Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

A Dallara can be gotten new for $330,000, mountainstar...don't know where you got the $700,000 figure, but it is incorrect.

AFAIK the cost when all said and done comes out to around $700k.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I really don't understand why people are so scared that they are resistant to opening up the chassis regs for development by all comers. It worked before and would work again.

I think that you need to read what I wrote...

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

I personally think that any true design revolution in the league would involve writing some rules and allowing teams to build their own cars so there would be excitement about new designs every season.

Of course, that'll never happen, because the R&D to develop something that is both fast and safe from square one in this economy would be cost prohibitive to teams to do...besides, to recoup that $$$, you would have to be able to build more and sell them.

I love the diversity of chassis and builders in sportscar endurance racing...that's why I love watching the ALMS...and I would love to have multiple builders be allowed to create the next chapter of Indy Cars.

Let's face it...Panoz has laid off virtually all of their designers and engineers, so they don't have the resources to build a new chassis, nor the staff to redesign the DP01 to run on ovals...They're out...

Lola might jump into the fray, but IIRC, they are going to try to get in on the F1 action, aren't they, in addition to their LMP1s and LMP2s...would they put this new project on their plate as well?

Swift would be a candidate, as would Dome...

But who is going to drop millions of $$$ into design, R&D, etc. in this economy to sell cars to a series in which you are splitting a 22-24 driver/car pie many ways if you have multiple chassis builders?

How many cars did Riley & Scott sell in the IRL when they were a builder? 3 or 4 at the most? They lost their shirts on the project!

Panoz didn't sell another car after the midway point of the 2005 season and ultimately disappeared from the series when everyone switched to Dallaras.

I don't "fear" multiple builders...I welcome it!...

But I'm also a realist, and it just won't happen in this economic climate.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Panoz didn't sell another car after the midway point of the 2005 season and ultimately disappeared from the series when everyone switched to Dallaras.

Why did Panoz disappear and Dallara become the dominant chassis? Was the Dallara cheaper to buy, easier to run?

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Why did Panoz disappear and Dallara become the dominant chassis? Was the Dallara cheaper to buy, easier to run?

Firestone changed their tires to a harder compound that the Dallara seemed to handle well, but the Panoz chassis just couldn't get any grip with the harder compound without really cranking in downforce, which hurt their speed and competitiveness.

Rahal Letterman Racing dropped their Panoz cars following the race at Texas in 2006 and by that time, Ganassi was running the Panoz only on road courses, leaving Fernandez Racing as the only team driving the Panoz chassis.

No one ran them in 2007

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Personally I think the whole world has gone insane. The irl with an idea to run turbocharged wingless formula fords...

You don't think making the cars more challenging to the driver would improve the sport? I assume you know that CART used to run slightly negative rear wing angles at Indy, to match the direction of air flow and minimize drag. In other words, it was entirely underbody downforce. I think a wingless formula, if they do it, will be the best decision they've ever made. Bringing back the turbo four-banger formula which worked very well forty years ago would also be a great move. It's a standard item in most manufacturer's lines, and if the World Engine gets any traction, there will be a source for them which may be in common with other series, improving the cost structure.

There isn't much in the IRL I find appealing, but I if they do this, they will probably get me back.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by miatanut

You don't think making the cars more challenging to the driver would improve the sport? I assume you know that CART used to run slightly negative rear wing angles at Indy, to match the direction of air flow and minimize drag. In other words, it was entirely underbody downforce. I think a wingless formula, if they do it, will be the best decision they've ever made. Bringing back the turbo four-banger formula which worked very well forty years ago would also be a great move. It's a standard item in most manufacturer's lines, and if the World Engine gets any traction, there will be a source for them which may be in common with other series, improving the cost structure.

There isn't much in the IRL I find appealing, but I if they do this, they will probably get me back.

I don't think another spec series will make it challenging for the driver and I don't see that tact as being progress towards a dynamic future of innovation.

