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Old 6 Apr 2020, 09:39 (Ref:3968869)   #1
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Zak Brown and Changes to F1

Thought this deserved its own thread.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52175140

Basically he's saying that the whole thing is too expensive and there are possibly four teams who may leave the grid.

Personally, this reflects my view and one I've held for many years. The whole thing is over complicated and thus too costly to be sustainable.
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 09:45 (Ref:3968871)   #2
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Originally Posted by Peter Mallett View Post
Thought this deserved its own thread.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52175140

Basically he's saying that the whole thing is too expensive and there are possibly four teams who may leave the grid.

Personally, this reflects my view and one I've held for many years. The whole thing is over complicated and thus too costly to be sustainable.
The real question is what will be the gap between minimum viable budget and FOM prize money in 2021. Liberty / FIA can't be foolish enough to let this gap kill off teams.
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 10:19 (Ref:3968884)   #3
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i think it represents everybody's view to be honest. who's going to say it's brilliant that there's 500 people in a f1 team and it costs so much to produce a car that only lasts a year?

my worry has always been how they go about reducing staff numbers without mass redundancies.
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 13:07 (Ref:3968906)   #4
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my worry has always been how they go about reducing staff numbers without mass redundancies.
It's easy for us to complain about how big and unstable the sport has become. As you say the real impact is that all of these proposals effectively push many people out of their current jobs.

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The real question is what will be the gap between minimum viable budget and FOM prize money in 2021. Liberty / FIA can't be foolish enough to let this gap kill off teams.
The question is if Liberty "gets it". From the BBC article above, I think the key is what is called the "counter argument" (which in my opinion is really unrealistic). Which argument wins?

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Those arguing in favour of keeping the budget cap up at $150m argue that many of the smaller teams are not even spending that much, so lowering it would not help them survive financially.

Red Bull team boss Christian Horner told BBC Sport in an interview last week that the budget cap was "secondary" and that "reducing the cost to go racing" was more important.

Brown argued: "In football, while everyone knows Manchester United or Liverpool are going to win more often than not, every team has a chance to beat them, and in F1 it is just not the case.
Basically I read this as... big teams want small teams to survive to maintain "legitimacy" of the series, but don't want them to actually be competitive. They say they do, but their actions prove otherwise. The small teams want to hobble the big team enough that it pulls their performance "down" to their level. People's gut reactions will likely be that hobbling big teams is wrong (anti-competitive, blah, blah), but frankly IMHO it is the correct path. Even with caps, good teams will rise above the rest. It will be about quality of management, etc. that will create competent and well run organizations and that will be reflected by on track success.

It is all about the disparity between those up on Mount Olympus and the mere mortal smaller teams. Its not a level playing field and the current two tier setup is not healthy (given current discussion). This pandemic may be the trigger to resolve (or try to resolve) that long standing issue. And to be honest it was always going to be either one of the tiers having a real crisis (such as disappearing from the sport) to trigger change. The sport will cling to the status quo as long as it can. Even potentially right up to the point of collapse.

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Front cover of the current Motorsport magazine. It’s an elegant , straight forward F1 car. There is the rule framework right there....
I haven't looked at the image, but I suspect it doesn't matter. I am of the opinion that technical regulations will NEVER solve budget disparity... UNLESS the regulations specify a 100% spec solution in which ZERO development can happen. If there is room for development then teams will spend as much money as they are capable of raising. That is how it works today. In my opinion there has to be budget caps to keep the field "more" level than it is now.

(Small edit: Even if there is room for zero development, then well funded teams can make themselves "better run" in ways that smaller teams would struggle. So this should be seen in even spec series in which those with cash are able to get 100% out of the car while those with significantly less budget will struggle to do well with the same car. It's about shrinking the gap down)

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Old 6 Apr 2020, 15:06 (Ref:3968934)   #5
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...I am of the opinion that technical regulations will NEVER solve budget disparity... UNLESS the regulations specify a 100% spec solution in which ZERO development can happen. If there is room for development then teams will spend as much money as they are capable of raising. That is how it works today. In my opinion there has to be budget caps to keep the field "more" level than it is now.

(Small edit: Even if there is room for zero development, then well funded teams can make themselves "better run" in ways that smaller teams would struggle. So this should be seen in even spec series in which those with cash are able to get 100% out of the car while those with significantly less budget will struggle to do well with the same car. It's about shrinking the gap down)
i tend to think this as well.

all things being equal, it sounds reasonable to say that less complexity, simpler rules, more standardized parts etc would lead to lower costs.

but in reality, since the 90s (dawn of the manufacturers' era) costs have consistently gone up well past what one would expect through inflation and with arguably the the greatest budget increases happening over the past several years just as controlling cost through technical regulations and increased standardization became the norm.

the big teams just found other areas to spend in and imo they probably found more success/gains by overspending in those areas so naturally they spent more in those areas.

