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Old 13 Nov 2011, 02:37 (Ref:2985160)   #26
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Prototypes at Zolder would be something to behold
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 02:37 (Ref:2985161)   #27
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Le Castellet, Zolder, Donington, Brno, Portimao
Portimão?! Are you sure of that?
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 02:39 (Ref:2985162)   #28
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Portimão?! Are you sure of that?
A very good source says so!
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 03:27 (Ref:2985209)   #29
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A very good source says so!
I believe so...

Just wondering from where the money comes from.
Portimão Circuit Director said in the end of 2010 that the LMS was to much expensive, but 40% of the budget came from public funding...
There is no more public funding.
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 10:04 (Ref:2985475)   #30
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Any thoughts on dates for the LMS? I might try and make both UK endurance races...
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 12:32 (Ref:2985524)   #31
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Some LMS teams will probably race at Silverstone as guests. The WEC will have more than 25 cars I'm quite sure. The LMS too probably, but we will have to wait and see.

That's not too bad. It's actually pretty good. Something in Germany and/or Italy would have been nice, but oh well.

Donington Park does not have the Dunlop Bridge anymore, does it?
Unbeliavable. LMS had more than 50 cars just two years ago; mostly privateers in lmp1 and lmp2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Le_Mans_Series_season

but, at that time there was no world championship

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Old 13 Nov 2011, 12:37 (Ref:2985525)   #32
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Forgot the GFC have we?...
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 13:13 (Ref:2985538)   #33
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Unbeliavable. LMS had more than 50 cars just two years ago; mostly privateers in lmp1 and lmp2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Le_Mans_Series_season

but, at that time there was no world championship
No talk like that, there are those who believe the World Championship is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Looks like another FIA way to screw over Sportscar racing to me.
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 13:15 (Ref:2985539)   #34
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Unbeliavable. LMS had more than 50 cars just two years ago; mostly privateers in lmp1 and lmp2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Le_Mans_Series_season

but, at that time there was no world championship
A significant number of them did just a race or two.
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 14:51 (Ref:2985563)   #35
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No talk like that, there are those who believe the World Championship is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Looks like another FIA way to screw over Sportscar racing to me.
Its true that FIA screwed up the old WEC at the 90's, but its also true that the old WEC, for several... decades... was also one of the biggest FIA World Championships, almost as big as F1.

Yes, i'm one of those that believe that the new WEC is a very good thing. I have some reservations (i'm old enough to remember 1992), but if FIA keeps Uncle Bernie's hands out of the new WEC, we may have another sportscar golden decade.

Let's wait and see. I have absolutely no problem to say i was wrong in the future if things go wrong, but will the guys who are against the WEC be able to do the same, if the championship became a global success?
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 16:24 (Ref:2985628)   #36
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Let's wait and see. I have absolutely no problem to say i was wrong in the future if things go wrong, but will the guys who are against the WEC be able to do the same, if the championship became a global success?
For what we know, the WEC is of interest in 2012 only because it will have three manufacturers in LMP1, and otherwise will be undersubscribed and disinteresting in every other class. What it does do, is dilute ACO racing entries into three series, instead of two, and you'll see poor LMS, WEC and ALMS grids now. Of course each series had issues of it's own to begin with, but to make moves to further weaken them wasn't the brightest overall move.

With BMW leaving ILMC/WEC next year, GTE Pro will be poor... so it will be down to the LMP1 cars. ALMS will have GT cars, LMS will have LMP2 cars....

North America will have one decent race, Europe three... I'm not sure sacrificing what were interesting North American and European series, was worth the races in China, Bahrain etc....

A field of six LMP1's hardly makes the WEC great, but then we also have to consider how the "regional" Le Mans series have been weakened too.
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 17:21 (Ref:2985683)   #37
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Are you being deliberately pessimistic Fogelhund or have you genuinely not seen all the WEC entry announcements?
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 17:38 (Ref:2985692)   #38
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For what we know, the WEC is of interest in 2012 only because it will have three manufacturers in LMP1, and otherwise will be undersubscribed and disinteresting in every other class. What it does do, is dilute ACO racing entries into three series, instead of two, and you'll see poor LMS, WEC and ALMS grids now. Of course each series had issues of it's own to begin with, but to make moves to further weaken them wasn't the brightest overall move.

With BMW leaving ILMC/WEC next year, GTE Pro will be poor... so it will be down to the LMP1 cars. ALMS will have GT cars, LMS will have LMP2 cars....

North America will have one decent race, Europe three... I'm not sure sacrificing what were interesting North American and European series, was worth the races in China, Bahrain etc....

