[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[CTD]

Originally Posted by AGD

My initial reaction is that maybe this could help Petit, but that is actually quite unlikely. The Japan and China dates are too close together for it to make much sense unless a team decides to skip both Japan and China. That's unlikely to be either Toyota or Audi. Petit is SOL regardless it would seem.

As for Bahrain, I don't know. Perhaps the ACO would make the rules so that teams can't really take advantage of the "6 of 8" rule in order to cherry pick and skip the garbage races. Of course, Toyota would be allowed to do whatever they want. On the other hand, perhaps it's possible that the ACO does not care who shows up at Bahrain so as long as the meet whatever promoter's minimum there is. For all we know, they may just want the big bags of cash and not care if there is a legitimate race or not. I don't know. Dagys will supposedly have a story about Bahrain today. Today is the anniversary of the protests in Bahrain last year that led to the cancellation of the F1 race.

This is all speculation though. Who knows if the ACO will actually implement the "6 of 8" rule, but I guess the idea is being bounced around.

My question is if a "6 of 8" rule could have swayed Peugeot to stay. Unlikely, but who knows. Of course, it's Peugeot leaving that is causing this topic to be an issue so it's not really a fair question I guess.

Prisoners dilemma is going to make sure that we will see someone at Bahrain.
Imagine if Audi opted Bahrain out, then Toyota will be able the snatch an easy victory and score max points for the championship. The same if Toyota opts out.
If the championship is close and there is a opportunity to take WEC title, then we will see both Audi and Toyota running, and probably making quite a show of it!

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I think that the "6 of 8" rule is for one of two reasons: Toyota will miss Sebring, and them and Audi (who are running the troublesome old model R18s at Sebring) having the opportunity to drop 2 "bad" races off their score might help them out in the title hunt.

Also, Audi and Toyota (and likely most of the other teams) seem to be opposed to Bahrain. Unless the FIA/ACO cancel the race, Audi and Toyota might use this as an opting out to run PLM (they're the only teams capable of running PLM between Fuji and Shanghai realistically) or anything other than Bahrain. I'd bet that if Peugeot were still in the WEC, that they'd also be opposed to Bahrain. Audi, Toyota and the departed Pug effort had no major sales or promotional interest in Bahrain, and seem to be opposed, like much of the western world, to the unrest in that country.

And a question about Fuji: Will the WEC run the chicane that the F1 teams used, or will the run the Super GT layout with out the chicane?

I think you are correct in that it's a way for Toyota and Audi to drop low scoring races to maximize their points.

How ever, Toyota is a car often seen in news reports from the middle east, so they do have a market there.
Peugeot have a large market in Egypt and Iran.
So as far as i know it's only Audi who doesn't really have a market in the middle east.
IF Peugeot had chosen to run in Sportscars this year, i'm sure we would have seen a PR show to promote their brand.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

Imagine if Audi opted Bahrain out, then Toyota will be able the snatch an easy victory and score max points for the championship. The same if Toyota opts out.
If the championship is close and there is a opportunity to take WEC title, then we will see both Audi and Toyota running, and probably making quite a show of it!

Toyota has no chance to win the WEC manufacturers title. Audi can score with 3 cars in Le Mans (double points) and with 2 cars in the other WEC rounds. Toyota on the other hand can only score with 2 cars in Le Mans and with 1 car in other WEC rounds.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Toyota has no chance to win the WEC manufacturers title. Audi can score with 3 cars in Le Mans (double points) and with 2 cars in the other WEC rounds. Toyota on the other hand can only score with 2 cars in Le Mans and with 1 car in other WEC rounds.

Right. Plus, even if Audi skipped Bahrain, I would have to guess that they would run all the other races. Picking the best 6 out of 7 (or 8) is a better option than using all 6 without choice. The driver's title is more realistic, but I don't know.

As for Bahrain and Peugeot, it was rumored that Peugeot was not enthusiastic about the Bahrain date. The issue companies have with Bahrain isn't necessarily that they don't do business there (although that probably is a factor for some), but it's more that nobody wants to be seen supporting the Bahraini regime and the races in Bahrain are quite closely linked to the Bahrani government. That's why there is a lot of corporate opposition to F1 in Bahrain at the moment. The other factor that some bigwigs have made is that there isn't much cultural heritage for motorsport in some of these regions and so companies can't really maximize their investment by racing in those markets.

