Stoner vis-a-vis any other Ducati rider

**Born Racer** · 13 Apr 2009, 18:56 (Ref:2439934)

I find myself wondering if Stoner may be the most talented rider, more so than Rossi. Melandri couldn't get on with the Ducati, and of course we should give Hayden time, but the signs are ominous.

Is there just a very particular sweet spot on that bike that Stoner's found and made work for him, or moreover is he a far superior rider?

jhansen · 13 Apr 2009, 19:14 (Ref:2439948)

Oh dear. Chunder, please don't read this thread...

I think Stoner is talented for sure. But it's a bit of a stretch to say he's a superior rider. I think he's found a good home at Ducati. And Ducati were willing to listen to his input. I think the Ducati has been engineered around him, which certainly helps. And he got on well with the Bridgestones, which helped a lot in 2007.

Could Rossi do what Stoner does on the Ducati? I'm not so sure. But I have a hard time believing that Stoner would wipe the floor with Rossi if both were on a Yamaha.

With that said, I'd say for sure he's better than Melandri, Hayden, Barros, and the other Ducati wannabees.

**Born Racer** · 13 Apr 2009, 19:23 (Ref:2439953)

Quote:

Could Rossi do what Stoner does on the Ducati? I'm not so sure. But I have a hard time believing that Stoner would wipe the floor with Rossi if both were on a Yamaha.

But if Rossi couldn't do what Stoner's doing on it, that implies Rossi is not as good a rider, or at least not as versatile. However, Rossi can go on a charge from behind the likes of which I haven't seen Stoner do.

I am not the most experienced fan of Moto GP, having been following it just a couple of years, so forgive any 'amateur' questions.

jhansen · 13 Apr 2009, 19:29 (Ref:2439956)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

But if Rossi couldn't do what Stoner's doing on it, that implies Rossi is not as good a rider, or at least not as versatile. However, Rossi can go on a charge from behind the likes of which I haven't seen Stoner do.

If Stoner hadn't been so crash oriented in 2006 I'd give him more credit. And obviously, I have no idea how Rossi would do on the Ducati. As I said, this is very specultive and pretty much pointless. I give Stoner the edge on raw speed and starts. Rossi trumps on race craft and grit. Splitting hairs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I am not the most experienced fan of Moto GP, having been following it just a couple of years, so forgive any 'amateur' questions.

Says it all really.

chunder · 13 Apr 2009, 21:33 (Ref:2440052)

Lol

When he has won 7 titles he will be there

Oh and then he has to go back and win 125 and 250 titles too!!

No contest even if he is perhaps a match in speed now!

**Born Racer** · 13 Apr 2009, 22:51 (Ref:2440089)

Hmm, but I'm talking about their respective talents, not what they've achieved up to now. I know the numbers, I know the stats, but I'm wondering about absolute ability, and Stoner looks to be well up there.

jhansen · 13 Apr 2009, 23:33 (Ref:2440105)

I don't think anyone is saying that he isn't well up there. At least I'm not. But it will never be proven unless they are on the same machinery at the same time. And that aint gonna happen.

DavidStHubbins · 14 Apr 2009, 05:14 (Ref:2440174)

Stoner has hosed all other Ducati riders. No question. But if he were on a Honda or a Yamaha he wouldn't be winning anywhere near as much. The Ducati is a different bike to the Japanese bikes, with excellent electronics, awesome power and hooked up to the Bridgestones since year Zog. I think the Ducati is the fastest bike out there, but certainly not the easiest. Only Stoner can access the full potential. If Rossi, and not Stoner, had moved to Ducati 3 (4?) years ago I think Rossi would be doing a similar job. But we'll never know.

Rossi and Stoner on Yamaha? Rossi. No question!

manwell · 14 Apr 2009, 06:22 (Ref:2440188)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidStHubbins

If Rossi, and not Stoner, had moved to Ducati 3 (4?) years ago I think Rossi would be doing a similar job. But we'll never know.

Rossi and Stoner on Yamaha? Rossi. No question!

How can you say Rossi on a Ducati would be doing a similar job as Stoner, but if Rossi and Stoner were both on Yamaha's then it would be Rossi in front?

How do you come up with that!?
If anything it would be the other way around.

Many people have ridden the Ducati and struggled.
Stoner being the only one who's really excelled.

On the Yamaha however, Rossi, Lorenzo, Edwards and Toseland have all had a pretty good run on them from time to time.