A field of six LMP1's hardly makes the WEC great, but then we also have to consider how the "regional" Le Mans series have been weakened too.
I completely agree with Fogelhund. The WEC makes a "World Championship" for those with the biggest budgets, but as a whole, I absolutely think it's weakening the sport.

EDIT - Whoops, I had meant to quote Simmi's post...
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 18:34 (Ref:2985726)   #39
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It's weakening the ALMS. Impossible to say it's weakening the sport before the first round has kicked off.
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 19:23 (Ref:2985771)   #40
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Are you being deliberately pessimistic Fogelhund or have you genuinely not seen all the WEC entry announcements?

What maybe 13-15 LMP1, plus another 15 spread amongst the other classes? Is there anything of note in GT, besides AF Corsa at this point? Isn't that about correct? So five or six LMP1 of note (Toyota(maybe), Peugeot and Audi), plus what will end up being filler in this field, plus 15-17 other cars spread amongst 4 classes.
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 19:24 (Ref:2985774)   #41
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Sportscar racing in NA is destroyng itself as single-seaters did, and it all started years before the WEC was dreamed up, the rumoured GTE drain is due to GA GT3's and US DTM (if it happens).

Without the WEC Audi and Peugeot would have been racing a couple of times per year, that's if they were still in the sport, without them you could kiss goodbye to Porsche, Toyota, Honda, Nissan etc.

There's no reason to suggest the LMS won't improve next year, it isn't comparable with the ALMS, Blancpain is it's direct competition as it's competitor focused with European endurance races and similar cars. Two European series which should each see healthy grids and be backed up by national series like ADAC, French and British GT.

WEC will be the pinnacle for teams currently competing in the series mentioned previously, there'll also be interest from single seater and touring car teams and drivers.

The ALMS wants to play a similar role in NA, but local manufactuers and importers aren't backing the series, some are even are backing it's direct rivals, while the days of Indycar teams and drivers running ALMS programs seem well and truly gone.

It's a global economy, with global media coverage, the ALMS still seem to think they can put together a world class WEC rival consisting of a dozen rounds in NA, it can't happen. They either need to slash the number of rounds and encourage some of the big players to do dual WEC/ALMS campaigns, or follow the LMS model.
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 20:28 (Ref:2985807)   #42
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It's weakening the ALMS. Impossible to say it's weakening the sport before the first round has kicked off.
LMS doesn't even have an LMP1 class anymore if I remember correctly (unless that's been changed?). If so, I'd say the LMS has been significantly weakened as well.
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 20:57 (Ref:2985832)   #43
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No LMP1 in Le Mans Series 2012 is correct. Doesn't really change a lot compared to this season though.
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 21:04 (Ref:2985835)   #44
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What maybe 13-15 LMP1, plus another 15 spread amongst the other classes? Is there anything of note in GT, besides AF Corsa at this point? Isn't that about correct? So five or six LMP1 of note (Toyota(maybe), Peugeot and Audi), plus what will end up being filler in this field, plus 15-17 other cars spread amongst 4 classes.
LMP2 seems to shape up quite well in WEC, actually... I am not completely surr who alrray announced their programs and what is still rumors at this point, but I' be very surprised to see less than 6 or 8 P2-cars in WEC - more for the European rounds due to LMS-cross overs...

GT will have AF Corse, Aston with the Vantages and one Pro-Corvette for Labre, so that looks like a pretty good pointy end of the field for me. Rumor also has it that Manthey will be there with one or more Porsches.
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 21:43 (Ref:2985854)   #45
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LMS doesn't even have an LMP1 class anymore if I remember correctly (unless that's been changed?). If so, I'd say the LMS has been significantly weakened as well.
This is why it's a mistake to compare LMS with the ALMS, LMP1's didn't attract fans to the LMS, races aren't really marketed. As I stated above, it's a similar story with Blancpain, it could have spectacular grids in 2012, grids that would draw big crowds in a heavily promoted NA series, but the series will draw one man and his dog.

These series will be high quality and highly competive, but they serve the dual purpose of giving an arena for amateur drivers and helping young pro drivers and teams develop, ultimately to step-up to the WEC or ALMS.
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 22:07 (Ref:2985863)   #46
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Wouldn't be surprised if LMS avoids the 2 European WEC dates to allow the cars to compete in those European races.

With Brno in September and Portimão in November, we could have Le Castellet in March/April with Zolder and Donington spread between late April to July/August.

Plenty of holes to fit in a Spa race in May and a Silverstone race in August.
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 22:12 (Ref:2985867)   #47
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so much of this speculation is being treated as fact; I hope it comes off and I'll be delighted to be wrong, but Fogelhund's post #36 absolutely sums up my feelings about the WEC and sportscar/endurance racing at the moment perfectly.