from this point of view, it seems to me that less technical freedom, more standardization, and rules banning this and that is directly correlated with increased spending.

for me, chasing reduced spending parity through the technical regs has not worked at all.
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 15:27 (Ref:3968944)   #6
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from this point of view, it seems to me that less technical freedom, more standardization, and rules banning this and that is directly correlated with increased spending.

for me, chasing reduced spending parity through the technical regs has not worked at all.
Currently, the teams are forced to an endless refinement. But refining something is the most expensive thing to do.
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 17:15 (Ref:3968962)   #7
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Standard front/rear wings, wide tyres no more than 6 gears and a Judd V10.
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 17:27 (Ref:3968966)   #8
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It's easy for us to complain about how big and unstable the sport has become. As you say the real impact is that all of these proposals effectively push many people out of their current jobs.

Richard

So what ? Are you saying teams must retain their current size because , somehow, they have gone from employing 50 people to 500 ? And so numbers can never reduce, ever , regardless of size ?



Sorry , but I am arguing about the sport, not employment opportunities. And , given the intellects at work in F 1 , I can think of many, many better outlets to apply them to than , y'know, saving a tenth round Monza through a tweak in winglet design
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 17:48 (Ref:3968970)   #9
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Thanks for the link to the Motorsports cover. McLaren MP4/6? Take the regulations from that era and drop them into today. Does anything really think the cars that would result would look like those cars from that era? There is no way they would. At a minimum we know more now than then about how to make these cars perform. So you would see current innovations on those cars.

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So what ? Are you saying teams must retain their current size because , somehow, they have gone from employing 50 people to 500 ? And so numbers can never reduce, ever , regardless of size ?
I think we are saying the same thing? I am not arguing to keep them as big as they are. Quite the contrary, they need to be smaller. Especially the larger teams. I am just recognizing that we can talk about this and we should not forget that we are advocating for people to lose their jobs. I don't want to be callous. As others have said, it's better to have a controlled scaling back than all of F1 launching itself off a cliff.

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Standard front/rear wings, wide tyres no more than 6 gears and a Judd V10.
Plus cost caps. See below for what happens if no caps.

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Whatever is done to the rules - however 'simple' they are - certain teams will spend an extortionate amount of money to extract the tiniest of marginal gains.
Suspension is a good example. It's purely mechanical which hypothetically should be simple. But in reality it is akin to custom made mechanical watch movements. Obsolescent from a timekeeping perspective, but extremely complex mechanical devices. So put in a spec suspension! Now money will be spent on something else. Larger aero budget for example. Reduce the number of aero changes per seasons! Teams will just work harder (more money) to ensure that they get it right the first time as more is on the line regarding aero optimization.

Oddly enough you could have more technical freedom with cost caps. However I think teams would fight against it (cost caps PLUS significant technical freedom). They want predictable results. Open technical regulations is the opposite of that. They want to have a small number of areas to devote resources. Not all over the place.

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Old 6 Apr 2020, 10:55 (Ref:3968887)   #10
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On the news feeds this morning Ron Dennis got coverage for the fantastic programme he is fronting to feed NHS workers. He was asked what he thought about Premiership teams furloughing staff - or in other words paying them with taxpayers money. He swerved the question quite rightly. However it’s not just well funded Football teams despite what the press may portray. Indeed McLaren under Zak Brown have sent 850 home . ...... Money that 1000’s of self employed in Motorsport and other industries are not eligible for.... its not just the Teams that may disappear but the entire bedrock of the sport who will go on to other - maybe more stable work in the future without a backward glance ....
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 11:18 (Ref:3968891)   #11
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It’s probably no surprise Sainz and Norris both agreed to cut their wages

Zak has a point, costs almost certainly need to be cut, particularly at this time. It’s bad enough we only have 10 teams, we can’t afford to lose more. Think how much they spend on the front wing alone. If we can have sensible stable rules at lower costs than they are it will be more sustainable for the teams and also can have the bonus of the competition between teams closer than it is now, so we can see more teams getting a look in. Might even encourage a few more teams to join
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 12:07 (Ref:3968900)   #12
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It’s probably no surprise Sainz and Norris both agreed to cut their wages

Zak has a point, costs almost certainly need to be cut, particularly at this time. It’s bad enough we only have 10 teams, we can’t afford to lose more. Think how much they spend on the front wing alone. If we can have sensible stable rules at lower costs than they are it will be more sustainable for the teams and also can have the bonus of the competition between teams closer than it is now, so we can see more teams getting a look in. Might even encourage a few more teams to join
Front cover of the current Motorsport magazine. It’s an elegant , straight forward F1 car. There is the rule framework right there....
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 13:30 (Ref:3968910)   #13
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Front cover of the current Motorsport magazine. It’s an elegant , straight forward F1 car. There is the rule framework right there....
Much too straight forward for Formula 1 these days. Everything has to be overly complicated.

