Music to a Williams fan's ears

Glen · 3 Oct 2005, 13:02 (Ref:1422775)

BMW are struggling to get near 19,000 rpm with their new V8, and fully expect a difficult year. Fabulous! Straight off the back of whinging and bad-mouthing their team (whilst trying to maintain the illusion of having a perfect engine and Williams' woes having nothing to do with them) they are about embark on a new phase where they will be criticising their OWN engine. Ha. Most people here will have seen the on-line video evidence of the Cosworth 2006 unit doing over 20,000 rpm already - could it be that Williams have made a shrewd move in jettisoning the sour-faced Theissen and his crew?

As a fan of Williams I have to say I'm more worried about the switch to Bridgestones than I am about the loss of the works BMW engine.

Dick Spanner · 3 Oct 2005, 13:21 (Ref:1422804)

I'm with you on this Glen, It would surprise me if the Cosworth were not one of the stronger engines next year. I don't doubt that BMW will catch up (if they need to) but Cosworth have an awful lot of data pertaining to building racing V8 engines. I know that indy and champcar etc engines will bear next to no resemblance to a brand new F1 engine but a lot of the theory (vibration, harmonics etc) must still be relevant.

Lets hope that Bridgestone have learned their lesson and allow the other teams some input this time around!

Kirk · 3 Oct 2005, 13:26 (Ref:1422813)

The intro of the V8 into F1 is a fabulous opportunity for Cosworth and I expected their engines to be on par with the other top manufacturers going in to '06. If they are ahead right now, I suppose the question is how long will it take for the others to catch up. Having said that, I am surprised that BMW are struggling as they reportedly are. But it's early. I wonder also what the respective budgets are for the top teams and can Cosworth compete in that regard.

Louis B. · 3 Oct 2005, 14:08 (Ref:1422858)

Glen "Chamberlain",

Never underestimate the Germans!

P.S. I am currently neutral on whether wishing success to BMW for 2006 or constant blowing up engines. It all depends upon...

Snrub · 3 Oct 2005, 14:48 (Ref:1422892)

Really what do we know from that info? We know that Cosworth managed to spin their engine up to 20k rpm for the brief period that we viewed in that video clip. If BMW is having trouble with 19k, it could be that they simply can't do multiple race distances at 19k. We don't know if Cosworth can either.

flashF1 · 3 Oct 2005, 14:53 (Ref:1422895)

My understanding was the BMW V8 suffered from the Williams chasis in terms of RPM's.

The FW27 caused so much vibration in testing that they both BMW and Williams were surprised 19K was even achievable.

Look for 21,500 by the time BMW tests their V8 in the modified Sauber chasis in November!

Mr V · 3 Oct 2005, 15:04 (Ref:1422910)

Good news about the Cosworth engine, but i wonder how far behind the engine switch has made Williams for the design of next years car?

Glen · 3 Oct 2005, 15:11 (Ref:1422922)

Quote:

Originally Posted by flashF1

My understanding was the BMW V8 suffered from the Williams chasis in terms of RPM's.

The FW27 caused so much vibration in testing that they both BMW and Williams were surprised 19K was even achievable.

Look for 21,500 by the time BMW tests their V8 in the modified Sauber chasis in November!

The chassis caused the vibration?

! Could you enlighten us?

I'd like to know how that works - other than the usual BMW knee-jerk: if there's a problem, blame Williams.

**Adam43** · 3 Oct 2005, 15:13 (Ref:1422924)

I too am curious how that phenomena occurs.

Kicking-back · 3 Oct 2005, 15:14 (Ref:1422926)

Especially as the Williams has usually been ahead of the (superior engined) Sauber

EHS · 3 Oct 2005, 15:28 (Ref:1422936)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

I too am curious how that phenomena occurs.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6250615.html

"The chassis can also transmit road induced vibration levels back to the powertrain assembly which can over time create harmful interactions in the powertrain assembly. The damping mount acts to provide a vibration isolation device to control harmful powertrain motion."

QuickSilver · 3 Oct 2005, 15:31 (Ref:1422938)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snrub

Really what do we know from that info? We know that Cosworth managed to spin their engine up to 20k rpm for the brief period that we viewed in that video clip. If BMW is having trouble with 19k, it could be that they simply can't do multiple race distances at 19k. We don't know if Cosworth can either.

I'd tend to agree ... my washing machine could probably spin up to 20,000 rpm but I doubt it would last very long.

