[Official] Singapore Grand Prix 2023: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 16 of 23

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Have you seen the points table? George is at a key point as to whether he might be considered a genuine topliner in future, or whether he’s going to be a ‘number one and a half’ at best.

By that same comparison - how do the paddock 'insiders' now see Sainz's position as a potential 'number one'?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

By that same comparison - how do the paddock 'insiders' now see Sainz's position as a potential 'number one'?

I think it's unfortunate that it has to be viewed this way at all. But it does seem to me that the tide is turning. I always maintained that there was little to choose between them but then Charles seemed to get the upper hand. I see Charles as more.... fragile.... than Carlos. Once Carlos gets the bit between his teeth as he did in Monza and this weekend, he seems to come alive.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Have you seen the points table? George is at a key point as to whether he might be considered a genuine topliner in future, or whether he’s going to be a ‘number one and a half’ at best.

Just on this a bit. It's funny how F1 perception works.

George has 60% of the points of Lewis. He has 2 DNFs from crashing.
Perez has 60% of the points of Max. He has not DNF'd from a crash.

But the perception is that Perez is doing much worse than George.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Just on this a bit. It's funny how F1 perception works.

George has 60% of the points of Lewis. He has 2 DNFs from crashing.
Perez has 60% of the points of Max. He has not DNF'd from a crash.

But the perception is that Perez is doing much worse than George.

Well noticed, and it's certainly noticed amongst the people I deal with.

In fact it's worse as the points differential between the positions the Mercs are fighting over is less than those for the Red Bulls, meaning the massive point difference is even bigger really.

Also Perez is up against a Verstappen at the possible height of his abilities, whereas I think most would agree Hamilton is slowly in a gradual decline.

Also, in a seven car fight Russell is currently P7.

I am sure Mercedes are in a quandary as to who to look to for the future. Putting too many of their eggs in the Antonelli basket already would have to be a big risk.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I think it's unfortunate that it has to be viewed this way at all. But it does seem to me that the tide is turning. I always maintained that there was little to choose between them but then Charles seemed to get the upper hand. I see Charles as more.... fragile.... than Carlos. Once Carlos gets the bit between his teeth as he did in Monza and this weekend, he seems to come alive.

Fair play to Sainz, he's done very well these last two races, although I suspect those battles were won in qualifying much more than the races.

It will be interesting to see how Leclerc fights back during the rest of the year, especially being behind Sainz in the points.

The €200m contract rumours have certainly cooled of late!

[Aysedasi]

It was good to see Vasseur so obviously happy with what Sainz achieved. There has been so much talk of Leclerc's incredible one-lap pace but Carlos has definitely outshone him in this regard for the last two race weekends and has brought a steely determination both to get the win yesterday and retain 3rd at Monza. Hoping that this is more representative of what Ferrari might achieve for the rest of the season it will be interesting to see which one of the drivers really asserts himself....

[BTCC frog]

I think that Alpha Tauri should give Liam Lawson a contract for 2024, but they still need to bring back Daniel Ricciardo alongside Yuki Tsunoda as soon as possible. Ricciardo is never supposed to be a long-term option for that drive, he is there to test if he is operating at his level at McLaren still, or if he can return to his level of 2020 and before and can replace Sergio Perez at Red Bull. I think Ricciardo needs to do the last few races to find that out, and if they decide he definitely is good enough, he should be in the Red Bull for 2024. If they decide it is still inconclusive, he starts 2024 in the Alpha Tauri alongside Lawson. If he is beaten by Tsunoda in the final few races, then Ricciardo's F1 career is over and it is Tsunoda and Lawson for 2024.

