Ferrari dismiss Stepney/McLaren suspend Coughlan - Page 71

BootsOntheSide · 11 Sep 2007, 16:48 (Ref:2009459)

McLaren being heavily fined and removed from the Constructors' championship is probably the most likely outcome. Lewis is the biggest PR gift F1 has received in years, I doubt his championship push would be scuppered unless there is really good cause for it.

Gt_R · 11 Sep 2007, 16:52 (Ref:2009464)

Quote Red:"I don't really know how that will actually help.."

I think it isn't suppose to help, but rather, imo, mclaren want to scare Renault so that renault won't involve (or withdraw any information, maybe even testimonials) tthemselves in this case, especially near the hearing or at the hearing itself. Because according to most pitlane believe (to be verified) Renault is actually helping Ferrari lawyers build their case against Mclaren.

Knowlesy · 11 Sep 2007, 16:54 (Ref:2009467)

So it's OK for Renault to get involved but it's not OK for McLaren to try and ward them off?

I don't like it either way, FWIW. It is between Ferrari, McLaren and the WMSC.

Red · 11 Sep 2007, 16:55 (Ref:2009470)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Hmm.. perhaps that's the reason why Mclaren is sure they will be "exoneration"...

If that's all he got pre-flop, I think Ron should fold at first opportunity. Flavio already announced that he's calling his raise.

[edit]:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Quote Red:"I don't really know how that will actually help.."
I think it isn't suppose to help, but rather, imo, mclaren want to scare Renault so that renault won't involve (or withdraw any information, maybe even testimonials) tthemselves in this case, especially near the hearing or at the hearing itself. Because according to most pitlane believe (to be verified) Renault is actually helping Ferrari lawyers build their case against Mclaren.

Precisely.

Red Bulldog · 11 Sep 2007, 17:11 (Ref:2009493)

Losing constructor points would be very expensive for McLaren, but it seems to me they either throw the book at them (banned for the rest of 07 and all of 08) or let them off completely.
The former would seriously affect all of F1 and major sponsors, so there would have to be some really damming evidence of serious wrong doing.
So I think McLaren will be exonerated.

willb · 11 Sep 2007, 17:13 (Ref:2009495)

shouldn't this be in the other thread?

kipper · 11 Sep 2007, 17:16 (Ref:2009497)

I have to admit that I find it unlikely that McLaren's drivers will be significantly affected by the outcome - afterall the letter to the FIA did suggest that they wouldn't face sanctions if they were found to have had access to Ferrari's data. However, I suspect that the team will face a significant penalty, in order to put out an image that such actions will not be tolerated. Therefore, I suspect that removal from the Constructor's championship and a fine will probably be the most likely outcome.

duke_toaster · 11 Sep 2007, 17:18 (Ref:2009498)

I think that, whatever happens (even if Ferrari have damning evidence), the most that should be done is fining individuals and disqualifying McLaren from this year's WCC. The WDC should remain totally unaffected, the drivers probably didn't even know their cars were illegal.

Gt_R · 11 Sep 2007, 17:57 (Ref:2009540)

Quote Knowlesy:"So it's OK for Renault to get involved but it's not OK for McLaren to try and ward them off?"

Don't misunderstand it.

Renault's involvement is CLEARLY self-interest motivated. They afterall stand to benefit financially if their teams finish higher up the order... and Flavio probably want to "pay back" for Ron's tipping off FIA regarding the mass damper. For Flavio to even want to work with Ferrari (whom he doesnt seem to like alot), there must be a bigger reason to be involved.

Well, mclaren trying to ward off Renault is probably equally self-interest motivated too. But what is curious though is the question "Do Renault have information or evidence regarding the spy incident that can potentially incriminate Mclaren?" and by trying to ward off Renault, is Mclaren aware that they are warding off "evidence", thereby not wanting certain information to come out to light? And if these information are so sensitive to Mclaren, are they truths or rumours?

And with regards to Ron's strong support to "whistleblowing", why is he then withholding information that can cause Renault's exclusion (eg evidence/tip off of Renault doing something illegal?) until now?

But for Renault to then issue a statement to say they're not involved, clearly the "negotiation" initiated by Ron is taking some effects...

Marbot · 11 Sep 2007, 18:22 (Ref:2009564)

Apparently we can vote on what we think the outcome will be now!

http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~1~id~154314.htm

What about our own poll?

