Ideas for resolution to IRL/CART split

[captain crunch]

It seems a bit unlikely, but how about this?
IRL+CART cars run to same tech-regs
keep IRL all oval and us-domestic
keep CART mostly road and street with some non-us ovals and surfers'
have the indy 500 as a cross-over event with teams and drivers from both championships and count for points in both.
and names-IRL-Indycar national
and(unsurprisingly)CART-Indycar international
it'll probably never happen but it would mean the two series would be complimentary to each other.Manufacturers would'nt hae to pick which series to enter.Imagine it-lola,reynard,dallara,gforce,ford,honda,toyota,infiniti.........
would be nice to see

[sgw2]

There is no need to resolve it now. Chris Pook is taking CART out of the US. Road America appears to be on its' last year, with Fontana, Mid-Ohio and Laguna Seca not that far behind.

What the IRL needs to do is consolidate their position, and expand their fanbvase. The best way is to add two raod races at Sears Point (170,000 NASCAR ticket holders to tap - and adds the lucrative Northern California market), and Road Atlanta (adds another large Market). Perhaps Road America if CART drops it.

Such a move would swell the TV numbers (adds road racing fans, almost doubling the audience), and add two top 7 US Markets. That would leave CARt so marginalized that I think the retreat from the US would effectively end the conflict. Whether CART continued to exist or not would no longer be an issue, since they would be largely outside the US.

[rush1]

very good post sgw2, the IRL would do well do get another race on the west coast. Expanding the schedule to around 20 races (maybe 4 of those road circuits) would bring in fans who enjoy road racing. Having a race in Europe could help to attract more international corporations to the IRL.

I do wish TG would have a meeting with toyota, honda, lola, Reynard and others to plot a unified effort to kill the already wounded animal that is bptccwspbf. Offer financial incentives to guys like patrick and Hass to defect, pressure suppliers to leave, work with racing promoters to freeze out bptccwspbf events - whatever it takes. Bptccwspbf's demise would end the open wheel split for good

[GTRMagic]

The interesting bit is that G-force and Don Panoz seem to be running the ruler over the Reynard IndyCar chsssis, so they will have a foot in each camp.

[sgw2]

Panoz can go either way. And with him goes the Atlanta market, and a large Sportscar following.

I think IRL would be well advised to consolidate the US market. Toronto and perhaps Mexico City - lots of Mexicans in the US, especially in the West- are the only non-US venue I'd even consider.

The fatal flaw CART made was diluting their market focus. Sponosrs will only put up with one or two races outside their Sales territories (doesn't matter if another division of the same company does business there, it matters which division is paying the bills). This is what Kool, Marlboro, TRD (Toyota Sales USA), Delphi, Miller Lite, Budweiser and others all said was a major reason for dropping CART. They wanted US focus only, because that is the Slaes territory paying for the sponsorship.

IMHO by adding a couple of Road Races, but remaining 80% oval based, Indycar would stay true to it's form much like NASCAR, but greatly expand the demographics of its' fan base. It also allows them to expand geographically. Thus increasing the ROI for sponsors. This is roghly the same mix that CART had at it's peak. A US schedule, except Toronto and Surfers, and a 70% oval bias.

That is the formula that worked, and should work again. Go to heavy overseas or toward road racing and you start to lose the magic (I'm a road racer but I know the truth). Stay all oval and you fail to reach out to the CART fans who are not fanatics (the majority), and so you have only half a fanbase. Go overseas and you start to lose your sponsor support.

[Down F0rce]

CART is great road racing.
IRL is great oval racing.

They are both open wheel, but they are very different kinds now. I think they should stick to what they are good at, that way the hardcore fans of each series get what they want and the all-round race fans are also happy with two great products to watch.

The IRL should try to stick to the USA for now, as that's where are lot of the current sponsors want to advertise and the oval venues will appeal to the US fans, as oval racing is more popular there than road racing.

CART should forget the IRL; it has something else to go after - Formula One. It has the potential to beat F1, and a lot of fans are switching off F1 and watching CART instead. In 1993, CART was considered a rival to F1. (How much of that was based on Mansell though?) It can be again, it needs to lose a few US venues and gain more international ones, and therefore more international fans and sponsors.