And George Russell has been far, far better than Sergio Perez in 2023. He may have a similar % score of Hamilton's points to Perez against Verstappen, but the number of points is not hugely important. Gasly has more points than Ocon this year but hasn't been the better Alpine driver. If Perez finishes second to Verstappen he gets 72% of his points, while if Mercedes are 3-4 then Russell gets 80% of Hamilton's points, same for 5-6. But if Perez is half a second off Verstappen, that might still be enough for second, while if Hamilton is third and Russell is half a second off, he might be out of the top ten. It has been pointed out that Russell has had two crashes and Perez none, but Perez has crashed in Monaco and Australia qualifying, arguably just as costly, and today he pulled a poor move on Albon that cost him nothing because the stewards seem to think 5-second penalties are appropriate for absolutely everything from crossing the pit entry line to ruining another driver's race (same with Hamilton in Monza).

The main thing is that Russell has had a lot of bad luck in 2023 that has made the points gap look huge. He has often been quicker than Hamilton in a weekend, whereas Perez only really did that against Verstappen in Baku (admittedly, Verstappen is much better than Hamilton in 2023). In Jeddah, Russell was better than Hamilton all weekend. In Australia he was leading the race for his teammate when a red flag to remove gravel from the track ruined his race, and then he had a mechanical failure. In Miami he beat Hamilton on merit again. In Spain, he messed up qualifying just as Perez did, but beat him to third in the race despite starting behind in a normal race. In Silverstone, he was ahead of Hamilton all weekend before Hamilton was lucky with the safety car. He messed up qualifying in Hungary but recovered well to sixth. In Zandvoort, he qualified third and was in contention to finish towards the front when Mercedes got his strategy wrong. And in Singapore he had bested Hamilton all weekend but made one mistake at the end. He has effectively been on Hamilton's pace all season but has made key mistakes in Singapore, Canada and Monaco as well as messing up a few qualifying performances. And Hamilton is one of the greatest ever even if he is in slight decline. The mistakes get ironed out over the years, Hamilton made plenty himself in 2008 and particularly 2011. His mistakes have not been as alarming as the number that Leclerc has made in his fifth season in a top car. Perez has a car advantage that means he should be finishing second to Verstappen every time, but he has consistently made mistakes or had bad days that mean he has rarely managed to do so.

For me, in a driver ranking for the season, Russell is behind the top four of Verstappen, Norris, Alonso and Hamilton but he is in the 5-8 area with Albon, Sainz and Leclerc (Ferraris have been very close this year). Perez is 14th, ahead of the Alfa Romeos, Magnussen, Stroll and Sargeant but a step below the mid-pack of Ocon, Gasly, Piastri, Tsunoda and Hulkenberg. I still think Russell is the future of Mercedes, there aren't really any better options apart from Lando Norris.

Also, I think the stewarding was poor today. I don't agree with Hamilton having to give the position to Norris, as he would certainly have made the corner ahead of the McLaren had Russell not been there, so he was forced off by Russell while going for third and so should have been fourth. But I didn't agree with him not having to give the place back to Perez for the overtake that was clearly off-track. And how Perez got away with a five-second penalty for divebombing into the side of Albon is a mystery to me, although as previously said, Hamilton got the same thing for the move on Piastri in Monza which was a lesser mistake but still entirely his and had similar consequences for the other driver.

[Aysedasi]

Personally I can see absolutely no reason to replace Perez with Ricciardo. OK, we know that Perez can't perform in the way that Max can, week in, week out (anywhere but Singapore...), but RBR will win both titles comfortably. Why upset the applecart for a driver who hasn't proved himself at all for several seasons and is highly likely to be completely blown away by Max? I think because of his past plus the fact that he's a highly likeable guy, we tend to view Danny Ric through rose-tinted specs. I fear his day is all bar done now, particularly because of the way that Lawson has performed 'straight out of the box' in a car that we had thought to be a bit of a dog....

[HDTVKSS]

It’s hard to judge Lawson v Tsunoda on race pace given that Tsunoda hasn’t completed a racing lap in the last 2 races…. For me? Put Ricciardo and Lawson in the AT. Tsunoda the off to AM as reserve warming the seat for the Honda change.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

Also, I think the stewarding was poor today. I don't agree with Hamilton having to give the position to Norris, as he would certainly have made the corner ahead of the McLaren had Russell not been there, so he was forced off by Russell while going for third and so should have been fourth. But I didn't agree with him not having to give the place back to Perez for the overtake that was clearly off-track. And how Perez got away with a five-second penalty for divebombing into the side of Albon is a mystery to me, although as previously said, Hamilton got the same thing for the move on Piastri in Monza which was a lesser mistake but still entirely his and had similar consequences for the other driver.

