Schuey race wins total - 75 not out

[Mattracer]

It's quite apparent that MS can now get to 100 GP wins so you'd think it would be his reason for staying on. He claims he still loves racing and you can't dispute that- he's extremely good at it, has the best team with the best funding. Let's be honest too, the competition is fairly thin on the ground in terms of it's consistency- one team and driver can step up for a few races then is replaced by another in subsequent races. So far this season, it's been BAR and Button, Webber in qual at Malaysia and some flashes of form from Renault but still Ferrari marches on.

Compared with rivalries in the past, for a few years it was Damon Hill, then JV then Mika, then Kimi, but they were all different challengers with challenges that were not sustained and not really (if we're being really honest) of the same vehemence, intensity and often bitterness that were campaigned between Alain Prost and Ayrton Senna. JV and MS approached it but it was not as sustained.

[climb]

I still repeat that numbers don't mean that much: How many WDC has Gilles won? None.
How many races? A few.
Nonetheless he's a legend, more than MS will ever be.

[dcp2685]

Originally posted by fog_shadow
dcp2685,
you do have a point there. even as a MS fan, i got to admit that it does stink a bit if RB holds the rest of the field back and allows MS to drive off into the distance.

however it was at Malaysia 99 that Michael did the same for his then team-mate and you got to admit, having the much better McLaren behind him driven by Mika Hakkinen none the less, Michael did a ****ing brilliant job.

i suppose such tactics could be justified if your car is not as good as the opposition. and to be honest, when Ferrari was not dominnant, these tactics may have come into play, but i've yet to see this happen when Ferrari were the dominant team as in 2002 and 2004.

imo, barring Williams, most if not all other teams especially those at the top of the field use team orders to the benefit of one driver and the detriment of the other driver.

Wasn't 99 the year he broke his leg? And he let Eddie Irvine pass him to attempt to take the championship considering he didn't have a shot. Fair enough and you're right.

With regard to 2002 and 2004...you may be right bar Austria in 2002. But i'd say Williams and Renault may be the only 2.

[freud]

Originally posted by climb
I still repeat that numbers don't mean that much: How many WDC has Gilles won? None.
How many races? A few.
Nonetheless he's a legend, more than MS will ever be.

YES!!!!! Because people loved Gilles in his lifetime. You could hardly find anyone who's anti-Gilles... Gilles was a racer not a MANIPULATOR.


Any by the way... records dont downplay other drivers. Records are made of sweat and blood and workof a lifetime. When Senna died at Imola he was pushing hard for a 'win' and one win is a 'record', its worth something. Here we have a driver sitting on the best car, in the best pakage, with the most money, and a respectful/dutiful lapdog, winning again and again and again. It just too easy for MS to win a GP. Never in the history of motorsport, let alone f1, has any driver gotten such a package.

[krt917]

Originally posted by Glen
It is disingenuous in the extreme to take the fact that occassional team orders mean that all his races are gifted to him - it is in fact an extremely race occurence. Rubens just can't get near Schumacher this year, simple as that and nthing to do with these contracts that all you priviledged guys have apparently seen.

Absolutely spot on Glen. The whole 'team-mate' as a lapdog thing is way over done. The point is that a vast majority of the time, Schuey has simpliy bean better than his team-mates. And on the occassions when they've been close, it's often been because the car is so good, and that is because Michael has worked hard to get it that way. Which brings me to my next point....

Originally posted by freud
I really think that its an irony that all-time f1 records (50 years or so of sweat and blood) are being blown away so easily.

I hardly think it's been easy. What they have at Ferrari is a fantastic package, largely DUE to the work of Michael. Just ask Frank Willams and Patrick Head what they think of Michael's work-rate. The way some people go on, you'd think Michael came into F1 and was given the best cars straight away!

[krt917]

Originally posted by freud
Any by the way... records dont downplay other drivers.

This is absolutely true. However, iimes feel that the fact that Michael's winning stats are so impressive is, somehow, used as a way of criticising him.

