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Old 7 May 2020, 11:01 (Ref:3974900)   #51
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The problem is if you look at F1 hybrids was supposed to get more manufacturers involved and only Honda really joined what was already there, so it rather defeated the object
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Old 7 May 2020, 12:25 (Ref:3974913)   #52
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
The problem is if you look at F1 hybrids was supposed to get more manufacturers involved and only Honda really joined what was already there, so it rather defeated the object
I'd have thought that was more to do with the insane cost of the F1 hybrid engines - if the cost was less more might be encouraged to join. It says something that independent engine builders (Cosworth, Judd etc.) didn't join the fun. If you're going to have a series that can survive without manufacturer teams you either need - customer cars (so a ruleset that can be used in multiple series eg: GT3, GT4, TCR) or cheap independently manufactured power units you can bolt into your chassis.

This leads us back to the "what is DTM trying to be?" question. Until there's an answer for that the way forward doesn't seem clear.
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Old 7 May 2020, 14:53 (Ref:3974939)   #53
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Indeed, I feel Audi aren’t helping things by refusing to supply cars to independent teams after they pull out. Just at least until more manufacturers come in. Then we don’t make any quick fix changes
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Old 7 May 2020, 15:26 (Ref:3974950)   #54
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Just at least until more manufacturers come in. Then we don’t make any quick fix changes
How much time realistically do you think we have?

I appreciate that rushed fixes can prove detrimental, but by the same token clinging on to outdated ideas can be just as harmful.

Sometimes, a quick fix is needed, before the situation is too far gone. Gow's return to BTCC is evidence of that.
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Old 7 May 2020, 16:35 (Ref:3974962)   #55
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Yeah, but Gow was proven. The thing is you need a plan in place and it will take time. Keep it going, while trying to attract more manufacturers with the right rules
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Old 7 May 2020, 16:55 (Ref:3974967)   #56
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Yeah, but Gow was proven. The thing is you need a plan in place and it will take time. Keep it going, while trying to attract more manufacturers with the right rules
But

A) what is that plan?
B) how long will it take?
C) how many manufacturers does it need?
D) what are the right rules?

While all that is being figured out, a large female is getting the vocal chords warmed up.
Unless you have the answers now?
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Old 7 May 2020, 17:02 (Ref:3974971)   #57
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Of course I don’t have all the answers. I am just offering my opinion. I thought that was the whole point of this thread?
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Old 7 May 2020, 17:34 (Ref:3974978)   #58
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Of course I don’t have all the answers. I am just offering my opinion. I thought that was the whole point of this thread?
Do you have any answers though?

From what I can tell, your opinion is that the series should just sit and wait in the vain hope of a winding back the clock 25 years to a time when manufacturers were interested in what is, now, an outdated format running to obsolete technology with extortionate budgets that are out of tune with wider society.

IMO, DTM and it's supporters need to wake up to the fact that it is 2020. The world is changing and that is going to massively affect how society, consumers and so in turn manufacturers see the future of the automobile and motorsport.
That change needs to happen quickly, and decisively on a major scale, or DTM is dead.

Is EV the answer? Maybe. It should be the first option considered, and if done right, could see DTM define the rule set around which many other series follow.
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Old 8 May 2020, 03:40 (Ref:3975030)   #59
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If I were Berger, then DTM would go full electric and has a few long distance endurance races with pit stops for battery change/fast charging (or other tech, depends on what works) and driver changes.

I still want same rules with Super GT and I will want both series to go full electric at the same time/year. Super GT does long distance races so why not DTM? DTM manufacturers can bring in extra drivers for the endurance races, while keeping it to one driver for the normal races.

When FE had its car change rule it looked ridiculous and BMW didn't want to do it. Full electric endurance races for touring/GT cars will be something attractive to the manufacturers.
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Old 8 May 2020, 08:40 (Ref:3975055)   #60
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I don't see electric as the be all end all. I agree with a previous post that customer cars should be a way forward. The problem is the series is too reliant on the manufacturers and the problem is when you see them leave you are in limbo. As we have seen in all motorsports, even F1, manufacturers will leave when it suits them, whether they are winning or losing.

Therefore they should look to attract manufacturers to enter the series and also for to supply cars to teams. And they should use this time to see what rules would get more makes and manufacturers into the series. Manufacturers do add to the series, but they shouldn't be crucial to survival

Anyway that's my two cents
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Old 8 May 2020, 08:59 (Ref:3975059)   #61
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
I don't see electric as the be all end all. I agree with a previous post that customer cars should be a way forward. The problem is the series is too reliant on the manufacturers and the problem is when you see them leave you are in limbo. As we have seen in all motorsports, even F1, manufacturers will leave when it suits them, whether they are winning or losing.

