"I think we will have 19 cars no problem, maybe 20" Chris Pook

[Flatspot]

I'm not sure what I'm missing here. I see more than one post stating that Pook's comments are offensive, or he needs someone else to be his mouth piece and the like. I don't get it. What's wrong with calling a spade a spade? I fully support the idea that those who have made a living and more over a name in CART are not justified in trash talking the series, yet it doesn't surprise me. It's business (the nasty side of it) and human nature. Everyone always believes their way is the best way. His Winston-Bud-Pickup comment may be a little harsh, and call me a snob if you will but, when was the last time you saw a little guy on the window of a BMW peeing on a Mercedes symbol, and who would you rather be associated with. It may not have been the most eloquent way of stating it but Pook's point is noted.

I don't beleive Pook is God's gift to the racing world but I will say I think he is pretty damn good. When you understand that it is most often more difficult to reverse a trend than to create one from scratch you will recognize that Pook has implemented a stratagy of stabilization from which to grow. No more than that but certainly no less. Given the state of CART's affairs when he took the helm that is a big accomplishment.

As has been said by others, it is going to take 5-10 years to get CART back to where it once was, if it ever gets there. People need to remember that most of the eighties and the nineties were an economy like the United States has never seen before. Companies were flush with cash and they are not now. Most of the people asking questions like "where are the sponsor $$$" also beleive 15%-20% annual returns on their investments are normal and should be expected. It ain't the way it works folks. We've grown accustomed to the absurd.

In general companies don't have "cash" for sponsorship anymore. They are looking for true value. CART can provide that but will need to prove itself over the long haul as will every other series.

The fact is that every openwheel series in America if not the world is hurting right now. CART's woes are, as a public company, on display whereas its competitors are able to keep there affairs private.

If not Pook then I ask, who?

[indycool]

I agree, Flatspot, that the boxcar-number sponsor dollars aren't going to fall out of the trees for a good long while and it's going to be tougher before it gets better in that arena.

And I have no suggestions other than Pook for the job. In his defense, he just jumped into the quicksand with CART and it'll be a hard pull for everyone to climb out.

As far as calling a "spade a spade," though, I respectfully differ. His arrogance, paranoia and trashing of many just do not sit well with me. I cited a couple of examples. There are more.

His ongoing comments about conspiracies and "everybody's out to get us" and "olive branches" and "darksides" etc., etc., are appealing to some of the few thousand of us who participate on these forums.

But the GENERAL audience out there doesn't care and doesn't relate. That's the future fan base and TV audience from which CART needs to grow.

If they happen to enjoy the Indianapolis 500 and they hear the CEO of CART trashing it, they are turned off of CART and Pook. If they happen to be among the millions who drink Bud, they just got told they weren't good enough to be a CART fan. Same with pickup trucks. (When that comment was made and aired out on a thread, I remember one poster pointing out that he "just bought a $40,000 pickup truck, so I think I'm good enough to be a CART fan.")

I just don't think that you build something up by tearing everything else around you down.

I believe he understood in the beginning of his reign where he needed to go. For example, a positive, was that he immediately put down Promoter Revolt I smoothly and swiftly with a series of moves to appease the promoters. He knew that needed to happen for a 2003 season to exist.

But as problems built, some inherited, some of his own making (Judd), he has lost his way and lashed out rather awkwardly in the same vein as Heitzler.

With the general audience he needs to reach, Pook's problems are either offensive, do not apply or ignored and none of those elements are good. Just IMO, but Pook needs to get above this to earn MY respect.

[Liz]

Well, those are fair suggestions, too. I'm sure it's hard to remember that everyone's not against you when it seems all you do is shoot alligators all day long, though. Everyone gets tired and says things they shouldn't, and Pook I am sure is no different. (The fact that he refers to NA$CAR as "stock car racing" is instructive, I think.)

This is my own suggestion and may be as wrong as any other, but don't you think perhaps in his comments about not pandering to the pickup truck/Budweiser crowd he is really saying "We're not going to destroy ourselves to appeal to the lowest common denominator just in pursuit of money?" In the Southern branch of our family we always used to refer to that class of person as Trailer Trash until my sister reminded us that SHE lived in a trailer. Then we changed it to Shack Trash. But everybody knew what we meant anyway. (Jeff Foxworthy's You Might Be A Redneck If... class.)

Chris Pook is not a smooth talker and he's trying to do a heroic job of rescue in front of millions of critical people who have no idea what he's facing and are used to seeing every problem solved in under an hour with time for commercials and previews of coming attractions, and not with people with axes and torches waiting just outside the gates. If he gets a bit shrill sometimes, I think that's understandable.

[indycool]

Understand your point, Liz, and the pressures certainly play into it when there are so many shots being fired.

But if Pook is really saying what you suggest, I think it's even more insulting to the general race fan. Why would it be "destroying ourselves" to welcome that fan to CART races, rather than diss him and say he's not good enough to watch our races?

I don't call people "trailer trash" in the first place, so I can't really address that. As NASCAR was growing in the '80s and tut-tutters were ridiculing it as just a bunch of southerners drinking PBR and watching taxicabs, a friend of mine down south told me "the only people who care about NASCAR is the fans." Never more true than today and now there's quite a bunch of 'em.

