LMS Round 2: Monza, April 25-27, 2008

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by henk4

should you have known when I had said Curva del Vialone?

???

[henk4]

Originally Posted by minimangler

???

then better keep quiet

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by henk4

then better keep quiet

Or what, you throw more car name changes and old corner names at me?

[henk4]

Originally Posted by minimangler

Or what, you throw more car name changes and old corner names at me?

obviously you are unfamiliar with the Monza track...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Circuit_Monza.png

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by henk4

obviously you are unfamiliar with the Monza track...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Circuit_Monza.png

I hold my hands up!

I thought that was just the Ascari chicane. Which is it's usual name.

PS: It's still a creation

[henk4]

Originally Posted by minimangler

PS: It's still a creation

yes, we all know that. (I did not say THE Ascari, did I?)

Edit: Maybe a mode should delete everything after post 425...

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by zac510

Watching them all again in succession, there is certainly a common trait and this trait is that they took off when perpendicular to their trajectory.

Correct.

So, the question to ask is whether or not the aerodynamic package caused this to happen; or whether the flight of each car was inevitable and the aerodynamics helped to avoid a more violent accident.

I'm interested to know Mike's interpretation of the Monza accidents...

[minimangler]

Yeah, that'd be useful. But i think these accidents might be far more violent in say, a touring or gt car, because there's far more chance of a barrel roll.

I don't think we can blame the cars, surely? What, so the tyres are too sticky, making the car slow down drastically when sideways, resulting in lift? Hmmm.

[Holt]

Something needs needs to be done about keeping the cars on the ground when they spin out, currently they remind me of NASCARs before they implemented the roof flaps that glued them to the ground during high speed spin outs

The Audi R10 that spun earlier in the race almost turned over

The Ortelli accident wouldn't have been as bad if more of the turn 1 chicane was concreted, which wouldn't allow the car to dig into grass and start barrel rolling as violenty as it did. Also, that guard rail should have had tire barriers in front of it.

Overall these crashes have made me very scared, in my opinion it's just a matter of time before someone does something similiar but it results in a fatal accident like this http://www.endurancesportscar.com/audiaccident.htm

Only then, after it's too late, will you see changes to the cars to decrease the likleyhood of them going airborne in high speed spins

We shouldn't just be praising the idea the cars kept them safe, we should be looking for ways to prevent future accidents of this nature and ways to make the track safer for similiar accidents in the future.

[Purist]

Aside from the fact that I hate paved run-off (doesn't punish mistakes, allows cheating of corners, makes the place look like any other parking lot, etc), it doesn't arrest an out-of-control car like what is usually needed on that part of the track. So that's not a great idea, and cars can certainly dig into a gravel trap and launch, just as what happened with the solid ground that is there.

NASCAR machinery can and does still lift off from time to time, even with the roof flaps.

I think they have found a good balance with the cars, as they were relatively stable even when airborne. With anything you do, there will be gains and losses. You increase downforce, and the price is higher drag. If you have a visible negative slope from the side of the car to the undertray, you pack air under that and make lift. If you have low sides and a slope up to the middle of the undertray, that will probably suck some amount of air in, and create some lift with the extra air under there. If you have a flat bottom, the car is more vulnerable to a Group C/GT1 sort of blowover crash. And if you make the car too low to the ground, it's going to be too vulnerable to the ground effect and the results of breaking that ground effect (high pitch sensitivity).

So, truth be told, I'm not sure what else could be done better to prevent the lift-offs. I think your best bet is to look at further advances in the crash cell of the car.

BTW, not to sound cynical or inherently negative, but isn't it always a matter of time until the next "freak" accident, which may or may not result in an injury, or worse? The thing is, even now, we don't think about it until accidents do happen, and then we rather quickly forget.

[JAG]

Any lightweight car will lift when side-on, whther that be single seaters, touring cars or sportscars.

I've recently noticed any major crash involving lightweight, very quick, DTM cars results in the cars lifting off the ground, with big single seaters it's commonplace.

The key is controlling that 'flight'.

JCW's accident was texbook, the aero worked to keep the car flat, the gravel trap did the rest.

Ortelli's accident would have been similar, but a hard, bumpy grass infield that would have done Evil Kineval justice, launched the car. The lack of a gravel trap on the other side of the track accelerated the cartwheels rather than absorbing energy.