Originally posted by freud
Here we have a driver sitting on the best car, in the best pakage, with the most money, and a respectful/dutiful lapdog, winning again and again and again. It just too easy for MS to win a GP. Never in the history of motorsport, let alone f1, has any driver gotten such a package.

Most title are won by the driver in the best car. Some, like Fangio and Senna chased the best package they could to do their winning. Others, like Stewart and Schumacher, built up a competitive situation from a weak(ish) one. I'm not arguing which one is better (though I have an opinion ), but you should ask yourself WHY has Michael 'gotten such a package'?

And as for the lapdog bit, see above. Or do you think that Irvine and Barrichello would have won 70 odd GPs between them had it not been for that horrible contract which saw them give up wins to that lucky Schumacher bloke every other weekend?

[freud]

Look, I dont think there is further discussion needed on this issue. If you read the entire context of my posts you will realize that I DONT blame MS for the wins... I have blamed Ferrari's policy and strategy of winning titles. They dont want their two drivers to fight and MS is the apple of their eyes, their meister, their whatever..

I dont blame the MS fans at all as I do think you have all the right to be happy on his wins. Afterall there is no driver on the grid who wouldnt love to be in shoes of MS. However had Ferrari chosen a more fair approach to racing, MS would've won few less, the second driver a few more, but people like ME, (who love racing and competition and who think that winnning is not everything its how you win) have remained faithful to Maranello. I was a Tifoso till the days of Jean Alesi. Not anymore. Again.. whatever. My last post on this thread.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by fog_shadow


however it was at Malaysia 99 that Michael did the same for his then team-mate and you got to admit, having the much better McLaren behind him driven by Mika Hakkinen none the less, Michael did a ****ing brilliant job.

Michael did a brilliant job in Maylasia no doubt, but the fact that Ferrari won the WCC without Michael racing for 6 races points to the fact that the Ferrari was the better car in 1999, and has remained so ever since.

[Gt_R]

DCP, surely you are not serious about RENAULT not having team orders and such...ask Flavio what he did to dear Wurz (even if it's under the Benetton banner, the main people in the team is the same).

[krt917]

Originally posted by Mr V
Michael did a brilliant job in Maylasia no doubt, but the fact that Ferrari won the WCC without Michael racing for 6 races points to the fact that the Ferrari was the better car in 1999, and has remained so ever since.

It didn't regularly look the best when he wasn't in it though. And the reason Ferrari won the WCC was because McLaren fell over themselves in 1999 trying to come up with ways to lose the title! Some were mechanical problems (which might come into your 'better' car point), but some were driver errors, like Hakkinen at Imola and Monza and Coulthard at Nurburgring.

Freud, fair enough. Your posts rather gave me the impression that you thought Michael won because of the second driver helping him. I would certainly see him as an even greater driver if he had had some quick 'unleashed' team-mates, but I don't think that aspect has really had that much of an effect on Schuey's career against the team-mates he has had. He's just been better than them - 99% of the time.

[Panzer]

Some of you people make it sound like Michael only wins because his team mate is held back. What rubbish! Name a team mate that could challenge Michael on a regular basis. He has never had one. Senna won three WC always in the class car on the field, like Prost as well. Michael has won six and at least three of those in a car that wasn't the class of the field. Get of his back, and enjoy watching the best driver of all time.

[Snrub]

IMO how you win is more important than actually winning. MS has had ~95%+ of his success in a manner that no one can question. I think what taints his record in the minds of many is why would someone with his record reduce himself to such tactics at any time? He doesn't need it and neither do Ferrari. I think he should INSIST that RB gets equal treatment.

[1 Lotus]

. . . when did Ferrari tell a driver who's ahead of MS in the championship standings to ease up and assist MS?

When has this situation ever come up?

[freud]

I promised not to get back on this thread.. but sorry guys here's something I couldnt resist posting..