CART has presented itself to the public, through the years dating back to John Frasco's chairmanship, as being the best and biggest and baddest and meanest and most powerful, etc., etc., and has consistently displayed that arrogance to the rest of the racing community. For the 1996 U.S. 500 at Michigan, there was the constant braying about the "BEST drivers and the BEST cars and the BIG stars," after which they crashed half the field on the start, prompting the wags to call it the "Mulligan 500" when they dragged out backups cars to restart the race. It was an embarrassment after CART's braggartry that effectively bolstered the future for the IRL.

This dates right through today, when you see the CART PR department concocting a story with Villeneuve and Montoya bashing the IRL out of Miami, putting it on cart.com, then emailing it to media representatives with a note saying, "we hope this will help you in your coverage of CART." Tony Johns of racingpress.com and Dave Argabright of NSSN caught it and called 'em out on it.

I understand people will disagree with me. But I'm saying Chris follows the long line of CART chiefs who want to huff and puff and blow everybody else's house down. I didn't think that approach was a good one in the past and don't think it is now.

[Liz]

Two different ways of thinking, which is good -- we can sharpen our views on each other.

Open wheel racing has always promoted itself as a somewhat upscale sport, hasn't it? A "sport for gentlemen" as it were? (Okay, I'll concede Watkins Glen is the exception that proves the rule.) You do meet a better class of people at a Champ Car race than you do at some NASCAR races. (I've never heard anyone at an open wheel race yell "Show us your " for one thing. Or seen anyone offer to do so.) I know everything's supposed to be "inclusive" and "non-competitive" these days, but there's nothing at all wrong with making your series different from the others and letting people know what demographic you're aiming for.

Maybe that means I'm an old fashioned snob. But I do like the idea of promoting Champ Cars as "We Are This and Not That." Because those who stand for nothing will stand for anything.

About the concoction of stories, I suppose NASCAR and the IRL never do that? Or are all their people "reputable sources" and all their stories "Insightful commentary" while all our people are shills and all their stories "spin"?

I appreciate the discussion BTW -- it's nice to meet up with someone who can argue the old fashioned way!

[indycool]

I appreciate the discussion, too, Liz, and it's what I really liked about this forum after I lurked for awhile, then registered, that people can talk about things without the name-calling and trashing elsewhere.

I don't think it's so much "open wheel" racing as it is "road racing" that was promoted as a so-called gentleman's sport. Oval racing was the heart of the series well into the CART days until the drift to road courses became predominant in the mid-to late '80s. Since then, the fan support shifted from oval people to road racing folks.

Since the oval crowd was, de facto, disenfranchised, many went to NASCAR because that's where the Jeff Gordons, etc., went when they couldn't go anywhere and race open wheel ovals, the money was getting better in NASCAR and they weren't even getting a look from CART.

You've used the word "snob" a couple times in this discussion and I haven't commented on it. The popular phrase used by oval-track people about road racing people is "wine and cheese crowd." In the cases we've discussed on Pook's comments and actions, it has come off to me as unnecessary arrogance.

(Incidentally, a friend of mine just emailed me 15-20 photos yesterday from the Surfers Paradise race where a couple dozen women were showing their censoreds and everyone around and including them seemed to be enjoying themselves.)

I understand telling people what demographic you're aiming for or strong in but I can't understand telling other people they're specifically excluded. I understand promoting "we are this" but can't understand promoting "...and not that."

I don't think NASCAR, the IRL or F1 or other sanctioning bodies and their PR policies are really involved in this discussion. I used that "obvious spin" as an example of what I felt was the overall attitude of this regime and its predecessors. But that cart.com story, I guess, is a perfect example of an "...and not that" bash. Maybe "attitude" is the overall word to describe what we're discussing.

Best...again, I appreciate the discussion, too...

[Crash Test]

Originally posted by Liz
I've never heard anyone at an open wheel race yell "Show us your " for one thing. Or seen anyone offer to do so.

Way OT, but you've obviously never been to the Surfers Paradise race?

This year the police had a sting where attractive plain clothes officers would walk around asking folks in the crowd to lose certain articles of clothing, then when they obliged, another officer would take a photo (from a distance) and a third one would come in with the cuffs!

Any new news in the last few days?

[Liz]

well, CT, that was news to ME!

"Wine and cheese crowd" is probably a more tactful phrase than "snob" I guess. Truer, by and large, too, as far as I have seen.

Anything skewed to a particular demographic is intentionally designed to shut out other demos, isn't it? For example, I don't think anybody could say that "Dawson's Creek" was particularly interested in whether or not 55 year olds watched their programs. And although it's now illegal (!) to forbid people with children from moving into certain buildings, the culture of the building makes it obvious that children are unwelcome and not catered to. Just because you've made it illegal to say it out loud (or "politically incorrect") doesn't mean the line no longer exists. Personally I see nothing wrong with it, myself. I have no desire to force myself into places where I'm not welcome; perhaps I came along after the revolution was over, or I'm insufficiently litigious. So I personally have no problem with Pook stating "We're not NASCAR and we don't want to be."