With reference to your comment about Hamilton having to give a place back because Russell was there, can you explain to someone who didn't watch the race what you mean. I say this because Russell was there and he cannot just vanish into thin air so that Hamilton wanted to get by. Surely it is Hamilton's responsibility to make passes by keeping to the track regardless of any other car that may be in the race?

After all, Russell wasn't a backmarker, was he?

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

I think that Alpha Tauri should give Liam Lawson a contract for 2024, but they still need to bring back Daniel Ricciardo alongside Yuki Tsunoda as soon as possible. Ricciardo is never supposed to be a long-term option for that drive, he is there to test if he is operating at his level at McLaren still, or if he can return to his level of 2020 and before and can replace Sergio Perez at Red Bull. I think Ricciardo needs to do the last few races to find that out, and if they decide he definitely is good enough, he should be in the Red Bull for 2024. If they decide it is still inconclusive, he starts 2024 in the Alpha Tauri alongside Lawson. If he is beaten by Tsunoda in the final few races, then Ricciardo's F1 career is over and it is Tsunoda and Lawson for 2024.

And George Russell has been far, far better than Sergio Perez in 2023. He may have a similar % score of Hamilton's points to Perez against Verstappen, but the number of points is not hugely important. Gasly has more points than Ocon this year but hasn't been the better Alpine driver. If Perez finishes second to Verstappen he gets 72% of his points, while if Mercedes are 3-4 then Russell gets 80% of Hamilton's points, same for 5-6. But if Perez is half a second off Verstappen, that might still be enough for second, while if Hamilton is third and Russell is half a second off, he might be out of the top ten. It has been pointed out that Russell has had two crashes and Perez none, but Perez has crashed in Monaco and Australia qualifying, arguably just as costly, and today he pulled a poor move on Albon that cost him nothing because the stewards seem to think 5-second penalties are appropriate for absolutely everything from crossing the pit entry line to ruining another driver's race (same with Hamilton in Monza).

The main thing is that Russell has had a lot of bad luck in 2023 that has made the points gap look huge. He has often been quicker than Hamilton in a weekend, whereas Perez only really did that against Verstappen in Baku (admittedly, Verstappen is much better than Hamilton in 2023). In Jeddah, Russell was better than Hamilton all weekend. In Australia he was leading the race for his teammate when a red flag to remove gravel from the track ruined his race, and then he had a mechanical failure. In Miami he beat Hamilton on merit again. In Spain, he messed up qualifying just as Perez did, but beat him to third in the race despite starting behind in a normal race. In Silverstone, he was ahead of Hamilton all weekend before Hamilton was lucky with the safety car. He messed up qualifying in Hungary but recovered well to sixth. In Zandvoort, he qualified third and was in contention to finish towards the front when Mercedes got his strategy wrong. And in Singapore he had bested Hamilton all weekend but made one mistake at the end. He has effectively been on Hamilton's pace all season but has made key mistakes in Singapore, Canada and Monaco as well as messing up a few qualifying performances. And Hamilton is one of the greatest ever even if he is in slight decline. The mistakes get ironed out over the years, Hamilton made plenty himself in 2008 and particularly 2011. His mistakes have not been as alarming as the number that Leclerc has made in his fifth season in a top car. Perez has a car advantage that means he should be finishing second to Verstappen every time, but he has consistently made mistakes or had bad days that mean he has rarely managed to do so.

