored 85% of the points that MH scored when they were together (297 vs 347) for roughly the same amunts of mech DNFs.

It means that statiscally it's equivalent to DC scoring a win + a 2nd for every 2 wins for MH.

Originally posted by Jellybabe
(I should add that that doesn't mean I think that everyone who only won one title is only average!)

Don't worry, that how I understood it.

Originally posted by Jellybabe
Why don't you define your nurturing, since you're the one who started the conversation. I was just replying to your post.

Actually, I wasn't, it was Alchemy. I was just replying to his, if you followed the thread.

Originally posted by Jellybabe
What I was talking about was having a stable drive for more than a couple of years and being supported by the same people and not taking too much flak. DC has had a good drive for several years, has worked with the same people and even when he's not been doing well the British press have in general not usually got on his case too much.

Well, that maybe because DC is doing better than you think. At least his boss apparently thinks so.

Originally posted by Jellybabe
In contract Jenson has been moved from team to team to team and has had to deal with a lot of bad press.

I'm not familiar with the britsih press, what do they say in a nutshell about Button ?

Originally posted by Jellybabe
Running rings wasn't my quote, but regardless of whether or not you've seen anything special about Ant, he is capable of it.

Capable of what since we're not talking about "running rings (around DC and JB)" - yet another Alchemy quote. I've read his pre-F1 CV which seems quite good.

All I've seen Anthony Davidson do in F1 is qualify in average .5s from Mark Webber and unfortunately spin both times in the races.

The_Z_Man

[Sato san]

Originally posted by Ej10
im sorry but what has anthony davidson and jenson button won mmmmmmmmmmmm nothin as far as i know and davidson was beaten by sato ha ha ha

this is joke right !......Yes Davidson was runner up in F3 championship , your right , he was beaten by Taku , but Taku was in his 2nd year at Carlin in the Championship class and had much more experince to draw from , Davidson was fresh out of winning the FF Festival the year before and pushed Sato very hard.....he also won some international F3 at Pau etc .....

Davidson is very good indeed !....Its too easy to knock these young drivers , give them a break , the guy is very fast indeed .

[KA]

Originally posted by The_Z_Man


All I've seen Anthony Davidson do in F1 is qualify in average .5s from Mark Webber and unfortunately spin both times in the races.

The_Z_Man

In Hungary that was about .5s off Webber's pace in a car he'd never driven before, on a track I don't believe he'd driven on before- not too shabby I'd say?

[Jellybabe]

Originally posted by The_Z_Man
I'm not familiar with the britsih press, what do they say in a nutshell about Button ?

Basically when he first got into F1 you'd have thought he was the seond coming by the way the press went on about him, then when he didn't deliver in his first year they started getting on his back, saying he was underachieving and overhyped, and didn't deserve the Williams drive. That's a very very basic generalisation, but then after that there were still some people expecting miracles in the Renault, and of course they didn't happen either so he took more stick and some papers went as far as accusing him of spending too much time thinking about his boat and his girlfriend and not enough thinking about his racing.

It's interesting to note that when Ant made his debut he got huge amounts of press too, but in a way it was good that he was in a Minardi because the papers weren't expecting too much so he didn't get a slating when he didn't finish, the papers just saw him as another plucky British loser...although I still can't see what's so good about not winning!

All I've seen Anthony Davidson do in F1 is qualify in average .5s from Mark Webber and unfortunately spin both times in the races.

See if you can get hold of any footage from the FFord Festival or the European F3 races - it might change your opinion

[The_Z_Man]

Originally posted by KA
In Hungary that was about .5s off Webber's pace in a car he'd never driven before, on a track I don't believe he'd driven on before-

I believe that MW was also discovering the track.

Originally posted by KA
not too shabby I'd say?

Just so that we are clear: I wasn't saying that AD was bad or anything - as I wrote previously he has a good pre-F1 CV.

I was just putting some of the claims made here in perspective, that's all.

The_Z_Man

[The_Z_Man]

Originally posted by Jellybabe
{...}
See if you can get hold of any footage from the FFord Festival or the European F3 races - it might change your opinion

I'm more than willing to give him a few breaks. As I said, I didn't say that he was bad or anything.

Thanks for the summary on british press about JB.

The_Z_Man

[Jellybabe]

Originally posted by The_Z_Man

I believe that MW was also discovering the track.

I thought he'd raced there in F3000.

Just so that we are clear: I wasn't saying that AD was bad or anything - as I wrote previously he has a good pre-F1 CV. I was just putting some of the claims made here in perspective, that's all.