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040517/13/3vzt.html


Colombian Juan Pablo Montoya, meanwhile, claims he is talented enough to not require a driver like Ferrari's Rubens Barrichello to contractually support him. "Don't need it," he snapped at reporters. "You can either do your job or you cannot. Simple." It must mean you're scared, I think."


In one swift stroke, then, the 28-year-old ruled-out the possibility of ever becoming a driver like Barrichello, even if it meant steering the fastest car. "I'd rather just race go- karts."

Must say that both Juan Pablo and Trulli have got some character...

Renault's Jarno Trulli agrees, "but on the sporting side, I'd say no."

[fog_shadow]

lol, just how twisted was Moan-to-ya's face when he said that? must have been eating the most sour grapes ever.

i have a lot of respect for the whiner when he drives. the same cannot be said when he opens his face hole to whine and *****.

[Gt_R]

The media threw a bait..the drivers took it.

Michael was offered the star driver role for Ferrari, and he took it. Quite simple really.

And contary to what JPM say, Michael was offered such a benefit because Michael earned it and is worth it.

JPM? Yeah..full of character...now perhaps he can convert it to results and put his "talents" to good use than talk and talk and talk.. Isn't he the driver who wanted Ralf to give way because Ralf's on a different strategy....and complained Ralf isn't a team player when he didn't?

To summarize ''But if it's there and available, you have to take every advantage.'' It's available to Michael, not to Montoya...

[Andrew2001]

Originally posted by freud
Climb.. I am afraid MS's records ARE shading the big names already and thrashing each and every record in the books (except for may be the pole position).

I just wish Ferrari top brass had the moral courage to realize and change this. Patrick Head opined the same same time ago.


Fog, I am afraid you arent getting to the logic behind the thread. We all know MS is great. He's got good hair and chin and yes he drives well. But so did Prost and Senna and Stewart and Mansell and Villeneuve and 100s of others who have drove before him. Point again is that if MS had achieved all that he has with a teammate like a JV or a JPM or a Kimi or an Alonso or a Mika or even a DC, I would've applauded him. You and I well know what treatment Rubens get at Ferrari. Have you forgotten his famous words after Austria 2002 that Ross Brawn hardly even spoke to him during his first season with Ferrari (year 2000)??

I am not goin to bother reading the whole thread because i agree with freud. I posted my view on teh 2nd post, but, the point is, could Schumacher have mounted this many grand prix victories, poles and general ownership of the front of the grid if he had of been teamed with a very quick driver, I don't need to mention names because we all know who is good and who isn't on the current grid, and even just a few seasons ago (Hakkinen and Villeneuve).

It is down to HIS ability that he has got this situation whereby his team mate carries out his very command, and it is HIS mental toughness (or bigheadedness) that he has got a situation like no other in Formula 1. Has he cheated to get this position, no, I don't believe so. But has Ferrari's (Schumacher's) way of running the top 2 cars on the grid F****ED up F1 temporarily?


YES.

So, based on this, how you honestly so confidently say he is the best in current F1, never mind history? Yes, he is very quick, and a good leader for his engineers, but what I really rate about him is his ability to adapt to drive on the piece of track he occupies at the time, and clearly, just how smart he is.
But none of that makes him capable of beating Villeneuve, Raikkonen, Hakkinen or Fisichella or Montoya by anything like a margin if he had a tough team mate like every other world champion has had.

Hakkinen never had his own way, in fact, I admit myself that I got frustrated seeing DC taking that win at Spa in 99, and of course, Austria where DC put Mika off the track while goin for the inside.
THIS is what we pay to say, THIS IS what F1 is all about, and if we are not able to watch the best two rival teams in F1 fight it hard, we shoulkd still be treated to a ding dong battle for supremacy within the two best cars, just as we have in the history of F1 with a host of drivers.
Villeneuve is a fighter, I believe he'd have been all over Schumacher for the championship had he ever gone to FErrari to replace Irvine.

