[BTCC] BTCC 2020 season discussion, News and Rumours!

[S griffin]

M-Sport have also run Bentley too

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The news article on M-Sport's website has this image attached:



I'm not sure if it is representative of the proposed engine, or just a stock image. Articles do describe the M-Sport proposal to be for the design, development, build and supply of a new engine though.
'As well as producing the new-specification engine over the next 12 months, M-Sport will work closely with Cosworth'

That looks very much like a Ford engine to me.
It would be far too expensive to design a complete new engine. It will be based on a manufacturers existing engine. If it is indeed based on the Ford EcoBoost engine, it will be interesting to see how it compares to the Mountune engine.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I'd prefer to see something like a 1.4 or 1.6 engine maybe with twin turbos. You could easily get to 380BHP (the rumored current benchmark performance figure) with that configuration.

To get that level of power from a 1.4 or 1.6 litre engine would be very expensive and or not very reliable in expecting it to last a race weekend without the need for a rebuild, let alone a full race season.

[crmalcolm]

[Alfaholic]

What's wrong with half a Bentley Continental GT3 motor as a base? It's a 4 litre twin turbo V8, so just chop it in half and it fits all the criteria

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Meant to say - I'm not sure if the image from M-Sport is a Ford unit, but I can see the similarities.

Although I think it's still not certain if the image is of the planned engine, or just a stock image.

I'd expect it to be developed from something that already exists, and the Ford unit would make sense. Although I guess it could also be something nearer 1.4/1.5 litre that aligns with other engines typically seen on the forecourt?

[MagicBoy]

Originally Posted by S griffin

M-Sport have also run Bentley too

And a bank of a Bentley 4.0 V8 is essentially a 4 pot 2.0 turbo engine... probably utilising lots of shared VW group technologies.

Maybe we'll get a change in engine formula, but I doubt we'll see a capacity drop. Most brands have a 2.0 turbo of some description.

[peebee2]

That ‘Bentley’ V8 motor is actually an Audi engine...

Wouldn’t surprise me at all if new BTCC engine was smaller capacity, which seems to be the way of the world.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by peebee2

That ‘Bentley’ V8 motor is actually an Audi engine...

Wouldn’t surprise me at all if new BTCC engine was smaller capacity, which seems to be the way of the world.

But if there's a change in engine size then everyone will have to develop their own new motor (or will TOCA insist that everyone uses the stock engine the same as they all have to use the stock suspension?) That doesn't sound like a cheap option to me.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

But if there's a change in engine size then everyone will have to develop their own new motor

Would they? As long as the power of the units was comparable, then existing 2.0L units may still be permitted until replaced.

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Would they? As long as the power of the units was comparable, then existing 2.0L units may still be permitted until replaced.

Sounds like an equalisation headache to me.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Would they? As long as the power of the units was comparable, then existing 2.0L units may still be permitted until replaced.

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Sounds like an equalisation headache to me.

I agree with Craner Curves here, un-level playing fields and moved goal posts to use a couple of popular phrases and a totally un-necessary complication and expense. We've all seen the financial kicking Formula One is suffering cue to the pandemic and although the numbers may not be so spectacular, I'm sure that BTCC teams will be suffering a similar thing. Sponsors are essential to run these cars and how are they going to feel about the return they are going to get now this season compared to what they were expecting to get? There will be much less exposure to live viewers as the races surely will be run behind closed doors, plus I doubt if it will be allowed for the hospitality guests to enter the circuits either. The last thing any racing championship needs at the moment is more expense.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Sounds like an equalisation headache to me.

True, but no real difference to now, “balancing” turbos etc. for different chassis and the like.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I agree with Craner Curves here, un-level playing fields and moved goal posts to use a couple of popular phrases and a totally un-necessary complication and expense.

How is that different to what we have now?

The Honda, Ford, BMW and TOCA units all produce different levels of power without performance adjustments being made. They also go through analysis at the start of the season to 'equalise', and then are subject to ongoing adjustment through the season to 'equalise' further.

If, for instance, the new engine was a 1.5L or 1.6L unit producing similar figures to current (approx. 380bhp?), then all engines would go through the same equalisation process as they currently do surely?
Honda, Ford and BMW would still be able to continue with their current units (so no extra expense), and be subject to adjustments applied to boost levels against the TOCA benchmark (so no more complicated than now).

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Sounds like an equalisation headache to me.

That's never bothered TOCA in the past? Maybe even add to the drama/narrative?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

How is that different to what we have now?

The Honda, Ford, BMW and TOCA units all produce different levels of power without performance adjustments being made. They also go through analysis at the start of the season to 'equalise', and then are subject to ongoing adjustment through the season to 'equalise' further.

If, for instance, the new engine was a 1.5L or 1.6L unit producing similar figures to current (approx. 380bhp?), then all engines would go through the same equalisation process as they currently do surely?
Honda, Ford and BMW would still be able to continue with their current units (so no extra expense), and be subject to adjustments applied to boost levels against the TOCA benchmark (so no more complicated than now).