[Speed-King]

Just one thing: Audi will have quite a fleet of R18s by the time PLM comes around, so the logistics should be no problem for them at all.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by FstrthnU

I don't know if anyone's interested in this, but the ACO has released the official 2011 ILMC yearbook http://www.lemans.org/en/news/Relive...ok-__6172.html

Just to follow up on this quickly, my book arrived today and by what I can tell from flipping through it it seems to be excellent.

The only sad part is the big 908 advert on the back cover

[Articus]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

So we'll see essentially no teams at Bahrain and a massive Petit Le Mans grid? How bout that....

I like the way you think!

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Just one thing: Audi will have quite a fleet of R18s by the time PLM comes around, so the logistics should be no problem for them at all.

Well, they do need equipment to run them

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by CTD

Well, they do need equipment to run them

Do they ship that around anyway, or do they still have the old Champion/ASNA-equipment stored away somewhere in North America?

And really, getting equipment would not be the biggest hurdle, there are plenty of American teams they could team up with, even if were just an one-off.

[gwyllion]

A bit on the selection of Shanghai (instead of Zhuhai) and on the Bahrain round: Q&A With Gerard Neveu

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by AGD

Dagys is reporting a rumor that the WEC may allow teams (not sure in all classes or just P1) to only count 6 of the 8 races towards the championship. I'm not sure how Le Mans' double points would work with all of that, but you get the idea. I guess it's to allow Toyota to have a chance at the championship. Whether Audi may skip some races if that is the case, I don't know.

This is a good idea and I think this was a part of the ILMC as well. It allows manufacturers decide what is best for their brand and marketing while reducing cost. Rounds that have little interest from manufacturers, teams, fans, tv viewership, etc. would be potentially eliminated.

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

So we'll see essentially no teams at Bahrain and a massive Petit Le Mans grid? How bout that....

A nice thought but I don't think it will change anything. In these times teams will just skip rounds rather than attend other events.

[Sharp360]

The 6 from 8 scoring system involves dropped scores, its not an excuse to miss rounds and only the top finishing car scores manufactuers points in 2012 which gives Toyota a chance at the title

I don't know why theres a feeling teams would drop a WEC round non ALMS teams have reluctantly travelled to PLM in recent years as seen by entries before it was an ILMC round and thats before the race lost its international relevance.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

So we'll see essentially no teams at Bahrain and a massive Petit Le Mans grid? How bout that....

Won't happen for a number of reasons.

[chernaudi]

Only realistic grid additions would be Audi and/or Toyota, as they have the money and resources to do a trip to PLM, but that's not very likely at best. At least a 90% chance that won't happen, probably higher.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Just one thing: Audi will have quite a fleet of R18s by the time PLM comes around, so the logistics should be no problem for them at all.

The problem is that Japan, Petit, and China are on consecutive weeks. It would be very difficult to run a race in Japan, then run a race in the Eastern US, and then run a race in China with no downtime in between.

Originally Posted by JHamilton

This is a good idea and I think this was a part of the ILMC as well. It allows manufacturers decide what is best for their brand and marketing while reducing cost. Rounds that have little interest from manufacturers, teams, fans, tv viewership, etc. would be potentially eliminated.

A nice thought but I don't think it will change anything. In these times teams will just skip rounds rather than attend other events.

I don't believe the ILMC ever allowed this. The ELMS allowed teams (GTE teams only I think) to drop a round last year after the start fiasco at Ricard, but there was an obvious reason for doing that.

Originally Posted by Sharp360

The 6 from 8 scoring system involves dropped scores, its not an excuse to miss rounds and only the top finishing car scores manufactuers points in 2012 which gives Toyota a chance at the title

But yet the reason why the "6 of 8" rule is even being considered is so Toyota can cherry pick races due to their unwillingness to compete in all races. Ok, we get the reasons for Sebring, but there's nothing really stopping them from doing the other races other than the fact that Toyota may not want to do all 7 remaining races. I get it that the problem may be budgetary, but I'm sure skipping Bahrain or Brazil or something like that would help relive the budgets for other teams as well.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

A bit on the selection of Shanghai (instead of Zhuhai) and on the Bahrain round:

Today, there is nothing different if you compare Bahrain, Brazil, America and the rest.

Ha. Haha. Hahahaha. You can tell that Neveu was one of Bernie's former businessmen. The question is if Neveu is still doing Bernie's business or not.

[TF110]

I don't see an 'unwillingness' from Toyota to do all the rounds. I think they're just starting out and probably have a budget so their using their resources wisely. Perhaps with the enticement of the WEC they changed their minds. They already confirmed they're doing the whole WEC minus Sebring.