Monza needs a serious re-working with basics like gravel traps and tyre walls.

As for the cars, maybe they should have very large rear wing endplates, like those on 3.5 Group C cars, to generate lots of drag when side on?

[Purist]

We didn't actually see whether the Courage hit a significatn bump or not. It's certainly possible that it didn't. I think if it had hit a serious bump in the grass, the airborne motion would have been much more violent (like Joey Hand and Timo Glock have experienced).

Bruno Schpengler's start at the DTM race in Mugello showed that grass verges can be quite smooth, and even useful. Aside from those two things, the chicanes see a number of relatively minor offs. Grass arrests those cars to some extent, but doesn't ensnare them like gravel would (we REALLY don't need to have to call a full course yellow every time someone overcooks it a bit into the Variente Prima). And if the car is already airborne and dips a corner, you're liable to have that corner catch, dig in, and thrust the rest of the car hard into the ground, which isn't necessarily a better outcome than what we had Sunday.

Finally, even the Courage had scrubbed off so much speed by the time it got to the guard rail that I think whether it was steel or rubber there was a moot point.

[Holt]

Is the hans device mandatory in sports cars?

Michael Andretti in a very similiar accident at a very similiar speed at Mid Ohio some years back

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fBiXLikp2SM

Notice how the sandtrap, and not grass, slowed the car down and made the flips not quite as violent. If you watch Ortelli's crash when he hits the sand after the chicane it slows the car dramaticly. Also notice in Michael's crash at the end of the huge sand trap there is a tire barrier. I'm quite sure Ortelli would have liked a tire barrier to have been in front of the steel railing.

Another similiar crash, an Aston Martin in the exact same place as Michael's crash loses his brakes just like Ortelli

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hl2UUunlI2Q

If I owned Monza I would concrete the grass on the inside of the chicane or make it a sand trap. The grass inside the chicane caused the car to start flipping at an accelerated speed. I would also consider adding tire barriers ala Le Mans in the concreted/sand trapped chicane.

If racing organizers do not account for freak accidents then we would never have tire barriers in front of pit wall dividers, and the inside wall on ovals would not have the safer barriers.

There is just no way anyone should look at these accidents and say the car did it's job lets move on. Safety in racing is an ever going process.

[JAG]

IMO, a few extra safety cars is acceptable, rather than a grass/tarmac run-off area that has zero effect slowing the cars if they don't have all four wheels on the ground.

Gravel beds can flip cars when they dig in, but they also absorb energy, the grass gives enough to let the car dig in a little, but is too hard to absorb any significant energy. So in effect the car is sent into a cartwheel motion with similar amounts of energy as when the car first went off the track.

[Mal]

To me the car didnt dig in as it was the lead side of the car that lifted first, and most of the cars momentum had gone by the time it reached the barriers on the other side of the chicane. You have to remember also that at the braking point for the chicane at Monza the car would be doing over 200 mph (320kph) which is very fast in any circumstances.

Could flaps similar to Nascars, but located in the side pods help in this situation? - I too would be interested to hear the opinion of our more technically minded colleagues.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

There was some miscommunication with the team:
source: http://www.planetlemans.com/2008/04/...e-mans-series/

Quoting just in case someone didn't read that, Capello explains what happened in this crash.

[prototype]

I think this is a very interesting topic. One that could even have its own thread. After watching the replay on youtube several times, I have listed my thoughts for debate.

1. The car went airborne on its own, without any help from the grass. (this is easier to see in the second angle when it shows the car flying by Mcnish.) Had the car been launched by the bumpy grass, I believe it would have barrel rolled right from the begining instead of a clean launch through the chicane.
2. Tires on this outside of the chicane would not have had a big effect in this accident.
3. Comparing the accident to Andretti's in post 438 shows that gravel traps can be a good way to slow a violently flipping vehicle. (Andretti was hardly slowing down until he hit the gravel trap.)
4. Monza should put a gravel trap in behind the concrete runoff in the turn 1 chicane to prevent high speed accidents like this from being so violent.
5. It is worth a look at the aero of the prototypes to prevent these cars from getting airborne when they go sideways. When a car goes airborne the amount of drag is greatly reduced, which causes a much more signifcant impact when the car does impact something.
6. The cars (Creation, Audi, Oreca) all did really well protecting the driver during the impact.