I can see your reasoning and I am honestly not trying to pick a fight with you but the 'equalisation' required isn't just maximum brake horsepower, it is also maximum torque, and whereabouts this is delivered. From a marketing point of view I can see the advantages for a manufacturer to be able to boast that their 1500cc engine produces enough power to compete with/beat all of the other manufacturers 2 litres, but the TOCA unit is just supposed to be an un-branded alternative for teams to use instead of developing an engine themselves, or if there is not a suitable donor engine available from the manufacturer of the vehicle that they are using. Having engines of the same capacity is one of the many level playing field parts of the BTCC regulations along with standardised suspension, wheels & tyre sizes and brakes etc. I just see it as an un-necessary complication and ultimately expense as it could encourage other manufacturers to produce their own (probably even) smaller engines to claim supremacy,

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I can see your reasoning and I am honestly not trying to pick a fight with you but the 'equalisation' required isn't just maximum brake horsepower, it is also maximum torque, and whereabouts this is delivered. From a marketing point of view I can see the advantages for a manufacturer to be able to boast that their 1500cc engine produces enough power to compete with/beat all of the other manufacturers 2 litres, but the TOCA unit is just supposed to be an un-branded alternative for teams to use instead of developing an engine themselves, or if there is not a suitable donor engine available from the manufacturer of the vehicle that they are using. Having engines of the same capacity is one of the many level playing field parts of the BTCC regulations along with standardised suspension, wheels & tyre sizes and brakes etc. I just see it as an un-necessary complication and ultimately expense as it could encourage other manufacturers to produce their own (probably even) smaller engines to claim supremacy,

I appreciate the points you make here. If only TOCA had stuck to their guns and banned RWD, we wouldn't have the RWD/FWD, CoG complications in play too!

Incidentally, the following image has also been used in some of the press releases:

[Alfisti]

My brain thinks that if the power unit is to have showroom relevance it will be smaller than 2 litre. But what showroom relevance exists in a BTCC car? Just a silhouette with big bumpers and arches in reality.

However, RS67s point about 380 hp out of a, say, 1.6 lump is right - I don't think anybody could produce that reliably. But of course technology moves on, and the 350 hp on the last Focus RS road car raised many eyebrows - as did the 270 on the last Astra VXR a few years previously. So I wouldn't rule a smaller unit out.

Financially it will be based on somebody's product, the cost of design and development of an engine is astronomical - to create a specific engine for a race series is a non starter - the cost to teams would be far too high or it would have to be subsidised. Neither of which will happen.

I guess we'll see, but if I were a gambling man I'd wager a Ford lump heavily modified.

[crmalcolm]

Just looking at what M-Sport are currently supporting, they describe the Fiesta WRC engine as:

'the Ford Fiesta WRC is M-Sport's top-specification rally car – producing 380 bhp and 450 Nm of torque from its bespoke Ecoboost-powered 1600cc direct injection engine.'

Obviously it's all speculation at the moment, but my money would be on that engine being the starting point....

https://d1d5ae37-f9f7-471a-94be-cbd6...bfe53380d7.pdf
ENGINE:
Ford EcoBoost 1600cc direct injection engine developed by M-Sport and Ford. Four cylinders, 16 valves. Bore 83.0mm. Stroke 73.9mm. Cosworth electronic engine management system. Garrett turbocharger with 36 mm inlet restrictor. Air intercooler. Catalytic converter.
POWER:
380 bhp
TORQUE:
450 Nm

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Having engines of the same capacity is one of the many level playing field parts of the BTCC

In reality, I’m not sure there is really much level playing field about BTCC.

[crmalcolm]

https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/De...--btcc-engines

Not surprising...

[HarryBrown]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Just looking at what M-Sport are currently supporting, they describe the Fiesta WRC engine as:

'the Ford Fiesta WRC is M-Sport's top-specification rally car – producing 380 bhp and 450 Nm of torque from its bespoke Ecoboost-powered 1600cc direct injection engine.'

Obviously it's all speculation at the moment, but my money would be on that engine being the starting point....

https://d1d5ae37-f9f7-471a-94be-cbd6...bfe53380d7.pdf
ENGINE:
Ford EcoBoost 1600cc direct injection engine developed by M-Sport and Ford. Four cylinders, 16 valves. Bore 83.0mm. Stroke 73.9mm. Cosworth electronic engine management system. Garrett turbocharger with 36 mm inlet restrictor. Air intercooler. Catalytic converter.
POWER:
380 bhp
TORQUE:
450 Nm

Was thinking a similar thing but cost might be an issue. Would be a good laugh to see a WRC engine in a touring car though, especially with the antilag system

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/De...--btcc-engines

Not surprising...

Also depending on previous usage that's cheap power £6K for 400bhp? Good option for a club racer I'd have thought.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Just looking at what M-Sport are currently supporting, they describe the Fiesta WRC engine as:

'the Ford Fiesta WRC is M-Sport's top-specification rally car – producing 380 bhp and 450 Nm of torque from its bespoke Ecoboost-powered 1600cc direct injection engine.'

Obviously it's all speculation at the moment, but my money would be on that engine being the starting point....

https://d1d5ae37-f9f7-471a-94be-cbd6...bfe53380d7.pdf
ENGINE:
Ford EcoBoost 1600cc direct injection engine developed by M-Sport and Ford. Four cylinders, 16 valves. Bore 83.0mm. Stroke 73.9mm. Cosworth electronic engine management system. Garrett turbocharger with 36 mm inlet restrictor. Air intercooler. Catalytic converter.
POWER:
380 bhp
TORQUE:
450 Nm

But to produce that level of power from a 1.6 requires a lot more specialist and expensive materials. That's why when WTCC and WRC went down the 1.6 engine route, TOCA chose to stay with the 2.0 capacity, the figures can be achieved for a much cheaper cost. When the NGTC regs were touted, a TOCA engine was £25k to buy. The price may have crept up a bit since as they are now allowed to produce more power than they were initially and the reliability for that needs to be built in. To do that for a 1.6 or smaller engine, you could be looking at as much as £50k.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/De...--btcc-engines

Not surprising...

But that advert is from January, well before this decision was announced.