Glen · 3 Oct 2005, 15:37 (Ref:1422943)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EHS

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6250615.html

"The chassis can also transmit road induced vibration levels back to the powertrain assembly which can over time create harmful interactions in the powertrain assembly. The damping mount acts to provide a vibration isolation device to control harmful powertrain motion."

See bold bit!

**Adam43** · 3 Oct 2005, 15:40 (Ref:1422947)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EHS

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6250615.html

"The chassis can also transmit road induced vibration levels back to the powertrain assembly which can over time create harmful interactions in the powertrain assembly. The damping mount acts to provide a vibration isolation device to control harmful powertrain motion."

Yes, but what is (much) more likely? 'over time' This is something that stops it getting to 19,000rpm. In addition, why is there only a problem when the engine was changed?

Glen · 3 Oct 2005, 15:50 (Ref:1422954)

The link and the quote, by the way, are totally (I do mean, Totally) unrelated to the story at hand.

BMW have a long hard road of trials and embarrassments ahead of them - they won't be able to blame the Sauber chassis, because it will be a BMW chassis. They are talking about winning in 2007 - yea, right.

**Adam43** · 3 Oct 2005, 15:52 (Ref:1422957)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen

The link and the quote, by the way, are totally (I do mean, Totally) unrelated to the story at hand.

Quite.

EHS · 3 Oct 2005, 15:57 (Ref:1422959)

The engine is a stressed member of the chassis, and each have their own harmonics.

If the chassis flexes or resonsates at a frequency that would multiply any natural engine vibration (as opposed to canceling it out), it would add, rather than subtract, from the engine harmonics. The engine harmonics are in turn tied into the rpms.

Worst case, it will crack the case or the crankshaft -- which would effectively limit the revs, I as you can imagine.

Glen · 3 Oct 2005, 16:16 (Ref:1422976)

Just a guess, EHS, but I think an F1 team of many year's standing might have got that one worked out! Plus, the frequency of the vibrations is likely to be in a pretty similar range to the 19,000 rpm engine already fitted in the car, surely?

QuickSilver · 3 Oct 2005, 17:13 (Ref:1423007)

but Glen, surely the harmonics of a V10 at 19,000 rpm is COMPLETELY different than the harmonics of V8 at 19,000 rpm.

and EHS, thanks for the link, but F1 cars don't have little rubber engine mounts.

flashF1 · 3 Oct 2005, 17:19 (Ref:1423010)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen

The chassis caused the vibration?

! Could you enlighten us?

I'd like to know how that works - other than the usual BMW knee-jerk: if there's a problem, blame Williams.

You need to understand what's written and stop putting words in peoples mouth.

The chasis and the engine were not made for each other, but the fact that McLaren and Toyota have experienced a similiar problem is foreign to you.

QuickSilver · 3 Oct 2005, 17:26 (Ref:1423017)

yikes! there's gonna be a gunfight in here soon. i'm giving 5:2 on Glen coming out on top.

**Adam43** · 3 Oct 2005, 17:32 (Ref:1423020)

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

yikes! there's gonna be a gunfight in here soon.

I suspect there won't be. Right step back.

Let us go with the origin:

Quote:

Originally Posted by flashf1

My understanding was the BMW V8 suffered from the Williams chasis in terms of RPM's.

The FW27 caused so much vibration in testing that they both BMW and Williams were surprised 19K was even achievable.

You say it suffer from the chassis. You say the " FW27 caused so much vibration". It is perfectly understandable that Glen (and others) understood that you meant it was the fault of the chassis. Perhaps instead of accusing others of "putting words in peoples mouth" you could expand on your understanding and clarify.

People disagreed with this because it is practically unheard of. It may also help if you provide a source of your information so that we can try to understand it more.

A source for the following would be good to:

Quote:

Originally Posted by flashf1

The chasis and the engine were not made for each other, but the fact that McLaren and Toyota have experienced a similiar problem is foreign to you.

because at the moment it doesn't actual do anything to support your claims.

We are here to discuss motorsport, not get into gunfights. If you have something interesting to say then talk about it don't fight about it.

flashF1 · 3 Oct 2005, 17:43 (Ref:1423030)

See post 11 in this thread as evidence!

**Adam43** · 3 Oct 2005, 17:45 (Ref:1423033)

That link has nothing to do with this situation and specifically has nothing to do with BMW, Williams chassis, Toyota or McLaren.

ASCII Man · 3 Oct 2005, 17:48 (Ref:1423038)

How disappointing, going by the thread's title I thought Williams caught a high profile sponsor, but what's so musical to my ears about the fact that BMW can't (yet) produce an engine that goes 20000 RPM?

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