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Old 9 Dec 2023, 09:15 (Ref:4188711)   #6451
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Seems to me that all the drivers in the series should get an equal number of laps in the hybrid before it is raced.
They also need to make sure the system works as properly as possible as well.
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Old 9 Dec 2023, 14:26 (Ref:4188732)   #6452
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To add to the hybrid engine saga, Honda are considering leaving IndyCar after 2026.


https://racer.com/2023/12/08/honda-w...s-are-slashed/
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Old 9 Dec 2023, 15:07 (Ref:4188735)   #6453
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To add to the hybrid engine saga, Honda are considering leaving IndyCar after 2026.


https://racer.com/2023/12/08/honda-w...s-are-slashed/
Wow. That’s not just anonymous well-placed sources talking to Marshall Pruett, it’s Honda publicly saying Indycar costs too much for the value it generates for the company. Here’s a quote:

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“We’re looking for a wholesale change to the engine regulations so that we can eliminate fives and tens of millions of dollars of annual technical costs,” [American Honda Motorsports Manager Chuck] Schifsky said. “Because if we don’t, then it’s too much money, and we will go do something else. That something else could be NASCAR, or a further investment in our Formula 1 effort. Or something that isn’t motorsports at all.”
Schifsky also mentioned IMSA as an example of a series that generates ROI for the company.

So Indycar has a year to maybe 18 months to find a solution to reduce costs to Honda (and Chevy), likely by finding that illusive third engine manufacturer, or very bad things happen to the series…
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Old 9 Dec 2023, 22:54 (Ref:4188762)   #6454
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I'd like to know how much teams now pay for their engines. I assume the amount is set by the series and is the same for both manufacturers. Perhaps that amount needs to raised considerably to make continuing less of a burden for the engine mfrs. It might take a few cars out of the series which would also be good for the bottom line.



But I read that announcement from HPD as, "We are leaving Indycar after 2026".
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Old 10 Dec 2023, 11:10 (Ref:4188783)   #6455
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I'd like to know how much teams now pay for their engines. I assume the amount is set by the series and is the same for both manufacturers. Perhaps that amount needs to raised considerably to make continuing less of a burden for the engine mfrs. It might take a few cars out of the series which would also be good for the bottom line.



But I read that announcement from HPD as, "We are leaving Indycar after 2026".

Not necessarily, as Schifsky says: “If you imagine we’re now supplying 15 or 16 or 17 cars, if that drops down to say nine or 10, that will definitely reduce our costs and improve the return.”


I actually wonder if Honda's concerns about costs, have come about because of the delays to the hybrid program?

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Old 10 Dec 2023, 19:39 (Ref:4188800)   #6456
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Not necessarily, as Schifsky says: “If you imagine we’re now supplying 15 or 16 or 17 cars, if that drops down to say nine or 10, that will definitely reduce our costs and improve the return.”


I actually wonder if Honda's concerns about costs, have come about because of the delays to the hybrid program?

Could that happen without a third engine supplier? A third seems unlikely in the next two years, especially given the problems with the hybrid system.
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Old 10 Dec 2023, 19:50 (Ref:4188801)   #6457
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Could that happen without a third engine supplier? A third seems unlikely in the next two years, especially given the problems with the hybrid system.

It begs the question, if they get the hybrid system up and running successfully and a third OEM doesn't materialize, do Honda still leave, having ploughed all that money and time in their hybrid engine?
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Old 10 Dec 2023, 20:07 (Ref:4188802)   #6458
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Could that happen without a third engine supplier? A third seems unlikely in the next two years, especially given the problems with the hybrid system.

Sure, Indycar could renegotiate its deal with Honda and Chevy, shifting costs from the engine suppliers to the teams. I’m sure the teams won’t be happy, and it almost certainly would cost the series some entries.
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Old 10 Dec 2023, 20:36 (Ref:4188804)   #6459
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It begs the question, if they get the hybrid system up and running successfully and a third OEM doesn't materialize, do Honda still leave, having ploughed all that money and time in their hybrid engine?
The plowed in time and money is a sunk cost, and doesn’t justify the commitment of future resources. (See: Sunk Cost Fallacy).

And, in any case, Honda won’t have gone public if the announcement of another engine supplier was in the cards. At best, Indycar has until the Indy 500 2025 to pull a rabbit out of the hat and get another manufacturer or come up with a formula to shift a lot of costs from Honda (and Chevy) to someone else, presumably the teams.
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Old 10 Dec 2023, 20:54 (Ref:4188805)   #6460
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The plowed in time and money is a sunk cost, and doesn’t justify the commitment of future resources. (See: Sunk Cost Fallacy).