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Old 6 Apr 2020, 14:03 (Ref:3968913)   #14
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Much too straight forward for Formula 1 these days. Everything has to be overly complicated.

That one had its own complicated bit: semi-automated manual transmission, with paddle shift and fly-by-wire throttle pedal.

Every generation of car has their own expensive bits, and people complain about them every time.
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 14:10 (Ref:3968917)   #15
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That one had its own complicated bit: semi-automated manual transmission, with paddle shift and fly-by-wire throttle pedal.

Every generation of car has their own expensive bits, and people complain about them every time.
It was by far the most expensive McLaren ever made at the time.

For the car's debut in Brazil they shipped three of them, along with three of the previous generation car which they had used in the previous round at Mexico City. Imagine the costs if you could still do that today!
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 14:17 (Ref:3968921)   #16
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That one had its own complicated bit: semi-automated manual transmission, with paddle shift and fly-by-wire throttle pedal.

Every generation of car has their own expensive bits, and people complain about them every time.
I was thinking of the car's aero, which for the last few years, has been the bane of F1 rather than any developments with the transmission and the throttle.
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 14:49 (Ref:3968929)   #17
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That one had its own complicated bit: semi-automated manual transmission, with paddle shift and fly-by-wire throttle pedal.

Every generation of car has their own expensive bits, and people complain about them every time.
And now most road cars have Flyby wire and many semi auto gearboxes. I cannot see a day when road cars have multi element wings, barge boards or carbon suspension pieces.

How about Homologate 3 front wings (5 element) , 3 rear wings ( 4 element) per season , steel suspension wishbones, spec wheel, in addition to the engine and gearbox restrictions as now? £100,000 per wing and and new design every weekend - do me a favour...
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 12:19 (Ref:3968901)   #18
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Hold the front page - "teams cannot agree" . They cannot even agree on what time of the day it is , hardly ever could , and certainly will not in the future. The fact that teams have so much leverage in deciding the rules of the 'sport' is undermined by the fact that any one of the big hitters can walk away , at any time, without a backward glance and with zero consequences apart from a big redundancy bill . The list is a long one, and includes Mercedes , Honda , Toyota , Renault , Alfa Romeo, Jaguar , Aston Martin, Maserati and Porsche ; and that is before we get on to engine suppliers ..


But when Mercedes went walkabout in 1955 , it had enjoyed no real influence on the rules . But we need now, more than ever before , to have a strong governing body which sets the rules , and , if you don't like 'em, because they favour team A more than B , then tough.


The absurd levels of self importance in F1 ,the tunnel vision , the delusion that F1 is not part of a wider sport , but a sport in its own right , and the budgets which looked crass in 2019 , but obscene now , need to be consigned to history.
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 12:44 (Ref:3968902)   #19
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Just a shame we have to wait till 2022 now to see what effect the new cars and regulations will have
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 13:05 (Ref:3968905)   #20
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Just a shame we have to wait till 2022 now to see what effect the new cars and regulations will have
Not entirely certain why anyone would think that the new rules will solve the problem. What is needed is a root and branch rethink. Which I think is what Zak is trying to say.
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 14:08 (Ref:3968915)   #21
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Not entirely certain why anyone would think that the new rules will solve the problem. What is needed is a root and branch rethink. Which I think is what Zak is trying to say.

I think as well as changing the technical regulations to make the racing more exciting, they are also trying to get costs down. I think there has been talk of a budget cap, but of course the big fear is whether any cost cutting goes far enough

I do though wish the cars had none of those extra aero bits and looked simple like that 92 McLaren on the front cover of Motorsport
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 14:13 (Ref:3968919)   #22
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Just a shame we have to wait till 2022 now to see what effect the new cars and regulations will have
Probably only be esports by then!
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Old 7 Apr 2020, 00:58 (Ref:3969023)   #23
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Just a shame we have to wait till 2022 now to see what effect the new cars and regulations will have
My crystal ball which has just had new batteries put in it says 2023.
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 13:07 (Ref:3968907)   #24
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It has been too expensive since probably the early nineties really. The expenses have only scaled up since and are no longer augmented with those iconic sponsor packages. Meanwhile nobody is really watching, regardless of the entertainment (which isn’t too bad imo). It is a truly excellent set of circumstances.

As bella says, sharp cost cuts come with mass redundancies. But the other path sees entire teams collapsing, which is even worse.

Perhaps corona virus will ensure everyone has to pull out anyways. Does that offer the chance to start with a totally clean sheet or does everyone just bugger off to other series and we quietly bury this F1 lark?

Summary: dunno lol
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Old 6 Apr 2020, 14:50 (Ref:3968931)   #25
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S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!
Of course, the big budget teams will always spend where they can, but the important thing is that their spending doesn’t put other teams out if business. That wouldn’t be right
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