There's a big brouhaha going on over at the IMSA racing board about the Rolex 24 Hours (a Grand Am race) advertising its race in Road and Track Magazine using a photograph of an Audi R8 from 2000 racing at Le Mans. That car has never raced in Grand Am in any permutation -- in fact it is against their regulations -- and Le Mans is not on the Grand Am schedule. So it does happen in other venues occasionally.

[Liz]

Or are you saying that JPM and Jacques NEVER SAID those things that they were quoted as saying?

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by indycool
You've used the word "snob" a couple times in this discussion and I haven't commented on it. The popular phrase used by oval-track people about road racing people is "wine and cheese crowd."

First time I heard that was the 2001 coverage of the NASCAR Sears Point race, and I thought it was just referring to NoCal and specifically Sonoma. They do have good wines, after all.

I didn't realize it was code.

[indycool]

No, Liz, I disagree. I don't think anything that's skewed toward one particular demographic is designed to keep others out.

That would be like owning a T-shirt stand, a guy walking up to buy a T-shirt and telling him, "sorry, you ride a Harley and drink Bud so I can't sell you this T-shirt because you're not my type, you're not welcome and you don't fit."

Dawson's Creek may not appeal to 55-year-olds but if a 55-year-old with a Nielsen box wants to tune in, they're wholeheartedly embraced because that makes music at the pay window. They don't market AGAINST anybody.

Again, it's not a matter of what CART's not, it's a matter of what CART is.

Nobody out there in life but Chris apparently wants to do it the selective way.

[Lee Roy]

Originally posted by Liz
"Wine and cheese crowd" is probably a more tactful phrase than "snob" I guess. Truer, by and large, too, as far as I have seen.

I've always preferred the term "loud-mouth blow-hards" myself.

[tanalised]

what's all this **** got to do with Pook?

[Liz]

It's about how Pook presents himself to the media. What Lee Roy's comment has to do with him is beyond me.

[Lee Roy]

'bout as much as your comment did.

[indycool]

Liz, regarding Montoya and Villeneuve, cart.com writer Gordon Kirby specifically went to them with the assignment, asked them questions designed to bash the IRL and got answers bashing the IRL. They probably weren't misquoted but the whole thing was a setup. Kirby then wrote it for cart.com and Nate Siebens of the CART PR department sent the thing to the media with the memo. It was an amateurish engineered scheme to use Montoya and Villeneuve to fire a cheap shot and, as mentioned, two writers saw through it for what it was. I'll try to find it and post it, but think Tony Johns' "take" on it is still archived at racingpress.com.

[macdaddy]

Yet Villeneuve made similar statements while visiting the Miami race, without having been asked "designed" questions. I won't soon forget that interview, as I found it halarious the way he started trashing TGF as well.

[indycool]

Macdaddy, those are the statements I'm talking about. Liz, found Johns' piece. Here's the link:

http://www.racingpress.com/publish/j...ues10902.shtml

[norman-normal]

I don't think RUSH1 and Indycool are fooling anyone. In the US the. Republicans encourage (NRA, Relidgious right et,al.) To worm thier way into "un-American" groups so as to cause trouble any way they can. Look at the names they chose (Rush? Indy?); the lack of personal info. I don't know who put them up to it, Tony George? the GOP? could be, most of the drivers,the cars, the engines and a lot of the tracks are not American.....(AutoWeak, I like that)

[FastCar5]

[/QUOTE] It was an amateurish engineered scheme to use Montoya and Villeneuve to fire a cheap shot and, as mentioned, two writers saw through it for what it was.If true where did JV and JPM get their instruction to do so? And why would they listen?

It would seem to most that millionaire f1 racers would have better things to do than plot against the IRL. Is it possible that they may actually feel
sympathy towards the series that arguably "made" them and wish to express their feelings about it's problems without it being a "amateurish engineered scheme".

[rush1]

Fstolfar, you are right, I am a Republican. But my user name derives from music interests (a group from Canada no less!) not political affiliation. Are my posts part of an American right wing conspiracy to destroy CART? Makes sense to me. It is apparent that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld have been trying to destroy CART for years. Look at their record.

Villenueve and Montoya left CART so they could "move up" to F1. If thery cared so much they never would have left. Same with Zanardi and Da Matta.

[The Snout]

I don't care if Villenueve and Montoya's comments were setup, they still made them and it doesn't make them any less valid, it's their opinion which was what the thing was sold as anyway.

[norman-normal]

None of that explanes your presence here. By the way is MPH the only stock that went lost value?

[Snrub]

Well you see Cheney and Bush were bought and sold by the energy sector and let them shape national energy policy. The energy sector is mad at CART for using environmentally friendly Methanol. Okay the second part is a stretch.

Rush is a POS band, some of us don't like being reminded that they were Canadian.

Since nothing else is happening around here; I've always wanted to understand the logic of american repulican supporters, care to elaborate on why you're one? (seriously)

[macdaddy]

Whatcha mean, "POS"? Never heard the term before.
Off-topic, but Rush could rock with the very best of 'em.
But haven't cut a decent album in 20 years.