Based on that, then Honda could very well leave.
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Old 11 Dec 2023, 13:10 (Ref:4188833)   #6461
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Seems to me that all the drivers in the series should get an equal number of laps in the hybrid before it is raced.
Why, they get an equal amount of practice time with the final product. Not all drivers in the field are going to make the best use of testing and testing is NOT about getting fastest times but in this type of testing running a very specific program for the engineers. It's not often any more beneficial than the team being there and the shared data anyway. It's different testing for say IMSA where WTR had a huge advantage on the Caddy field by being the test car.
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Old 11 Dec 2023, 13:13 (Ref:4188834)   #6462
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To add to the hybrid engine saga, Honda are considering leaving IndyCar after 2026.


https://racer.com/2023/12/08/honda-w...s-are-slashed/
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Wow. That’s not just anonymous well-placed sources talking to Marshall Pruett, it’s Honda publicly saying Indycar costs too much for the value it generates for the company. Here’s a quote:


Schifsky also mentioned IMSA as an example of a series that generates ROI for the company.

So Indycar has a year to maybe 18 months to find a solution to reduce costs to Honda (and Chevy), likely by finding that illusive third engine manufacturer, or very bad things happen to the series…
Get back to me when they leave. It's getting old with HPD saying everything costs too much and we can't do it but then were the push for spending MORE money on a hybrid and NOT wanting to even test the IMSA system they alrady had access to. When they announce they're leaving I'll care but given they use the hell out of their Indy race pedigree in our dna ad campaign, yeah, shut it guys.
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Old 11 Dec 2023, 14:33 (Ref:4188844)   #6463
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Ouch.
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The plowed in time and money is a sunk cost, and doesn’t justify the commitment of future resources. (See: Sunk Cost Fallacy).

And, in any case, Honda won’t have gone public if the announcement of another engine supplier was in the cards. At best, Indycar has until the Indy 500 2025 to pull a rabbit out of the hat and get another manufacturer or come up with a formula to shift a lot of costs from Honda (and Chevy) to someone else, presumably the teams.
For example Audi cancelled their LMDh project without entering a single race.
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Old 11 Dec 2023, 15:10 (Ref:4188850)   #6464
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Ouch.

For example Audi cancelled their LMDh project without entering a single race.

That's somewhat different, as Honda have been an on going engine supplier to IndyCar since 2003, becoming the sole supplier from 2006 - 2011.

Interestingly, Honda were supposed to end their contract with IndyCar as the sole engine supplier after 2009, though on September 23, 2009, it was confirmed Honda had renewed their contract until the end of 2011 season.
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Old 12 Dec 2023, 14:30 (Ref:4188896)   #6465
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DHL moves over to CGR and Palou for most but not all races in 24

https://racer.com/2023/12/12/dhl-swi...sor-for-palou/
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Old 12 Dec 2023, 17:47 (Ref:4188909)   #6466
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Why, they get an equal amount of practice time with the final product. Not all drivers in the field are going to make the best use of testing and testing is NOT about getting fastest times but in this type of testing running a very specific program for the engineers. It's not often any more beneficial than the team being there and the shared data anyway. It's different testing for say IMSA where WTR had a huge advantage on the Caddy field by being the test car.

My impression was that the drivers are going to have to learn how to get the most performance out of the hybrid system. It seems to me that the drivers doing the initial testing will have an advantage. Perhaps the shared data will negate that.
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Old 13 Dec 2023, 17:32 (Ref:4188949)   #6467
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Fifteen-time IndyCar Series champion team boss Chip Ganassi says his two-time champ Alex Palou’s legal issue with rivals McLaren is “just a little speed bump”.

When asked by Motorsport.com about what support he can give Palou while he’s dealing with the court case, Ganassi replied: “I think the good news about Alex, nothing sort of on the periphery seems to affect him on Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

“When you look over his record with our team, you can see that he's had 50 starts with our team, and in those 50 starts he's had 24 podiums. Think about that, 24 podiums in 50 starts with Chip Ganassi Racing.


“He's only the second guy to win multiple championships at 26 years old or under in the hundred-year history of IndyCar racing. When you look at statistics like that, he knows he has our unwavering support in anything he wants to do.

“This is just a little speed bump along the way.”
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Old 13 Dec 2023, 18:10 (Ref:4188955)   #6468
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I think the only thing Alex can do is keep his head down and put the whole legal things in the past. However I am confident Chip and the team can help him do that, they are good at nurturing talent
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Old 13 Dec 2023, 18:23 (Ref:4188957)   #6469
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I think the only thing Alex can do is keep his head down and put the whole legal things in the past. However I am confident Chip and the team can help him do that, they are good at nurturing talent
How can he put a current and ongoing case “in the past?”
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Old 14 Dec 2023, 00:32 (Ref:4188975)   #6470
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How can he put a current and ongoing case “in the past?”
True to a degree.
He has to live in the present, and the case is ongoing in the 'present'.
It will also go on in the future if the case results in a financial penalty for Palou, although it will also have to be incumbent for Zac to prove the reality of the costs incurred if he is to receive compensation.

