JPM's poor performance

Valve Bounce · 23 Jul 2002, 04:58 (Ref:340295)

While JPM's was not the fastest car in the first stint, he was not that much slower than the Ferrari or the McLarens, and had no problems keeping them at bay when they were behind.
However, something changed at the second pit stop, and his pace was nowhere in the last stint, with the handling so bad that JPM was making lurid slides correcting for the car's poor handling.
I wound back the tape to the second pit stop and checked it frame by frame using freeze frame, and lo and behold, as soon as the car came in, two mechanics leaned over the front end and either adjusted the front suspension or the front wings (couldn't see which). Whatever they did had an adverse effect on the handling, and that was the end of JPM's podium chances. Even Coulthard's poor handling McLaren easily kept the Williams at bay after that. In fact, while we did not get any lap times, I am sure the Williams was at least two seconds a lap slower in the last stint.
Perhaps somebody with other than ITV coverage might shed some additional light on what happened.

Valve

f1manoz · 23 Jul 2002, 06:34 (Ref:340318)

VB,

No matter what you say, some people will just continuously blame JPM for his 4th place.

It's not like JPM would suddenly dip in performance. He always gives 100%. The problem on Sunday was definetely car and/or tyres.

Jack racer · 23 Jul 2002, 07:09 (Ref:340329)

I think they can find a good qualifying setup but not one for the race some teams have the opposite problem. They just don't seem to be able to get the tires to last.

z2252314 · 23 Jul 2002, 08:34 (Ref:340370)

Absolutely correct VB. JPM's car changed for the worst in that last stint, and hence ruined his race. However, even during the first stint, he could not pull away from Ferrari and Mclaren. His tyres were going off awfully quickly, costing him time, and thats due to the fact that Williams are a lot harder on its tyres. This however is great for qualifying, as their able to get a lot of heat into the tyres quickly. Until Williams rectify this situation, I think we can expect more of the same - Williams good in qualifying but bad in the race.

P.S This begs the question of why Ralf couldnt qualify any better than 5th if his car is supposedly good in qualifying?

The Answer: I think JPM has outpsyched Ralf once again. At the beginning, Ralf looked just as quick as JPM. But true to form, Ralf is slipping in the second half of the season. I see JPM dominating Ralf for the last 6 races.

DavidStHubbins · 23 Jul 2002, 08:50 (Ref:340381)

actually ralf was right behind montoya at the end of the race despite serving a penalty! Montoya is a fantastic driver but please guys, DO NOT put him in the Senna/Schumacher bracket!! Thats just silly.

Kex · 23 Jul 2002, 09:16 (Ref:340396)

Agreed.

Valve Bounce · 23 Jul 2002, 09:26 (Ref:340408)

Hey Guys, I am trying to determine the sudden drop off in performance after the second pit stop. This is a technical discussion, not a pro or anti JPM/SchM bash.

Valve [img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

**Adam43** · 23 Jul 2002, 09:44 (Ref:340434)

But this is the JPM/MSch bash forum isn't it

I think you are right that Montoya was slower after the second stop. As we see because Ralf was catching (they had been of similar pace all race up until that point). Maybe he thought that the tyres were worse and backed off slightly, because when Ralf got with 2-3 seonds he could match Ralfs pace again?

Did you see his slide out of Estoril - top stuff. The back stepped out and he turned it into a great slide! This was during the last stint. Going on what you said about the last stop, maybe the Williams mehanics put more front wing on and it made it a bit oversteery in the fast stuff?

Was DCs McClaren handling badly at the end? He set a few fastest laps and then backed off and was short shifting. I think he said in the pres conference that he didn't know why he as asked to do this. Either to save fuel or save the engine. Either way DC was comfortably ahead of Montoya.

Mr V · 23 Jul 2002, 09:45 (Ref:340437)

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidStHubbins
DO NOT put him in the Senna/Schumacher bracket!! Thats just silly.