Casey also did a good job on a single entry 'B Spec' Honda in 2006, so you cant just say he's good because he's on a Ducati.

bestfit · 14 Apr 2009, 06:30 (Ref:2440190)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidStHubbins

Stoner has hosed all other Ducati riders. No question. But if he were on a Honda or a Yamaha he wouldn't be winning anywhere near as much. The Ducati is a different bike to the Japanese bikes, with excellent electronics, awesome power and hooked up to the Bridgestones since year Zog. I think the Ducati is the fastest bike out there, but certainly not the easiest. Only Stoner can access the full potential. If Rossi, and not Stoner, had moved to Ducati 3 (4?) years ago I think Rossi would be doing a similar job. But we'll never know.

Rossi and Stoner on Yamaha? Rossi. No question!

I respectfully disagree.

I don't get how a rider who is incredibly fast on a bike which, from all evidence is extremely difficult to ride, would then be slower if riding a more nimble, better handling bike.

At this very minute I would back Stoner over Rossi if they were both on Ducatis or both on Yamahas or both on Hondas. It may not have been so in the past and it may not be in the future, but right now I think Casey Stoner is the best rider in MotoGP.

But it's all just speculation.

DavidStHubbins · 14 Apr 2009, 07:46 (Ref:2440239)

Because the Ducati is the fastest bike but also the hardest. The yamaha just isn't as quick but is easier to ride. So Stoner would hit a wall. The Ducati has the greater potential but close to impossible to access it.

No-one, bar Lorenzo, has come close to Rossi on the Yamaha - if we look at race results and end of season points tallies. And Rossi has had better team mates than Stoner! Lorenzo is A-category, Edwards B, Hayden B+, Loris is old and riding for his pension and having fun!

Manwell said "Casey also did a good job on a single entry 'B Spec' Honda in 2006, so you cant just say he's good because he's on a Ducati."

I didn't! You have black-and-whited the gist of my post! Geez, Louise...

Dani Filth · 14 Apr 2009, 09:20 (Ref:2440292)

Quote:

Originally Posted by manwell

How can you say Rossi on a Ducati would be doing a similar job as Stoner, but if Rossi and Stoner were both on Yamaha's then it would be Rossi in front?.

Rossi at Ducati will also have Jeremy next to him .. so that bike sooner or later will suit Rossi(and probably on a degree Melandri or Hayden) just like it suits Stoner now ..
both on the Yamaha .. i don't think there is somebody to challenge Rossi race after race

HDTVKSS · 14 Apr 2009, 10:05 (Ref:2440318)

"Rossi at Ducati will also have Jeremy next to him"

ok thats umm nice. Burgess is a great engineer, we all know that. sooooo by that statement the Yamaha is engineered around Rossi yes? you cant deny that it would be to a very large extent. just ask the wall in the garage.

"The yamaha just isn't as quick but is easier to ride. So Stoner would hit a wall. The Ducati has the greater potential but close to impossible to access it."

soooo a bike that is easier to ride, and is fast and winning races, is slower than a bike thats winning, but hard to ride?? and the guy thats getting the harder to ride bike in a winning position is slower than the guy getting the easier to ride bike to win?? ke?

"The Ducati is a different bike to the Japanese bikes, with excellent electronics, awesome power and hooked up to the Bridgestones since year Zog"

sooooo that Japs has no electronics capability? LOL. arent they all running similar electronics systems anyways? pneumatic valves, big bang engines etc are all present on the jap bikes, but not the Duke. if you were talking WSBK electronic advantages a couple of years ago yer maybee id agree but not in GP. you snooze, you lose.

As for the Bridgestones, everyone had their choice. not long ago the Michellins were hosing everyone. times change.

"Loris is old and riding for his pension and having fun!"

i dare you to tell Capirex that!

So stoner takes it to the best of all time, more consitantly than anyone else with the possible exception of Gibernau and is pants still huh? right. yer he must be rubbish.... lol

Knowlesy · 14 Apr 2009, 12:10 (Ref:2440412)

Rossi is far superior to Stoner. So superior it hurts.

Put Stoner on any other bike and he'd be as he was in 2006.

**Born Racer** · 14 Apr 2009, 12:16 (Ref:2440418)

Some people seem to have a chip on their shoulders about the possibility that Stoner may be quicker than Rossi. I wonder if it's because people don't think Stoner has Rossi's 'charm' or something.

Either way, some people in this thread have made a good point about how it doesn't seem to make sense to suggest that Rossi would automatically have the beating of Stoner on the Yamaha, if indeed the Ducati is harder to ride, or has very particular demands of the rider to get the best out of it.