I don't see a need for these series to join up again. They both have great futures ahead of them. Just my two cents.

[captain crunch]

The reason i said that i thought IRL should stay on the ovals is because i think the three major open wheel series should have different emphasis-
F1-road courses only+Monaco
IRL-ovals only
CART-halfway house with ovals and road courses plus a few street races

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by rush1
very good post sgw2, the IRL would do well do get another race on the west coast. Expanding the schedule to around 20 races (maybe 4 of those road circuits) would bring in fans who enjoy road racing. Having a race in Europe could help to attract more international corporations to the IRL.

I do wish TG would have a meeting with toyota, honda, lola, Reynard and others to plot a unified effort to kill the already wounded animal that is bptccwspbf. Offer financial incentives to guys like patrick and Hass to defect, pressure suppliers to leave, work with racing promoters to freeze out bptccwspbf events - whatever it takes. Bptccwspbf's demise would end the open wheel split for good

So when CART does that, its wrong because they aren't viable teams in themselves yet, but if the IRL does it, its ok? Open your eyes. I would say engage your brain but Republicans don't have them working.

[rush1]

Well, Labours Tony Blair seems to the think the Republican in the White Houses has a fully functioning brain otherwise he would not agree with him on Iraq.

[camcartfan]

Boots, you know nothing about American political parties, so keep to the topic.....mate!

Cheers!

[marcus]

keep it nice boys , its an interesting topic that deserves to be played out in full without and bickering , can we see if we can do that please

[captain crunch]

sgw2-carts fatal flaw was their reluctance to change the engine formula-developing the engines became so expensive that the cost was so much that cart was no longer value for money as far as the manufacturers were concerned.and i don't like the idea of cart playing second fiddle to f1.It propably never will equal the glamour and cash of f1 but it should be viewed as something different and should not be compared to f1.I suppose the three open wheel series should remain independant but as long as the cart/irl(and to a lesser extent,f1)all the series will suffer.My 2 cents

[captain crunch]

i meant as long as the cart/irl(and to a lesser extent,f1)split continues all the series will suffer.

[Tailwind]

Ooops. I must have stumbled into the wrong forum. I thought this was a racing forum. I didn't come here to talk politics...my bad.

[indycool]

sgw2, good posts. I agree that there's no merger in the works anywhere and doesn't need to be. As CART goes international, think the IRL might consider road courses. It certainly isn't going to consider road courses overseas. As CART goes international, as sgw2 said, they will wind up throwing away the Portlands, Lagunas, Road Americas, Mid-Ohios and the like.

The IRL going to Sears Point and Road Atlanta is a good idea when the time's right for one major reason: CART has never been there, and there's no stigma attached in those markets from the so-called war, although Road Atlanta would need some heavy work.

The IRL hasn't wavered from its concept of building open-wheel oval racing around the "500." One trip to Japan isn't going to lose that focus. A race or two on road courses isn't going to lose that focus. More than that (as it has done with CART) will and I don't see the IRL going there.

[The Snout]

Fact finding trips to Europe by TG tend to indicate that the IRL will have it's fair share of international events in time. Throwing away tracks like Nashville, Kentucky in the process.

http://www.etracks.freeserve.co.uk/News/news_id061.html

[sgw2]

I think IRL should stay US focused. And it should stay mostly oval. I repeat that was the formula CART had in the late 80s and early 90s when thy were as bifg if not bigger than NASCAR.

CART screwed up going overseas. For a long while they got away with it because Mercedes Benz, Honda and Toyota picked up the tab. Once CART lost the engine companies the economics caught up to them.

The IRL needs to avoid that same mistake, and stay US focused.

My opinion is the same for both CART and IRL on this. I have stated so for three years now.

CART is abandoning the US, but it is unclear they will be able to recover the revenues lost from the big US Corporate sponosrs. Having CART give teams $45 M (ESP plus cash authorized) simply to race will burn the series down quickly. CART lacks an Indy 500 to replenish the coffers.