Therefore they should look to attract manufacturers to enter the series and also for to supply cars to teams. And they should use this time to see what rules would get more makes and manufacturers into the series. Manufacturers do add to the series, but they shouldn't be crucial to survival

Anyway that's my two cents
I think, in your post you've contradicted yourself a bit.

You point out the risks of relying on manufacturers. Then say DTM should look to attract them.
Then, use the time (delaying the inevitable) to create a rule set that is even more reliant on manufacturers?

Relying on manufacturers in any way, either as an entrant or supplier, is a sure way to see the series go further down the pan.

IMO, concentrating on the number of makes, marques or manufacturers ignores the obvious.
In 20 years, they've only ever had 5 manufacturers represented, and never more than 3 at a time. That's what you have previously described as excellent. If that is true, then variety on the grid is obviously not a requirement.

A rule set is needed that attracts entrants, and that needs to be forward thinking, not based around increasingly non relevant technology. Leave history for the historic series.
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Old 8 May 2020, 09:27 (Ref:3975065)   #62
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Relying on manufacturers in any way, either as an entrant or supplier, is a sure way to see the series go further down the pan.
And yet, manufacturer teams are a requirement if you want to have full grandstands as they are what gives a series legitimacy and makes it seem like a big deal.

DTM doesn't have the kind of household-name teams and drivers anymore that people would follow even if they were racing shopping carts, so the only thing they can identify with are the car brands.
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Old 8 May 2020, 09:36 (Ref:3975066)   #63
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I think, in your post you've contradicted yourself a bit.

You point out the risks of relying on manufacturers. Then say DTM should look to attract them.
Then, use the time (delaying the inevitable) to create a rule set that is even more reliant on manufacturers?

Relying on manufacturers in any way, either as an entrant or supplier, is a sure way to see the series go further down the pan.

IMO, concentrating on the number of makes, marques or manufacturers ignores the obvious.
In 20 years, they've only ever had 5 manufacturers represented, and never more than 3 at a time. That's what you have previously described as excellent. If that is true, then variety on the grid is obviously not a requirement.

A rule set is needed that attracts entrants, and that needs to be forward thinking, not based around increasingly non relevant technology. Leave history for the historic series.

No, I didn’t contradict myself. I said they should encourage more manufacturers to either supply cars or enter the series, but not be so reliant on full manufacturers being in the series. That’s my view, you have every right to agree or disagree with it.
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Old 8 May 2020, 09:40 (Ref:3975067)   #64
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And yet, manufacturer teams are a requirement if you want to have full grandstands as they are what gives a series legitimacy and makes it seem like a big deal.
I would disagree with this.
When has DTM had multiple manufacturers entering? - never.
Is TCR legitimate? - yes, and there are no manufacturer entries.
Is BTCC legitimate? - yes, and there is less reliance on manufacturers than DTM.

BTCC survived when no manufacturers were entering, which shows the strength in having the right focus on entrants not manufacturers.
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Old 8 May 2020, 09:44 (Ref:3975069)   #65
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
The problem is the series is too reliant on the manufacturers [...]

Therefore they should look to attract manufacturers [...] And they should use this time to see what rules would get more makes and manufacturers into the series
Reads like a contradiction to me?
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Old 8 May 2020, 10:15 (Ref:3975071)   #66
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Look I agree with what you say about TCR and BTCC. Both are not reliant on manufacturers, so if any come in, it’s great and if any leave it’s not the end of the world, because they have plenty of independent teams to keep it going. Maybe DTM should take the same attitude
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Old 8 May 2020, 10:24 (Ref:3975072)   #67
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I would disagree with this.
When has DTM had multiple manufacturers entering? - never.
They had those involved that count for the majority of the German fans: The big three Germans and for a while Opel.

Quote:
Is TCR legitimate? - yes, and there are no manufacturer entries.
And no crowds either - at least when run as a stand-alone.

Quote:
Is BTCC legitimate? - yes, and there is less reliance on manufacturers than DTM.
Does great Britain have a completely different motorsports culture as Germany? Yes, and that's why the two cannot really be compared.

Quote:
BTCC survived when no manufacturers were entering, which shows the strength in having the right focus on entrants not manufacturers.
I believe you could run DTM as a slightly upjumped club series*, but it would not do the name justice.

*I'm not implying that the BTCC is this. BTCC still gets crowds despite there being no proper manufacturer efforts, but it is a product of a very different sports culture.
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Old 8 May 2020, 11:12 (Ref:3975074)   #68
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They had those involved that count for the majority of the German fans: The big three Germans and for a while Opel.
If having them involved is crucial, then the series has to bend to their will.

All of them are focussing on EV or hybrid, so that must be the direction the series goes in then, surely?
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Old 8 May 2020, 13:06 (Ref:3975087)   #69
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Does great Britain have a completely different motorsports culture as Germany? Yes, and that's why the two cannot really be compared.