Knowlesy · 14 Apr 2009, 12:50 (Ref:2440434)

It isn't a charm thing. Stoners complete lack of personality and warmth is nothing to do with his racing ability.

He is good there is no doubt, but he has a long way to go to reach Rossi. Come back in a few years when he does what Rossi did in 2004.

HDTVKSS · 14 Apr 2009, 12:52 (Ref:2440437)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Put Stoner on any other bike and he'd be as he was in 2006.

yer hed be dragging the bike up the grid to places it has no right being in

so what if he crashed a bit in 06. he raced well enough to get a factory ride and win a championship the following year.

IIRC 06 wasnt Rossi's best year either...... and that was with a factory team built around him and Burgess.... Pedrobot even tried to help him out by taking out Hayden!

Knowlesy · 14 Apr 2009, 12:55 (Ref:2440441)

Places it had no right being in? He rode a Honda which was a fine bike. Fine until it was rolling around in a gravel trap exploding into a million bits.

Rossi was pretty decent in 2006, by far and away the quickest rider and would have coasted to the title but for mechanical maladies.

Was glad he didn't though as it was nice to see Hayden win it.

**Born Racer** · 14 Apr 2009, 12:59 (Ref:2440443)

Hayden, lovely guy though he seems, seems a bit crappy, last year and (there's a long way to go) so far this year.

HDTVKSS · 14 Apr 2009, 13:00 (Ref:2440447)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Rossi was pretty decent in 2006, by far and away the quickest rider and would have coasted to the title but for mechanical maladies.

Like at Valencia right?

Knowlesy · 14 Apr 2009, 13:02 (Ref:2440452)

No, that was a crash of Rossi's making.

There was also the Assen practice crash.

bestfit · 14 Apr 2009, 14:31 (Ref:2440514)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Rossi is far superior to Stoner. So superior it hurts.

Put Stoner on any other bike and he'd be as he was in 2006.

That is purely an opinion, which you are entitled to, but what do you base it on?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

He is good there is no doubt, but he has a long way to go to reach Rossi. Come back in a few years when he does what Rossi did in 2004.

I see this as a discussion on what is happening now, not what has happened in the past. Rossi's record is phenomenal but not entirely relevant to the current season. The only pertinent comparison between Rossi and Stoner is seasons where they have actually competed against each other ie. 2006-2008. In those 3 seasons they are very very close. Rossi 18 wins 1 WC, Stoner 17 wins 1 WC.

Whether Stoner ever matches Rossi's records will not be known for many years but there is a battle happening now which will add a piece to the puzzle.

As I said previously I think that based on current performance Casey is the stronger rider at the moment. Since the last race at Valencia last year the two have been on the track together in timed sessions on 16 occasions. (tests, FP, QP WUp, race). Of those 16 sessions Stoner has finished ahead of Rossi 15 out of 16 times. The only time Rossi has finished in front of Stoner was day 1 of the Jerez test by 0.045 secs. This may seem to be of little consequence and maybe it is, but I bet they are both aware of it.

Ducati have admitted that they stuffed the GP8 last year and spent the first half of the season making it competative. This year the GP9 has been quick in every session since it hit the track at Valencia last year (only for Stoner). The whole package looks very strong. They no longer have the outright top speed advantage (Rossi 332, Stoner 331), which means Casey is making his time through the corners. So the GP9 must have improved its' handling.

With them starting this strong I believe Stoner will win the rider's championship, Ducati will win the manufacturer's championship, but Fiat Yamaha will win the teams championship because Nicky won't score enough points to get Ducati across the line.

Guessing is always fun.

MarkkuAlen86 · 14 Apr 2009, 14:55 (Ref:2440528)

I hope we aren't basing this thread on Round One, it never is a true indication of the season to come, and it's very much a Stoner/Ducati track.

I'm a fan of both riders, but I think part of Casey's success at the moment is due Ducati making the bike how Casey likes it, hence why nobody else can ride it as well. He's very fast, but in my opinion it will take a while before he's at Rossi's level.

For me too, Yamaha never seem consistant in making a very good motorcycle, like Vale got at Honda. Either the engines down on power or ruining the tyres, or the chassis isn't as good, where Casey seems to have developed to the Ducati, which of course it nothing against him, if he develops the better bike, he wins. That's up to Valentino and Yamaha to sort out.

For me though, Vale is a far better motorcycle rider all round.

jhansen · 14 Apr 2009, 15:08 (Ref:2440535)

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