IMHO F1 is making the exact same mistake as CART. By leaving the EU for other markets they become dependent upon the engine manufacturers and tobacco. Lose either one and the series dies rapidly. F1 is increasingly unattractive to EU based companies and Sales divisions because the TV ratings are down and fewer and fewer races are in Europe.

The reality is there are two big markets for sponsors, the US and the EU. CART is giving up one (the US) without becoming based in the other (The EU). F1 is flirting with the same dissaster the other way around, with the anti-EU schedule.

BTW, I think the UK Labour party is the one I'd vote for if I lived in England, and I'm a Conservative Republican. The reason is simple, they have actually carried out policies that are very similar to US Republican views. Most important of which was making the Central Bank more independent. Also the attempts to democratize the upper house and reduce the class status for more merrit based criteria agree well with mainstream American views of both the left and right. In short few Americans on either side of the political aisle would have issue with many policies carried out by Labour. Sorry if that doesn't fit what you expected to hear.

(As an American Scot I think the Scottish independence movement is a pretty dim bulb idea)

[rush1]

sgw2, your grasp of British poitics - policy is impressive

[sgw2]

Indycool,

Road Atlanta carried out modifications specified by the FIA to reduce the "hump" and have a modern safety measures and modern pit facilities that at least match those of Sears Point, and the newly rennovated Laguna Seca.

I dont have any doubts that Road Atlanta would be pass muster as is.

Anyway, CART in adding Houston and Estoril is likely to drop Road America and Mid-Ohio next year to make room. That should give the IRL all the cover they need to swoop up a huge group of displaced US road racing fans on the cheap.

Tony George hasn't had to fight at all. He simply picked up the pieces that CART dropped. This didn't start with Pook. But Pook has not changed the basic direction out of the US which got CART into such trouble in the first place. If anything he is accelerating the pace. I think you CARTisans in the US need to ask Pook why? You guys overseas need to recognize that each reduction in the American presence in CART, be it driver, owner, sponsor, or race track, has a negative impact upon CART's ability to stay viable in the US market. CART needs a base. And if it isn't teh US, then where?

CART' problems should also serve as a warning to the IRL.

[sirhc]

Perhaps CART's extension into foreign markets is alienating casual US road racing fans; however, this does not provide for an appropriation of that fan base and a "swoop up [of]road racing fans...on the cheap" by the IRL.
Adding Mid-Ohio or Elkhart Lake or Road Atlanta is analogous to NASCARs use of Sears Point and "The Glen"--these races alone do not provide for an extension of the fan base into road racing realms. A broader commitment has to be made. But this violates the pronounced doctrine.
Yet if the IRL is to remain specialized, it is not completely penetrating the available market and will remain the Mickey Mouse organization (to use a Gretzky term) of International Motorsports.
If they want to stay true to the original precepts, fine. But I will still be able to count the number of people at some of the races (read: lottery’s but I digress) before half-distance. Maybe they should follow the lead of the Bush Administration and hire some great PR people. Pure road racing fans will not bite token road courses while NASCAR converts and casual sports fans are few and far between.

Both series are struggling with identity issues.
Stick with the WRC.

[rustyfan]

My take on this;

IRL - Stick with the ovals and add only 1 or 2 road course (using the same basic concept the Winston Cup use). I'd love to see the IRL at, say, Lime Rock or Virginia Raceway. IRL shouldn't venture too far outside the US either - 1 or 2 races should be the max.


CART - Stick with what they're doing right now, concentrating on mainly road- and street-courses and just run a few ovals (which CART seems to utterly hate anyway). The number of street courses could be cut down a bit though, since some of the ones they used in 2002 were plain **** (sheeeesh, I can't even say CR@P??).

Suggestion to CART: replace Denver with Interlagos. That way you get rid of a bad track, bring in a much better one AND increase your international appearence.


With that said, I think 2003 will be a great year for both championships, and I can't wait for 'em to get started

[indycool]

sgw2, I agree TG will get good road courses in the U.S. "cheap" in time. In relation to Mid-Ohio and Road America, that would add two more tracks in an already-glutted midwest, but I believe road-racing fans would support them the same as they support NASCAR at Sears Point and The Glen because of the "500," which is what CART built its program around at those places, anyway.