Thats down to each individual IMO, but, as nobody had mentioned it in this thread, maybe, if you refrained from trying to persuade everybody not to make this comparison, nobody else would mention it!

Valve Bounce · 23 Jul 2002, 09:55 (Ref:340447)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AdamAshmore
But this is the JPM/MSch bash forum isn't it

QUOTE]

Certainly not on my threads. I try to avoid this childish nonsense.

The way I see it, posters are entitled to believe which driver is the best, usually their favourite drivers, and I respect that. OK, I draw the line on Alex Yoong, but I do try to save a good word for the guy.

Valve [img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

f1manoz · 23 Jul 2002, 09:59 (Ref:340449)

Whatever happens VB, in the past five races the Williams have lost something between Saturday and Sunday afternoon in terms of performance.

Valve Bounce · 23 Jul 2002, 10:09 (Ref:340459)

F1, the way I see it, a car can be set up to run one great lap for quals, but after that the tyres are shot. Ferrari used to do that for SchM, and Mika used to run faster during the race. It is intrigueing that Schm, who I consider to be the fastest driver over a single lap, does not get his car on pole these days. The most important thing nowadays, is to choose the right tyres for the race first of all, and if they are not that great for quals, then the driver copes. That's what SchM has been doing, and he has been winning by following this principle. It is more important to select the correct tyrs and get the best race trim for the car, and if that qualifies the driver on the front row - great. If not, there are pit stops and pit stop strategy to recover the lead, and that is where Ross Brawn comes in. Of course, one can also rely on the Williams pit stop foul ups these days, but if you look at the Ferrari pit stops, they are like clockwork.

Valve [img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

**Adam43** · 23 Jul 2002, 10:19 (Ref:340469)

In Magny-Cours Williams chose the hard(er) compound (unlike McLaren and most of the other Michelin runners, I think). So they were thinking about the race.

I think that they were hoping that race day would be hotter. Also they were probably forced into such a decision due to their car's characteristics. I don't think that Williams are concentrating on qualifying as such, in fact they seem to run more fuel than anyone else during practice. However I do think that the car has an inherent problem with tyre wear. This doesn't show up over one lap, but does in the race.

On the pitstops. It seemed to me that both of Montoya's pitstops were quite long because he had trouble getting away. However Ralf didn't have this problem. I wondered if he had a clutch (or something) problem. However I haven't seen this mentioned afterwards so maybe I'm imagining it!

Valve Bounce · 23 Jul 2002, 10:27 (Ref:340479)

Adam, I checked JPM's second pit stop on freeze frame, and JPM moved off as soon as the lollipop was raised, which was almost right after the refuelling rig was cleared. However, it was a slow 10.2 seconds bfore the car moved. Surprisingly, the adjustments which I referred to in the lead post did not affect the stop, as the two mechanics moved away from the car afer just 4.5 seconds.
As for setups for quals, it is interesting that the Ferrari has always proved faster during the race on each of the 5 occasions that JPM has put his car on pole.

Valve [img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

Mr V · 23 Jul 2002, 10:34 (Ref:340483)

Quote:

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
Adam, I checked JPM's second pit stop on freeze frame, and JPM moved off as soon as the lollipop was raised, which was almost right after the refuelling rig was cleared. However, it was a slow 10.2 seconds bfore the car moved.

I believe that at both stops JPM's car tried to "stall" the definatly seemed to be a "lull" in the engine note!

Quote:

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
It is intrigueing that Schm, who I consider to be the fastest driver over a single lap, does not get his car on pole these days.