I think there is more to this chassis deal than meets the eye.

I don't find anything at all appealing about the irl, especially since the hulmangeorge clan still owns it, but even if that goes, I'm not seeing anything exciting here.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I don't think another spec series will make it challenging for the driver and I don't see that tact as being progress towards a dynamic future of innovation.

I think there is more to this chassis deal than meets the eye.

I don't find anything at all appealing about the irl, especially since the hulmangeorge clan still owns it, but even if that goes, I'm not seeing anything exciting here.

The owner's group was talking about areas that are fixed, and areas open to development. That sounds like a reasonable approach until the sport returns to health.

Maybe my expectations have fallen so far that something like this becomes cause for hope. Probably the greatest cause for hope is the team owners finally starting to take a little initiative. The sport was at its best when it was run by the people with gasoline running in their veins, and and this could be a small step back toward that.

[bjohnsonsmith]

The currant economic conditions won't allow for multiple chassis but by 2012 things should have improved, unless there is going to be a double dip recession, so it would make some sense for the IRL to start courting some other manufacturers with a view to building new chassis. Otherwise we are just going to have another spec series, the novelty of which will soon wear off. There is a rumour that Lola might be building a car for USF1, they would be a good candidate, what with their history in US open wheel racing.

[NaBUru38]

Wingless doesn't mean downforceless. Anyway, current Indy cars have too much downforce on 1.5-mile ovals. And wings create lots of drag, which goes against fuel efficiency.

[NaBUru38]

I would have created a new thread, but anyway. VAG wants to join a strong IndyCar, they don't want to be the ones who push it to first level. So it's either the Fiat/Chrysler group or just Honda.

[NaBUru38]

The IRL has little money, sponsors, media coverage and fan community. How could be expect four carmakers to want to supply high-tech engines and three coachbuilders to want to develop revolutionary chassis from scratch for a 20-car grid?

[Matador]

Hence Why I think they should forget the turbo engines and adopt Formula Nippon engines. DTM is looking to integrate with Super GT, which use FN engines (and are supposedly conform with LM 2011 rules). So there you have Toyota and Nissan besides Honda, as well as Audi (read... VW) and Mercedes and maybe BMW would join in.
Just my $0.02

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Hence Why I think they should forget the turbo engines and adopt Formula Nippon engines. DTM is looking to integrate with Super GT, which use FN engines (and are supposedly conform with LM 2011 rules). So there you have Toyota and Nissan besides Honda, as well as Audi (read... VW) and Mercedes and maybe BMW would join in.
Just my $0.02

But how does that address the problem of a single spec chassis, which is at the heart of the IRL's problem?

[awrb]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

But how does that address the problem of a single spec chassis, which is at the heart of the IRL's problem?

It doesn't, but it means engines will be readily available and much cheeper to develop, using the same logic as the FIA's world engine idea. Then all we need is a couple of other chassis and we've got a great series back.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by awrb

It doesn't, but it means engines will be readily available and much cheeper to develop, using the same logic as the FIA's world engine idea. Then all we need is a couple of other chassis and we've got a great series back.

But as far as I can tell the IRL are going to stick with a single manufacturer spec chassis, unless they've recently decided otherwise.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by awrb

It doesn't, but it means engines will be readily available and much cheeper to develop, using the same logic as the FIA's world engine idea. Then all we need is a couple of other chassis and we've got a great series back.

Thanks, that about sums up my thoughts.

[JagtechOhio]

A new engine spec is essential before future chassis configurations are contemplated, whether they come from Delta, Dallara, Swift, Lola, or anybody else.

No additional engine manufacturer is going to design a stressed engine to fit the current chassis, unless it is readily adaptable to the new chassis design...which hopefully will accomodate a non-stressed installation as well. That encourages variety.

There aren't any manufacturers interested in building racing engines for the IndyCar series. Honda is bored with it, along with realizing diminishing returns.