So there you go, just bringing all the Schumacher fan's heads down to earth again. You really need to LOOK at the races over the years, and see just how Schumacher has conducted his championship challenge. Facts however, are facts, so you have to hand it to him for what he has achieved.
But the FACT is himself and Ferrari have ruined F1 in the short term. Not to mention all the dirty issues that have blunted any McLaren/Williams charge in recent times.

So enough **** about changing rules, and bull**** Mr Ferrari fan Max Mosley, and lets all start a public ***** fest regarding Ferrari, with everyone in the entire F1 community calling for Schumacher to stop being such a big puss and get rid of Barrichello, and welcome Montoya or Villeneuve into the team, while the Ferrari is still faultless, while its not too late. And lets see how good you REALLY are.
He'd get his ****en ass kicked.

[Andrew2001]

And finally from me, you say Senna chased for the best car....Christ why are so many people so poorly educated...Did you not notice the disappearance of Lotus from the front of the grid in 1987 to fighting against Marchs in 1988, to oblivion in 1989? ohhh, thats right, SENNA overtook Prost (Senna in a Toleman Prost in a McLaren) in his first race (or 2nd i cant remember I was only 2 years old) at the 1984 Monaco Grand Prix. And it was Senna who walked over everyone to his first GP win in 1985.
And it was Senna who beat Prost in 1988, both takin most of the wins that year, and it was Prost who as someone here said, fought like a trojan for every one of his victories. Another one with a very, very smart cool head.

This is pointless to say, but if Damon Hill could get within 1 point of Schumacher in 1994, what could Senna have done.....

So why did Ferrari hire Irvine, and then Barrichello? Simple, a reliable driver to pick up the points behind Schumacher's victories.

It is Ferrari to blame for this situation, and not the rules themselves, or technology, or Bernie. So I take my respect I have had for Ferrari and shove it up Todt's ass because I hate them. I sure as hell know what Enzo would have had to say about this one driver wins all ****.
It's US that is being cheated here folks, not anyone or anything else.

[krt917]

I could say quite a lot on what you have posted Andrew, but I have a feeling we'll all end up just repeating ourselves, so I'll limit myself to this part:

Originally posted by Andrew2001
And finally from me, you say Senna chased for the best car....Christ why are so many people so poorly educated...Did you not notice the disappearance of Lotus from the front of the grid in 1987 to fighting against Marchs in 1988, to oblivion in 1989? ohhh, thats right, SENNA overtook Prost (Senna in a Toleman Prost in a McLaren) in his first race (or 2nd i cant remember I was only 2 years old) at the 1984 Monaco Grand Prix. And it was Senna who walked over everyone to his first GP win in 1985.
And it was Senna who beat Prost in 1988, both takin most of the wins that year, and it was Prost who as someone here said, fought like a trojan for every one of his victories. Another one with a very, very smart cool head.

I don't believe anyone is saying that Senna wasn't fantastic in uncompetitive cars - or wasn't fantastic against great team-mates. He did, however, chase the best cars. That's not a criticism - most drivers do. He left Toleman and went to Lotus because he thought they'd be stronger. He left Lotus and went to McLaren - with the Honda engine - because they WERE the strongest and he offered to drive for nothing at Williams because he'd got fed up just picking up the odd win against them in 1992. Schumacher has done what Senna did not do - helped take an underperforming team with potential to world titles.

Lets face it, both methods have proved pretty successful.

As I said before, it would be nice to see Schumacher taken on by the likes of Mika, JV and Montoya, but if you really think Schuey would get his 'ass kicked' then I reckon you may be suffering from wishful thinking.

[freud]

Originally posted by Andrew2001

It is Ferrari to blame for this situation, and not the rules themselves, or technology, or Bernie. So I take my respect I have had for Ferrari and shove it up Todt's ass because I hate them. I sure as hell know what Enzo would have had to say about this one driver wins all ****.
It's US that is being cheated here folks, not anyone or anything else.

Completely agree with you there

krt - you miss the whole point. Who's saying that Schu is a bad driver??