Summing this up, there's no chance to revive DTM other than eTouring, because all German manufacturers today firmly believe in Electricity. And it will take several years just to make a prototype. And, judging by enormous costs for a standardised cars, it will take them billions of euro just for marketing reasons.
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Old 8 May 2020, 17:40 (Ref:3975113)   #70
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I'd love to see DTM based on cars somewhat similar to Australian Supercars. You've mentioned that both Germans and Australians didn't like Super Touring and they had a reason - V8 Supercars and DTM cars were just more exciting and more 'theirs'. And since I remember, I've kept saying - DTM should stop looking to F1 or Super GT for ideas but rather to Supercars. I know Supercars is also in crisis now but this stems from the fact that Australian car market is very very tough. In Germany it's different and I'd love to think Supercars-like DTM would have the right to exist successfully.
People in Australia still buy cars though, just not ones with V8 engines.

Three of the top five vehicles in Australia are Utes. The other two are mid-sized hatchbacks.

The Holden Commodore ranked 49th last year, and the Ford Mustang 66th - between them they make up just 1% of the new car market.

Germany and Australia are not too different: Both the DTM and V8 Supercars suffered from spiralling costs and an over-reliance on (a small group of) manufacturers. That they have hit crisis at the same time is no coincidence.

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I can understand BMW being upset, they want the series to continue, yet Audi have quit just like that. It really has left the series in limbo
BMW don't want the series to continue that much. They're upset because Audi quit first.

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But

A) what is that plan?
B) how long will it take?
C) how many manufacturers does it need?
D) what are the right rules?

While all that is being figured out, a large female is getting the vocal chords warmed up.
Unless you have the answers now?
If the answer to C) isn't "fewer than one" then the other points are irrelevant because you are doomed to failure from the start.


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And yet, manufacturer teams are a requirement if you want to have full grandstands as they are what gives a series legitimacy and makes it seem like a big deal.
Manufacturer teams fill grandstands because the manufacturers spend a fortune on activation, with free or subsidised tickets for employees and customers. It's not sustainable.
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Old 8 May 2020, 18:32 (Ref:3975117)   #71
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DTM doesn't have the kind of household-name teams and drivers anymore that people would follow even if they were racing shopping carts, so the only thing they can identify with are the car brands.
Maybe the problem lies in the fans view of what they want being too far removed from the reality manufacturers face today?

Q1 2019 German car sales:
1-VW Golf-50,895
2-VW Tiguan-20,709
3-VW Polo-18,556
4-Ford Focus-16,148
5-Mercedes-Benz C-Class-15,933
6-VW T-Roc-15,500
7-Skoda Octavia-14,764
8-Audi A3-13,977
9-Audi A4-13,149
10-VW Passat-12,688

If the fans want the big three to race the type of cars they cling on to the hope of seeing, they should be out buying them in bigger numbers.
Are fans identifying with car brands though a historical lens? Or do they actually understand what car brands look like in 2020?
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Old 8 May 2020, 19:50 (Ref:3975122)   #72
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Now Motorsport-Total compare LMDh and DTM. https://www.motorsport-total.com/dtm...e-dtm-20050801



And I can not understand why those Class 1 cars were so absurdly idiotically expensive even if machinery was almost standard. Budgets were almost twice as big as DPi require. Were those "premier touring cars" made of platinum or what? Should they blame their trust into Premium label? Or ineffective management?

Besides, the article (in German) is full of strange conclusions itself. They say that LMDh is more "international" with racing all around the Globe. Well, Class 1 had two huge areas already (Europe + Asia) - it lacked America only, and could get some sort of Trans Am, and even South Africa (Wesbank or how it can be named today). Only if those standardised motorised advertising blackboards were not so absurdly expensive. How on Earth an absolutely standardised engine with frozen development for 5 years can cost more than DPi solutions?
As they write in other article, DTM's horse appeared to be too high. I'll add to that - no wonder it was shot.
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Old 8 May 2020, 19:54 (Ref:3975124)   #73
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Just remember DTM wasn’t always a silhouette series. When it first appeared in 1984 it was with the FIA Group A regulations which had been introduced in 1982. So no reason why it can’t suddenly become a traditional tin top series
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Old 8 May 2020, 20:24 (Ref:3975125)   #74
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
Just remember DTM wasn’t always a silhouette series. When it first appeared in 1984 it was with the FIA Group A regulations which had been introduced in 1982. So no reason why it can’t suddenly become a traditional tin top series
It's also a mistake, I feel, to view Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters as being the same as Deutsche Tourenwagen Meisterschaft

The differences between the two series mean that any reference to Deutsche Tourenwagen Meisterschaft has little relevance when discussing Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters, which I think this thread is about?
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Old 8 May 2020, 21:44 (Ref:3975130)   #75
S griffin
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Most people don’t care, they are both called DTM, everybody views them as the same. They both are the main touring series in Germany.
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