For me, in a driver ranking for the season, Russell is behind the top four of Verstappen, Norris, Alonso and Hamilton but he is in the 5-8 area with Albon, Sainz and Leclerc (Ferraris have been very close this year). Perez is 14th, ahead of the Alfa Romeos, Magnussen, Stroll and Sargeant but a step below the mid-pack of Ocon, Gasly, Piastri, Tsunoda and Hulkenberg. I still think Russell is the future of Mercedes, there aren't really any better options apart from Lando Norris.

Also, I think the stewarding was poor today. I don't agree with Hamilton having to give the position to Norris, as he would certainly have made the corner ahead of the McLaren had Russell not been there, so he was forced off by Russell while going for third and so should have been fourth. But I didn't agree with him not having to give the place back to Perez for the overtake that was clearly off-track. And how Perez got away with a five-second penalty for divebombing into the side of Albon is a mystery to me, although as previously said, Hamilton got the same thing for the move on Piastri in Monza which was a lesser mistake but still entirely his and had similar consequences for the other driver.

Perez - It's more difficult to get rid of him now unless he can find another drive for 2024.

Russell - Really? He's been trounced by Hamilton this year. Over the course of a season you make your own luck, so that doesn't really come into it. Yesterday was a massive, massive mistake from him, and he clearly knew it.

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

With reference to your comment about Hamilton having to give a place back because Russell was there, can you explain to someone who didn't watch the race what you mean. I say this because Russell was there and he cannot just vanish into thin air so that Hamilton wanted to get by. Surely it is Hamilton's responsibility to make passes by keeping to the track regardless of any other car that may be in the race?

After all, Russell wasn't a backmarker, was he?

On lap one, Lewis Hamilton went around the outside of Norris and Russell at turn one and pulled alongside Russell to go for third place, but Russell sort of crowded him out although really there wasn't much space to begin with, and Hamilton went around the escape road and came out in third place, ahead of Russell and Norris. For me, it was right that he had to give the place back to Russell as he had been alongside him and gone for a move that wasn't really on. But what I objected to was him also having to give the place back to Norris, considering he was clearly ahead of Norris while going into the corner and him missing the corner was because of Russell being there, rather than anything to do with the overtake on Norris.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

On lap one, Lewis Hamilton went around the outside of Norris and Russell at turn one and pulled alongside Russell to go for third place, but Russell sort of crowded him out although really there wasn't much space to begin with, and Hamilton went around the escape road and came out in third place, ahead of Russell and Norris. For me, it was right that he had to give the place back to Russell as he had been alongside him and gone for a move that wasn't really on. But what I objected to was him also having to give the place back to Norris, considering he was clearly ahead of Norris while going into the corner and him missing the corner was because of Russell being there, rather than anything to do with the overtake on Norris.

My view on tat aligns with Landos. He was ahead of Norris into the corner because he braked way later to put his car into a gap that was never going to be there.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

My view on tat aligns with Landos. He was ahead of Norris into the corner because he braked way later to put his car into a gap that was never going to be there.

My view as well.

Richard

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

On lap one, Lewis Hamilton went around the outside of Norris and Russell at turn one and pulled alongside Russell to go for third place, but Russell sort of crowded him out although really there wasn't much space to begin with, and Hamilton went around the escape road and came out in third place, ahead of Russell and Norris. For me, it was right that he had to give the place back to Russell as he had been alongside him and gone for a move that wasn't really on. But what I objected to was him also having to give the place back to Norris, considering he was clearly ahead of Norris while going into the corner and him missing the corner was because of Russell being there, rather than anything to do with the overtake on Norris.

He went passed where he should have braked in order to go into a space that wasn't there. It was a no brainer to cede to Norris as well as Russell, otherwise would have been an obvious and clear penalty from Race Control.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

My view on tat aligns with Landos. He was ahead of Norris into the corner because he braked way later to put his car into a gap that was never going to be there.

Totally agree.

[Mike Harte]

Based on what you have said, I'm afraid that I agree with others that the responsibility lay with Hamilton to complete the move without having to resort to missing the corner. Before he made the move he should have realised that because Russell was there he wouldn't have enough track to brake that late, and therefore his overtake on Norris was completed in a proper fashion.