They're all at it!

http://www.itv-f1.com/Home.aspx

**Adam43** · 11 Sep 2007, 18:35 (Ref:2009569)

The official poll IS happening here on 10-10ths ON Thursday. YOU get to DECIDE what happens. CLEARLY this is DAFT.

davyboy · 11 Sep 2007, 18:53 (Ref:2009592)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

The official poll IS happening here on 10-10ths ON Thursday. YOU get to DECIDE what happens. CLEARLY this is DAFT.

Probably less daft than the scandal itself though.

Dutton · 11 Sep 2007, 19:00 (Ref:2009597)

I still find it intersting the idea that the team can lose its championship points and such, but not the drivers theirs.

The car is either deemed to have been created via illegal means or it hasn't. Whether the drivers knowingly drove it as such is surely irrlevant? They have still gained, at the expensive of other drivers, irrespective of intent. I am not clamouring for driver expulsions or anything at all (I am quite happy for things to remain as they are), but I do find the logic behind one championship being somehow immune to the effects of said benefits kinda weird.

Unless, of course, any punishment is dished out in terms of Mclaren's actions, as opposed to anything specifically related to car-gains. In that situation, well, yes, a coherent case for separate culpability could be formulated.

It all hinges on the reasons for any punishment that occurs, to my mind.

pottiella · 11 Sep 2007, 19:12 (Ref:2009608)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutton

Unless, of course, any punishment is dished out in terms of Mclaren's actions, as opposed to anything specifically related to car-gains. In that situation, well, yes, a coherent case for separate culpability could be formulated.

It all hinges on the reasons for any punishment that occurs, to my mind.

That's what I'm going on.

I think it'd be a travesty to effectively cancel the driver's championship as well. We have a great battle ahead, where even a Ferrari is still in contention ( would only take 1 bad race for McLaren) and the entire 2007 will go to waste otherwise. Fine the drivers by all means if the drivers need to be punished at all, but leave the driver's championship alone. At the end of the day, Ferrari have had reliability problems consistently which is why the drivers have fallen behind in the title chase - that isn't Mclaren's fault. Else the Ferrari drivers have been up there if not better than the McLaren to take race wins.

Whats more, is that since this whole spy case has started by the FIA, both McLaren and Ferrari have been developing their cars massively, and I cannot see how McLaren can do anything but their own genuine work to overhaul Ferrari's dominance at certain times of the championship, like at Monza after Turkey, so I think fair is fair, and it is pretty single minded and naive/ignorant to think McLaren have been this good lately as a result of this 780 page ferrari dossier.

By all means penalise McLaren if they've done something wrong; but the drivers have done their job absolutely fairly, setting up their cars with their engineers on developments that have gone way beyond what any 780 page dossier from Ferrari might have influenced. Too much goes too fast in F1 for a car in Monza to resemble the same team's car in Australia. Just ask Michael Schumacher who himself feels his ability to contribute to technical matters are dwindling fast because too much advances too quickly.

It is the only thing that can salvage something good for the sport this season - the driver's title.

Marbot · 11 Sep 2007, 19:13 (Ref:2009610)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kipper

I have to admit that I find it unlikely that McLaren's drivers will be significantly affected by the outcome - afterall the letter to the FIA did suggest that they wouldn't face sanctions if they were found to have had access to Ferrari's data.

This is what the letter 'actually' says.

"I can confirm, given the importance of this issue, that any information you may make available in response to this letter will not result in any proceedings against you under the international sporting code of the Formula One regulations".

davyboy · 11 Sep 2007, 19:20 (Ref:2009621)

In the event wrongdoing has occured, surely the FIA would be acting inconsistently if they don't penalize the driver. Jenson Button was banned for several races for running an illegal fuel tank. Why ? Because he and his championship position derived benefit from the illegality. I can't see why the McLaren pair would be any different. Remember, the FIA cannot and should not dish out penalties based on how exciting the championship is at any point in time.

Dutton · 11 Sep 2007, 19:25 (Ref:2009625)

That is what I was getting at, davyboy.

If they punish in terms of car-gains, then it would be absolutely illogical to affect only the WCC.

I can only assume they intend to punish on the basis of team actions, as opposed to car-gains, for that is the only way I can see to be able to leave the WDC unaffected without contradiction.