[KlBD]

Quick question: I thought LMP2 teams were only allowed to field 1 FIA Platinum-rated driver? According to the latest FIA Driver Classification (Feb. 9) Ryan Dalziel was a Platinum driver since last year, so how is Starworks allowed to run both him and Sarrazin in their lineup? (with BoP?)

[911targa]

JWA Avila with a new sites
http://jwa-avila.com/
Porsche Endurance Racing Team, likely they're going to take WEC and LM24 serious, nice to see this.

[deggis]

---

[deggis]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Toyota has no chance to win the WEC manufacturers title. Audi can score with 3 cars in Le Mans (double points) and with 2 cars in the other WEC rounds. Toyota on the other hand can only score with 2 cars in Le Mans and with 1 car in other WEC rounds.

At the same time with the 6 of 8 rumor it was mentioned in Autosport that only 1 car would score points. This obviously evens out the situation a lot.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by deggis

I don't get why you all seem to expect that the 6 of 8 equals chance to cherry pick races. Obivously tailor made rule for Toyota, and obviously they'll get a pass for missing Sebring, but the rule also allows them (and why not also Audi) to have one total fail race. I expect the mandatory participation to stay in the rules and definitely expect this to change back to the original rule for 2013.

Also these amendmends to the sporting regs are not yet official, while Toyota's participation is. Especially if FIA WMSC needs to stamp these changes (next meeting in March typically) then I think the whole 6 of 8 idea did not play big role in Toyota's decision.

It could be a case of the ACO wanting Toyota to be competitive in the championship more so (or equally so) than Toyota wanting to be competitive in the championship. Toyota having a chance would be a big boost to the ACO for marketing reasons.

If only 1 entry counts towards points, would it be the best finishing car or a pre-determined car selected by the team? In the case of the latter, it would still give Audi a pretty big advantage if they have two cars and Toyota has one in some of the races. But, yeah, you would hope that team orders would not become a factor.

As for the cherry picking situation, it depends on who is doing the cherry picking. If some random P2 or GTE team missed a race, well, they might not get an entry in 2013. Who knows if the "6 of 8" deal will be extended to non-P1 classes. We know Toyota will miss 1 race for sure. The ACO seems ok with that and we know why that is the case. If Audi skipped a race, well, what's the ACO going to do about it? It's a question of to Bahrain or not to Bahrain. I can't imagine Audi skipping any other rounds.

[deggis]

I removed my post because I forgot that in last week's Autosport:

A Toyota Motorsport GmbH spokesman said: "As a full-time entrant we are required to participate in six races, and we are expecting to do that number. At this stage the only race we are confirming we won't go to is Sebring [the WEC opener next month], but we can't confirm the rest of the schedule with the exception of Spa and Le Mans."

So that is one thing (unless Toyota only deal) and sounds like pretty confirmed, but how many races counts towards the championship is another thing.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by deggis

So that is one thing (unless Toyota only deal) and sounds like pretty confirmed, but how many races counts towards the championship is another thing.

It would be odd if only Toyota was allowed to drop races. Could I see the ACO doing it? Yes, but that would be rather odd and one-sided even by ACO standards. Then again, if only Toyota got that, would all the other P1 teams have to sign off on it?

I should revise a statement I made in my previous post, but it's too late to edit that one. "If only 1 entry counts towards points, would it be the best finishing car or a pre-determined car selected by the team? In the case of the former (said latter in the original post), it would still give Audi a pretty big advantage if they have two cars and Toyota has one in some of the races."

[gwyllion]

Maybe they are just allowed to skip 2 rounds without any fine, but all rounds will still count for the WEC title. Normally a fine of 30000 euro must be paid for every missed event.

Last year, teams were also allowed to skip the ILMC round, Sebring, if their new car was not yet ready.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Maybe they are just allowed to skip 2 rounds without any fine, but all rounds will still count for the WEC title.

I doubt Toyota is worried about fines. Who knows if the ACO would even bother sending the bill to Toyota. I doubt Toyota is worried about not getting entries for 2013 if they don't show up for every 2012 race either!

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by 911targa

JWA Avila with a new sites
http://jwa-avila.com/
Porsche Endurance Racing Team, likely they're going to take WEC and LM24 serious, nice to see this.

If the car pictured is the car they are using they cant be taking it that seriously with a 4 year old spec car.