Furthermore, I fear for GTE regulations as the market for these cars, compared to GT3 equipment, appears to be dwindling more by the year.
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Old 13 Nov 2011, 23:41 (Ref:2985919)   #48
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As good as the past 10-15 years have been I think it's pretty depressing if you need to look back decades for the sports last golden era, and to then come to the conclussion the sport should no longer aspire to be a World Championship, it shouldn't look to push technological boundaries, it should take the easy, more often than not, mediocre route.

Sportscar racing now has the opportunity to not only provide entertainment, but be an integral part of road car development, that's what gives the current movement substance, it isn't just an F1 wannabe or GT1 like flash in the pan.

It says a lot about how far the sport has come that some national GT series are far healthier than what was top level BPR GT in the mid-'90's, if you don't grasp the opportunity now all you'll be left with are the history books while you sit back and watch F1 and NASCAR grab all the headlines.
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Furthermore, I fear for GTE regulations as the market for these cars, compared to GT3 equipment, appears to be dwindling more by the year.
This was an area covered on RLM's broadcast this morning, the feeling is, as cool as it would be to have the SLS, the GT3 formula is heading for a world of hurt if a cap isn't put on development, the example given was an update kit requirement for 458's that are less than 12 months old. A GTE is what you'll need if you wish to run at Le Mans, it's why the Mclaren, Viper and possibly others like the LFA are in development.
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Old 14 Nov 2011, 00:07 (Ref:2985933)   #49
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GTE is headed for a world of hurt as well... Having the ability to run these cars at LM is a good thing and certainly helps with viability, but that didn't save GT1 either...

With a cost-cap in LMP2 I can see interest gravitating towards that once the current GTE-boom ends, possibly with a view towards getting rather prototype heavy grids eventually, not completeyl without GT-cars, but with them making up only 30 or so percent of the field.

And that's where the GTE-Am idea really fails hard - with the secondary GT-class depending on the primary class for car supply, there's no way it'll develop into something that is viable as a headline class on its own some years down the road.
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Old 14 Nov 2011, 01:21 (Ref:2985949)   #50
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For what we know, the WEC is of interest in 2012 only because it will have three manufacturers in LMP1, and otherwise will be undersubscribed and disinteresting in every other class. What it does do, is dilute ACO racing entries into three series, instead of two, and you'll see poor LMS, WEC and ALMS grids now. Of course each series had issues of it's own to begin with, but to make moves to further weaken them wasn't the brightest overall move.
The WEC seems to have gained some LMP2 entries if everyone makes good on their promises. The good news for the LMS is that the WEC gains have not subtracted from their own P2 entry list. At least so far that is the case, we'll have to see what Boutsen and a couple of other teams announce. I can't remember if this has been announced or what the rumor is exactly, but perhaps Pecom/AF Corse will leave LMS P2 for WEC P2. That might be one subtraction, but we'll see about that.

I don't know what is going on exactly with GTE-Pro in the LMS and WEC. I don't know if there will be any defectors from LMS to WEC. IMSA Performance maybe? Of course, I don't know if the LMS will keep all of their teams either. Wasn't there a rumor that JWA might run a car in the WEC? Or is the rumor for an -Am car?

I can't really blame the ACO for wanting to set up a world championship (not by name) if there is some interest to do so, but I can blame them for making love to the FIA. I can blame them for ruining or trying their best (purposely or not) to ruin very well established events in exchange for some dirty money. Things are looking good for the WEC LMP1 grid right now, but we'll see. Stuff like the 30-50 viewers watching the DailyMotion stream of the race indicate to me that the ACO still has a long, long, long way to go in making these developing world races work both in the home country itself and in other markets from a viewership perspective. I think we could very well see a boom and bust so hopefully the ALMS and LMS can survive the bullets being shot at them by the FiaACO and all the other issues holding these series down so that they can pick up the pieces.

As a side note, I thought we had a glorious period of sports car racing in the late 90's without any championship and without some of the cornerstone races even. Porsche, Toyota, Nissan, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, the McLarens, and so forth. Some of those entries competed for championships, but not all. Yeah, that period busted too, but so did the glorious period in the early 1990s with two previously "strong" championships. So, in other words, I don't think this championship guarantees anything, but the potential for success appears to be there. It just seems to me that the FiaACO are building some cracks into the ship they are trying to build here.

Oh, Peter's firing of their ACO "partners" makes a lot of sense when you consider that it is rumored that the ACO did not even let the ALMS know about the Petit date conflict until it was announced. What a partner. It's nice to see that Patrick Peter does not suffer from Battered Wife Syndrome.
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