Knowlesy · 11 Sep 2007, 19:27 (Ref:2009626)

Quote:

Originally Posted by davyboy

Remember, the FIA cannot and should not dish out penalties based on how exciting the championship is at any point in time.

Maybe they'll decide to "Party Like It's 1999"...

**Bononi** · 11 Sep 2007, 19:37 (Ref:2009634)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Maybe they'll decide to "Party Like It's 1999"...

And then the world could end...

davyboy · 11 Sep 2007, 19:42 (Ref:2009644)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutton

That is what I was getting at, davyboy.

If they punish in terms of car-gains, then it would be absolutely illogical to affect only the WCC.

I can only assume they intend to punish on the basis of team actions, as opposed to car-gains, for that is the only way I can see to be able to leave the WDC unaffected without contradiction.

HHmmm, I know. However that kinda contradicts why they would drag McLaren back in. They said before that the team had acted illegally but wouldn't be punished because there was no evidence they'd benefited from it. In other words its the benefit that attracts the punishment... in which case the drivers should suffer too.

I get the feeling that FIA seem to be in some way stating that the driver doesn't know what's happening with the team/car and is only accountable for what he does on track. Therefore even if he benefits, he doesn't know he's benefiting and therefore doesn't get punished... wierd eh !

Dutton · 11 Sep 2007, 19:45 (Ref:2009648)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Maybe they'll decide to "Party Like It's 1999"...

Except all that decision followed was exact limits as outlined in the regulations.

However, I realise that isn't good enough.

*******

Yes, davyboy, indeed, it is kinda weird. It is how the FIA are going to explain all this in the event of any punishments that interests me most.

Given Max is so keen on using logical fallacies as proof of his own correctness (a logical fallacy in itself, really), well, I look forward with interest to see how he formulates any required explanations.

Knowlesy · 11 Sep 2007, 19:49 (Ref:2009654)

Leg pulling.

pottiella · 11 Sep 2007, 19:49 (Ref:2009656)

Quote:

Originally Posted by davyboy

In the event wrongdoing has occured, surely the FIA would be acting inconsistently if they don't penalize the driver.

yes, a bit like how inconsistent they are being in this whole case of information transfer...of course Toyota weren't a threat to Ferrrari when it happened a few years back, nor is Spyker and Torro Rosso with almost exactly the same scenario where the one lot openly admitted getting hold of the other team's secret info...

If the FIA were consistent at all, nobody would have issue, or be cynical about this whole case, or their motivations. They are shamelessly inconsistent...

There you have the FIA, ladies and gentlemen.

Teretonga · 11 Sep 2007, 20:03 (Ref:2009669)

Quote:

By Dutton
The car is either deemed to have been created via illegal means or it hasn't. Whether the drivers knowingly drove it as such is surely irrlevant?

The car itself wasn't illegal during the race according to the technical regulations. That is the sporting side of it. If it had then the stewards would have dealt with it. The argument is over the business/commercial side of the sport. Was there a breach of intellectual property and was there benefit from it.
Had McLaren gone and sought out Ferrari information and paid for it, absolutely wrong. A distinct deliberate criminal action.
Having a Ferrari employee allegedly distribute information he had no right to for no direct financial gain, simply to hurt his employer, is not the same degree of criminality on the recipient of the the information. Wrong to use the intellectual property yes, but how many tip off's happen in business and sport with no repurcussions.... So what is the evidence and can you prove a distinct gain from the dossier...

If the information in the dossier was not processed by the McLaren factory and incorporated into the design of the cars, then it is hard to prove, which is what the first hearing realised.

What they have to decide now is if the information they are getting is accurate and if it warrants a penalty....
And if so, what penalty.

And they must get it right, both under FIA 'law' and civil law, or the FIA could find itself backing up to a $200 million damages suit.

pottiella · 11 Sep 2007, 20:36 (Ref:2009697)

what a great article.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19615.html

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Proceedings against Nigel Stepney	mogwai	Formula One	51	25 Jun 2007 22:22
Should Ralf be sacked	OZ_HCR32	Formula One	65	26 Jul 2005 21:11
Alzen sacked!!	V8moz	Touring Car Racing	14	25 Apr 2003 20:18
Why HHF was sacked	Chris Strange	Formula One	10	10 Aug 2001 23:12