Initiating a V6 (or 4 cyl) program, when no other manufacturers are entering competition, is a waste of resources for Honda. They could design an alternate engine to fit the current chassis and an evolutionary chassis, and wonder why they bothered.

IndyCar can announce a new chassis design, and if it is a radical enough departure they will need new engines to accompany it. Honda reluctantly agreed to go to 4 cyl., and have backed off from that position which wasn't their choice from the get-go. That means IndyCar can't consider the Delta unless they approve an engine spec that can power it, and find someone with a reason to do so.

They're going to have to write a spec for a four cylinder, and open it up to any independant builder who wants to make the investment. That means the requirement for a builder to supply most of the grid will have to be ditched as well. Then you have a variety of engines, with the need to police them and possibly implement equivilancy restrictions. Good medicine, some side effects indicated.

Then they can see who wants to build a chassis around it, set a spec, and allow anyone who wants to build a car to meet the requirements to submit a design for crash testing.

Write the 4 cyl turbo spec, and builders can design it to fit the current chassis. With equivalancy, they can run against the Hondas. Then the new chassis can be designed to accept the 4 cyl engines, unstressed.

That works even if the decision for the new chassis is a Delta car. If the new chassis is instead an evolutionary one, call it SW 012, then you can have 4 cyl turbo SW 012's competing with four cylinder turbo Dallaras and V8 Dallara/ Hondas. The little guys can still run what they got, then phase in an engine program, and then install it in their new chassis when they can afford it.

So 2010 should bring reduced downforce and drag regulations, along with overtake assist that is more effective than they just hinted at (by lowering the base HP, not by modifying the peak output of the existing engine). All of that means minor ECU mapping, new sidepods and undertray, more driver car control required, and punch enough to pass on the straightaway. With enough skill and selective downforce levels, enough variety to pass in the corners, too.

2011, tubo four cylinders permitted. Equivalency established to match Dallara/ Honda 2010 performance levels.

2012, new chassis designs accepted after approval. If it's evolutionary, old Dallaras can still play too.

If not, the little guys are out.

That's my map, many people will try to pick it apart and no one above the level of chat room expert will listen.

[Félix]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Hence Why I think they should forget the turbo engines and adopt Formula Nippon engines.

AFAIK Toyota's and Honda's Formula Nippon engines are derived from their IRL designs. Same rules then? They said 6 or 4 cylinders...

[ger80]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Hence Why I think they should forget the turbo engines and adopt Formula Nippon engines. DTM is looking to integrate with Super GT, which use FN engines (and are supposedly conform with LM 2011 rules). So there you have Toyota and Nissan besides Honda, as well as Audi (read... VW) and Mercedes and maybe BMW would join in.
Just my $0.02

Well, think they should go for LMP2 engine which become LMP1 next year. Mazda, Porsche and Accura/Honda have one and there are more to come. Think you could run the Formula Nippon engines with small modifications in that ruleset.
About the chassis, well, create regulations and a cost limit and see who shows up.

[climb]

Honestly I need to have a draft draw of the resulting car; I fear it could turn oou tto be a horrible device

[bjohnsonsmith]

I would like to see it as well, I've seen all sorts of 'prospective' designs bandied about on the www. Hopefully Ben Bowlby will be obliging, soon.

[JagtechOhio]

You need to look at that a little closer. Bowlby didn't write that.

Speedway configuration Cd is currently in the .5-.6 range.

That kid is a moron, I just read the rest of it.

[bjohnsonsmith]

My mistake then.

[nickyf1]

Man, why can't they just get a normal single seater and let it naturally change, rather than making a futuristic hover car?

Surely a modified Superleage formula type car would do... Then we could pick up where Champcar left off

[bjohnsonsmith]

If I had my way, I'd get rid of those Dallara's give the teams a mixture of Reynard and Lola chassis, there have got to be quite a few knocking around and let them go at it.