Obviously your entitled to that view VB, but Mika was always regarded as faster over one lap and TGF faster over the race distance, JPM seems to have taken over from Mika in that role.

enemy-ace · 23 Jul 2002, 11:09 (Ref:340509)

In regards to Montoya's poor handling in the last stint, there is the possibility that the pitcrew softened his springs. Softer settings would decrease tire wear but make the car less responsive, especially in the quick stuff. That might explain his rather long lurid slide in Estoril, which is a quick corner requiring stiff suspension.
I find it rather peculiar that Williams are partially blaming the tires, saying they made the wrong choice. As far as I know they chose hard tires, if they chose the softs would they not go off that much quicker? So if they chose the softs would they not then have to change their car set-up or race strategy to deal with the different wear rates? Sounds to me that Williams are just trying to put a spin on things to try and detract from what is a tire-eater of a chassis.

Mr V · 23 Jul 2002, 11:14 (Ref:340515)

Quote:

Originally posted by enemy-ace
Sounds to me that Williams are just trying to put a spin on things to try and detract from what is a tire-eater of a chassis.

Agreed E-A, maybe they're saying they chose the wrong tyre in relation to McLaren who chose the softer but made it work! But with the way the Williams chassis seems to be, they're always going to choose the wrong tyre.

Red · 23 Jul 2002, 11:14 (Ref:340516)

Quote:

Originally posted by enemy-ace
[...]if they chose the softs would they not go off that much quicker? [...]

Not necessarily. A harder compound "slides" more than a soft, and it might increase the wear.

As for the topic. I believe that at least 2 other Micheliners made the same adjustments (David and Ralf) and they were on the front wing. It is my impression that Pablo's engine had some problems, once again.

Jack racer · 23 Jul 2002, 11:24 (Ref:340525)

That is right in some cases the softer tires are harder to slide and can sometimes last because of this. Wheel spin is the quickest way to overheat a tire.

z2252314 · 23 Jul 2002, 11:30 (Ref:340531)

When Ferrari and Mclaren were considered relatively even in terms of performance in 2000, didn't Michael have 9 poles compared to Mika's five? And wasnt Bridgestone the only tyre choice back then? I think Mika was extremely quick, and perhaps faster at times, but to claim that consensus was that Mika was quicker is open to debate in my opinion. I think JPM isnt as bad a racer as his results show. His tyres do seem to go away quickly in races (even quicker than Ralfs for some reason?), but this has also helped him on Saturday. Michelin concentrated on making a qualifying tyre for Monaco, which was smart thinking considering the track characteristics, but they havent yet got back to making a decent race tyre ( or at least one suitable for the hard wearing Williams cars). I think Williams need to be more like Mclaren - softer on their tyres. Yes, this will hurt come saturday, but at least JPM will stop being a no show on Sunday.

Speed · 23 Jul 2002, 12:42 (Ref:340630)

Quote:

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
Maybe he thought that the tyres were worse and backed off slightly, because when Ralf got with 2-3 seonds he could match Ralfs pace again?

Maybe he was nursing the car at the end of the race, when Ferrari/McLaren's advantage was sooo big...

**Stephen Green** · 23 Jul 2002, 15:14 (Ref:340749)

I thought the mechanics adjusted the front wings during the pit stop, at least that's the way it looked to me.

Having been on the pit exit lane during the British GP only two weeks ago, and right at the spot for the practice starts, I can tell you that the engine note changes significantly for each car as they go through the start process. That could be what you heard during the Williams pit stops.

Also, I seem to remember the commentators on ITV mention that JPM and RS were on different compound Michelins?

freud · 23 Jul 2002, 15:15 (Ref:340750)

Quote:

Originally posted by Red
It is my impression that Pablo's engine had some problems, once again.

I see. Was that information provided to you by Mario Theissen or Patrick Head?

Red · 23 Jul 2002, 15:17 (Ref:340753)

I did not say that this was a FACT. I said it was my impression.

freud · 23 Jul 2002, 15:24 (Ref:340761)

Ok.. sanity restored.

Comparing the straightline speeds of JPM and Ralf, I would say that there was no Engine problem. As I read a comment by James Allen somewhere, the rear tyres of the Williams were blistering rapidly and they were told to slow down a bit in end laps to reduce tyre wear.

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