Atlanta, though, is a funny sports town, and not a very good one. Road Atlanta still builds its Petit Le Mans and it's a successful event with all the renovations Panoz has made down there.

Atlanta, though, can't even sell out a home MLB playoff game. The Falcons don't draw well and Atlanta Motor Speedway has started to have a hard time selling out for NASCAR. It's a BIG sports town but not a very good one. Both F1 and CART have looked at Road Atlanta, named their price and Panoz has said, "no thanks."

I think TG will be very careful with what he does not to alienate the fan base he's already building on the ovals. CART going merrily off to Europe in May probably helps both CART and the IRL. They're going where they want without looking over their shoulders at the "500" and the "500" has May locked up in the U.S. in peace for the first time in seven years.

[The Snout]

If the IRL is only going to add 1 or 2 roadcourses it's not likely to pick up roadracing fans at all. 16 or so ovals and 2 roadcourses, hardly a roadracing fans dream. IRL has picked up a lot of Cart venues, Phoenix, Homestead, Fontana, Loudon, Nazareth, none of which have produced crowds for the IRL (save Nazareth 1st time around). Every 3rd word Pook uses is NAFTA, which doesn't indicate Cart leaving the North American market soon, their's a niche to be filled in roadracing which the IRL isn't planning on filling nearly enough any time soon. I don't really see Cart and the IRL as so direct competitors anymore and it's strange that the IRL doesn't see NASCAR as it's market competitor. Except for speed and fenders they offer a similar entertainment and look. If the IRL's best play is to piggy back off NASCAR and gain fans that way all well and good and they'll score fans that way. But any notion that a couple of token roadcourses will convert road racing fans by the truck load is wishful thinking.

[captain crunch]

I reckon both series should stick to what they're best at,ovals for irl and road courses for cart.i really cant stomach the idea of cart abandoning road america, that would be a real pity

[sgw2]

Snout,

Pook uses NAFTA becauuse the USA portion of the schedule has fallen to 50%, while Mexico and Canada account for 5 races and 8 drivers. Problem is the USA is over 90% of NAFTA. CART's NAFTA looks like a skinny doughnut with a big whole in the middle.

I think you don't realize how perilous CART's position is in the US. The fan base is badly split. When I go to the CART race at Laguna Seca I am always amazed how many people are looking for the Indianpolis 500 guys and who ask where are they, who are these guys? It is not shock to me the attendance has fallen.

If IRL did add a few road races the effect would be like that in NASCAR. The events would be must go to races, much as CART at Surfers is in Australia. The two biggest road races in the US by attendance are NASCAR at Watkins Glenn, NASCAR at Sears Point (over 170,000 on Sunday alone, ticket are $130 US and up for one day!). Nothing CART runs in the US or Canada comes close.

The split has eroded the US fan base to the point where Pook talks of leaving the great road circuits for the city streets and Europe. He will add Houston to Denver, Miami and St. Petersburg. The road races are the ones that will be axed.

The California fan base is up for grabs, and it is Toyota's #1 market, and TRD's HQ. Add an IRL race at Sears Point and it would get huge promotion, and with their NASCAR and ALMS mailing lists, a very large crowd. The Network TV coverage and proximity to SF and Sacramento means that race would dwarf CART at Laguna Seca.

It is a mistake to think the average fan is a diehard CARTisan. If they get a chance to see the Indycars, including Penske, Ganassi, Rahal, Andretti, and the like battle with the big names from both series (which is what IRL has now) and Toyota, Infineon, SMI and the like promoting, it will draw and draw big.

CART hardcore desperately want Tony George not to play this hand. But Penske, Toyota, Marlboro, Red Bull, and Rahal want it to happen.

Knowing Tony George, I would think it will only happen if CART drops Road America, because he is so slow and deliberate. Really it is in CART's hands. Drop RA and IRL will pick it and Sears Point up in a heart beat.