But, and please don't take this as a personal attack or anything, you can only give a very limited view because you haven't been watching him for the last 8 years* and you haven't seen just what he's capable of.

* I know he's been racing longer than 8 years, but that's how long I've been wathcing him

[The_Z_Man]

Originally posted by Jellybabe
I thought he'd raced there in F3000.

My bad, then.

Originally posted by Jellybabe
But, and please don't take this as a personal attack or anything

I won't, I'm enjoying this discussion with you.

Originally posted by Jellybabe
you can only give a very limited view because you haven't been watching him for the last 8 years* and you haven't seen just what he's capable of.

True. That's why I didn't say that he was bad or anything, maybe next year we will be cheering for him together.

Originally posted by Jellybabe
* I know he's been racing longer than 8 years, but that's how long I've been wathcing him [/i]

Of course, of course.

The_Z_Man

[Sato san]

Originally posted by Jellybabe
.I thought he'd raced there in F3000.

[/B][/QUOTE]

yes ....he raced there 2 years running , for European Aviation and Super Nova

[Jellybabe]

Rennen doesn't come on the forum very much any more but I told him about this thread and he sent me this:

"As it happens Re JB v Ant in FF & F3 ...JB joined Haywood when the Mygale was superior to the VDs (VD resting on their laurels possible but were busy developing other cars for other markets, However they responded to the challenge) So you were right about Ant lifting the machine so to speak.

"Throughout their early junior karting Cadet and JTKM JB had better engine preparation fact!...till '94 that is when Ant's works Gillard with DeBruijn tuned Rotax (in Junior Britain) and Parillas in JICA was able to turn the tables on him.

"In FF JB won the British title and the Festival, Ant would have finished 2nd in the British (but for a penalty for pushing Mark Taylor off at Oulton round! he,he!) but did split the two works VD's and of course outclassed them in the wet festival heats and blocked 'em good and proper in the disadvantaged dry final.

"In F3 Jenson made a storming start with pole at the first round at Donington...but made some silly rookie mistakes to finish 3rd in the champs. But Anthony had mighty Sato to contend with and by round 4 had 'come of age' and was beating him to win more races than Jenson had...AND was pure magic at PAU and mighty at SPA to clinch the FIA European Cup (with 2nd at Silverstone GP and 3rd from grid 10! at the Zandvoort Marlboro Masters) Which beats JBs F3 year hands down!

"But what both of these two have is that they both adapted to the next 'rung of the ladder' when they graduated a class be it in karts or cars both being front runners and winners in their respective rookie years.

"Any average to good driver can win a title doing a class season after season after season! But JB and Ant are simple a cut above the rest...they fact that the 'average' enthusiast missed that OR fell for JB's exceptional PR campaign is their fault."

[Valve Bounce]

Having read teh above, it must beg two questions:
1. What can be done for Ant to get into a driver's seat in F1?
and
2. What is he doing about it?

It is obvious he is not alone. There must be other drivers in Brazil, France, Germany, Japan ........ who are in the same position, and who may or will be just as good as Ant, maybe not now but perhaps in a couple of years' time. With the demise of Arrows and Prost, 4 racers and probably two or more test drivers have now missed out, and will join the dog fight for F1 seats.

P.S. Flame baiters need not respond to my questions.

[Sato san]

Ant seems to be very sure of his abilitys , and has said he will sit and wait for the right drive , rather than just jump and pay lumps of money for any drive going ....

i personally have a lot of respect for the guy , and on top of all his driving talent , he is a damm nice chap as well..

[Valve Bounce]

So do I, and I fully agree with you. However, there remains the problem of getting him a drive in F1, and that is the discussion I hoped to start.

[Jellybabe]

Another reason he's not going to pay for his seat is that he doesn't have any money!

[Mr Jinxx]

who finances and manages Ant then?

[BootsOntheSide]

The best way to get a drive in F1, if you don't have a barrowful of money, is to get a drive in ChampCars. Montoya, Villeneuve and now Da Matta have all came over from it with impressive racing skills, honed natural speed and strong reputations.

[Jellybabe]

He gets paid by BAR for testing, if that's what you're asking. But he doesn't get paid enough that he's got a spare couple of million in his back pocket ready to hand over to needy team owners!

[mcurtis26]

At least anthony is getting some race action this year. He's gonna be driving the prodrive ferrari 550 gts at le mans and sebring with peter kox and thomas enge. There's also a few alms rounds in the offing, and know that prodrive have an official link up with sam li and veloqx, there's even chance of a few rides in the fia gt and at the higher profile british GT rounds such as spa and silverstone