He has to be real loss as opposed to potential loss to McLaren.

The fact that they have installed Pato as a reserve driver basically verifies that they already had someone on their roster who would be suitable to take Palou's place in the F1 position, so really not doing themselves a whole lot of argumentative good.

There may be some financial pain for Palou to absorb but the detail in the contracts will be the major factor and the legal beavers will be the ones arguing that case.
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Old 14 Dec 2023, 02:57 (Ref:4188983)   #6471
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Honda wants out big time

https://racer.com/2023/12/13/hondas-...-supply-costs/

Suggests everyone should use the Chevy prepped unit
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Old 14 Dec 2023, 03:31 (Ref:4188984)   #6472
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Honda wants out big time

https://racer.com/2023/12/13/hondas-...-supply-costs/

Suggests everyone should use the Chevy prepped unit

Yup, with that interview it’s very clear that Honda is headed out the door.
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Old 14 Dec 2023, 08:03 (Ref:4188989)   #6473
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True to a degree.
He has to live in the present, and the case is ongoing in the 'present'.
It will also go on in the future if the case results in a financial penalty for Palou, although it will also have to be incumbent for Zac to prove the reality of the costs incurred if he is to receive compensation.

He has to be real loss as opposed to potential loss to McLaren.

The fact that they have installed Pato as a reserve driver basically verifies that they already had someone on their roster who would be suitable to take Palou's place in the F1 position, so really not doing themselves a whole lot of argumentative good.

There may be some financial pain for Palou to absorb but the detail in the contracts will be the major factor and the legal beavers will be the ones arguing that case.
The problem is that the consequential losses related to Palou’s F1 testing will dwarf his CGR retainer.

Palou has already lost the case. The only argument now is the amount of the damages due to McLaren. If this isn’t weighing on him there’s something very wrong.
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Old 14 Dec 2023, 13:01 (Ref:4189005)   #6474
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Uh, someone should learn to read the words they SAID to get a conclusion. I'm pretty good with reading intent and saying if we do X then someone could say why don't we do Y is NOT the same as saying oh we're done y'all are getting Ilmor motors next season. Schifsky was comparing how spec it all is outside of the ECU to the point of almost being as he pointed out the same as NASCAR has done with the Trucks of ONE spec engine and you can use whatever badge you like but Ilmor is giving you an LS2.

I could make the argument he is implying there is no reason for HPD to stay as they don't draw Honda fans, comparison to IMSA is bs on it's face as many fans support multiple manufacturers and are not partisan like NASCAR/V8 Supercars, to Indy but instead series fans. Given they pay to build a spec engine and Ilmor can build engines why not let them build all of them and we can NASCAR style badge the car as whoever. Notice he did NOT say Chevy but rather prepare to use Ilmor units.

But again I say get back to me when they actually leave instead of letting the media run their we want more money campaign
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Old 14 Dec 2023, 13:07 (Ref:4189006)   #6475
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The problem is that the consequential losses related to Palou’s F1 testing will dwarf his CGR retainer.

Palou has already lost the case. The only argument now is the amount of the damages due to McLaren. If this isn’t weighing on him there’s something very wrong.
If you think he is sitting there worried about what his lawyers will do to chip away at what Zak could potentially get, well you demonstrate you don't really understand the point of hiring a good lawyer. As no one has so far said anything about the details of his compensation or the in stone plans for use Zak can only argue we may have lost xxx, not a convincing argument when you immediately filled the spot with someone you barely used for any testing. Egg on your face is NOT a legal argument for getting a pound of flesh from someone, you would get the out clause, documented damages and any payments made but more than that is Zak's burden to prove not Palou. And he's a grown up who hired lawyers to do that for him. And HIGHLY doubt his losses testing are even close to what Chip was paying him or he left for less money?? Just think about that without the F1 is the bestest thing ever hat on for just a MOMENT. Piastri wasn't tearing up the track, McLaren on the rise and yeah, yeah let me take less money to run in Indy when I could run in F1 for more money and potentially get a race seat cause no driver thinks he isn't better than the guy in the seat.
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Misc IndyCar News/Info 2006 rustyfan IRL Indycar Series 27 24 Mar 2006 13:59
News from IPS and IndyCar road course test (updated) Down F0rce IRL Indycar Series 34 27 Sep 2004 12:17
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