Feel free to disagree.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by prototype

1. The car went airborne on its own, without any help from the grass. (this is easier to see in the second angle when it shows the car flying by Mcnish.) Had the car been launched by the bumpy grass, I believe it would have barrel rolled right from the begining instead of a clean launch through the chicane.

Feel free to disagree.

the car obviously gets airborne as soon as it hits the grass alongside the straight but the crucial moment is not shown in the video. After that there is no stopping...If the grass section after the first right hand turn had been concrete, the damage to the tub could have been much more severe, now the softer grass might have actually prevented more damage.

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by henk4

the car obviously gets airborne as soon as it hits the grass alongside the straight but the crucial moment is not shown in the video. After that there is no stopping...If the grass section after the first right hand turn had been concrete, the damage to the tub could have been much more severe, now the softer grass might have actually prevented more damage.

Actually the pivotal moment in the Ortelli crash is shown in the replay from the angle just behind and to the side of the first chicane - it looks to me like the car wasn't 'launched' by the grass as we've seen in other cases before, but without a doubt the grass runoff did create visible instability just before the car took to the air. Did the grass runoff before the chicane contribute to the Courage taking flight? Possibly. Would Ortelli have gone airborne without the help of the grass? Most likely.

Once again I have to disagree with comments along the lines of those by prototype (although looking at how the aerodynamics could have contributed to the accidents is always prudent) and agree with the likes of JAG in that any car of an LMP's nature would get airborne in the Campbell-Walter and Ortelli situations. The role of the car's aerodynamics has to be to limit the extent of the car's ability to take to the air (and stay in the air once it gets there) and in all three accidents at Monza I give the LMP aerodynamics more than a passing grade.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by tblincoe

Actually the pivotal moment in the Ortelli crash is shown in the replay from the angle just behind and to the side of the first chicane - it looks to me like the car wasn't 'launched' by the grass as we've seen in other cases before, but without a doubt the grass runoff did create visible instability just before the car took to the air.

is this the "grass runoff" that some people would like to see being changed to concrete? and where would then be the limit? Do we need meters of concrete anywhere alongside the straights? Better move all racing to air fields then

[Purist]

I'll be honest, with all the new F1 circuits, I HATE what F1 has done with run-offs: concrete and gravel out the wazoo. It also means I despise when people seem so gung-ho to do more of it. Everything is so far away that the cars rarely hit anything solid, but also, I'd be so far away from the track I'd never go to one of them in person to watch a race. And with everything so far away, those tracks (new F1 circuits), for the most part, don't have soul or atmosphere, and NEVER will.

Now, as to the matter at hand. Notice that the Courage only has the one solid impact squarely in the grass, so the impact of gravel being there would have been minimized in this incident. Also note that the main portion of the car cleared the track surface, which is a far better result then having the crash cell come to rest in the middle of the track. As to the guard rail, the car came down more on top of it than against the vertical face facing the tracks, so the car would have landed on top of any tire barrier in place, minimizing its energy absorbtion ability in such an accident.

[CarolK]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

(DSC) Unfortunately, the 1st Creation (#14 JCW/Hall) has been withdrawn from the race. JCW and the car suffered a huge impact when Jamie hit the kerb and the car took off into the barriers during qualifying. Jamie is suffering from back pains and has been taken to hospital for a scan. He is, though, basically ok. Let's hope he makes a speedy recovery!

Understand he sustained pulled back muscles but subsequentally read on autosport about two damaged vertebrae. We were watching qualifying from the second variante where he never made the turn into the chicane, instead went straight into the tire wall. Have some photos of the car after impact - I think it's worse than the similar hit Heikki had with the McLaren at Barcelona. After a few minutes, it was a relief to see Jamie get out and walk away. Also hoping for a very speedy recovery for him, as well as for Ortelli.

This race has to rank as one of the best we've seen in a long time. Lots of excitement, extremely close racing right up to the end. On to Spa . . .

Carol

[deggis]

[minimangler]

we don't want gravel all behind the first chicane, imagine all the gravel that would be dragged on as cars got it slightly wrong. Curva Grande would be a gravel rally!

[Bentley03]

Reading an Oreca update on Endurance-Info.com, it seems the failure at the rear of the car (which led to the accident) was the result of contact made with a GT car through the previous sequence of bends.

And good news regarding Stephane; he'll miss Spa (where just one car will be entered), but the doctors are reasonably optimistic about his chances of being fit in time for Le Mans.