Therefore he has to give Norris his place back.

[BTCC frog]

The video is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TmrPvoHSGQ

For me, the move is done on Norris. Russell could have given Hamilton more space and the two of them are contesting the position going into the corner with Norris clearly behind them. Hamilton could have slotted in between Norris and Russell (with his nose in front of Norris at least) but tried to get two cars in one, realised there wasn't space and backed out of fourth place. But I accept that it is not clear cut.

[Aysedasi]

It was done, but effectively became undone when Hamilton missed the corner instead of braking and sitting behind Russell. But he was probably carrying too much speed by that point, hence missing the corner completely. If he could have slowed up enough to slot in behind Russell, there has to be a decent chance that Norris would have got him back but he had no chance to try because Hamilton had carried so much speed straightlining the corner.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

The video is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TmrPvoHSGQ

For me, the move is done on Norris. Russell could have given Hamilton more space and the two of them are contesting the position going into the corner with Norris clearly behind them. Hamilton could have slotted in between Norris and Russell (with his nose in front of Norris at least) but tried to get two cars in one, realised there wasn't space and backed out of fourth place. But I accept that it is not clear cut.

Before looking at that, I was well on my way to thinking it was reasonable to give the place back to Norris. Maybe I was influenced by the speed Hamilton carried across the run-off and the distance from track.

After watching the video I agree that the pass on Norris was done under braking. Hamilton then turned in and found Russell occupying the space he wanted, so he opened the steering and shot off across the run-off. So he shouldn't need to give the place back.

[Greem]

Having spent the weekend as an actual bona-fide event steward at Donington Park*, I'm looking at that incident with a new set of viewpoints.

IMO giving both positions back was correct, as even though he'd overlapped and then passed Norris, Hamilton's speed was such that it was either hit George, spin and probably hit Norris, or bail out. The move taken as a whole wasn't really on.

*Someone was ill, and I was available, and I got a crash course in what it's all about. Helped by having significant local knowledge, of course!

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

Also, I think the stewarding was poor today. I don't agree with Hamilton having to give the position to Norris, as he would certainly have made the corner ahead of the McLaren had Russell not been there, so he was forced off by Russell while going for third and so should have been fourth. But I didn't agree with him not having to give the place back to Perez for the overtake that was clearly off-track. And how Perez got away with a five-second penalty for divebombing into the side of Albon is a mystery to me, although as previously said, Hamilton got the same thing for the move on Piastri in Monza which was a lesser mistake but still entirely his and had similar consequences for the other driver.

You might also mention Verstappen's two transgressions in qualifying:

1. Parking up at the end of the pitlane with the light on green, and accumulating a queue of cars behind him.
2. Impeding Tsunoda. (It was Tsunoda, wasn't it?)

I really don't understand how he didn't get 3 or 5 place penalties for each of those. So that would have been 6, 8 or 10 places back, so 17th, 19th or 20th (assuming Stroll could have started).

[Akrapovic]

What are the rules regarding pit lane entry lines? Alonso was penalised for crossing it, and Max was not. I haven't kept up with what line is what now.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

Hamilton could have slotted in between Norris and Russell (with his nose in front of Norris at least) but tried to get two cars in one, realised there wasn't space and backed out of fourth place. But I accept that it is not clear cut.

FWIW - my view on it rests in the comment 'tried to get two cars in one'.
The move was attempting to take two cars - and so having not completed the move effectively then both cars are entitled to their places back.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

You might also mention Verstappen's two transgressions in qualifying:

1. Parking up at the end of the pitlane with the light on green, and accumulating a queue of cars behind him.
2. Impeding Tsunoda. (It was Tsunoda, wasn't it?)

I really don't understand how he didn't get 3 or 5 place penalties for each of those. So that would have been 6, 8 or 10 places back, so 17th, 19th or 20th (assuming Stroll could have started).

There did seem to be a significantly more lenient attitude towards Verstappen than to others recently........but of course I'm sure the "reprimand" will have been deeply felt