Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 16 Jun 2003, 22:39 (Ref:633610)   #1
JohnSSC
Veteran
 
JohnSSC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Slovenia
Pittsburgh
Posts: 5,073
JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!
Visible grooves, or lack thereof.

The Michelin teams (particularly Alonso) seemed to be running the fronts a very long time. My understanding of the rule is that the tire (or tyre) should have at least 4 visible grooves or channels. Alonso was the most obvious example, but it seemed a number of the teams had far less than the 4 channels. There must be a performance advantage or the teams would not do it.

How is this reg to be enforced? Is it the tires/tyres you start on or finish on? Can the stewards black flag you during the race for this infraction?

When is Bridgestone going to start asking the officials to enforce this rule?

Any thoughts out there?

.:confused:
JohnSSC is offline  
__________________
"He's still a young guy and I always think, slightly morbidly, the last thing you learn is how to die and at the end of the day everybody learns every single day." - The Ever-Cheerfull Ron Dennis on Lewis Hamilton.
Quote
Old 16 Jun 2003, 22:57 (Ref:633622)   #2
red5
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Germany
Germany
Posts: 37
red5 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Ralf schumacher said, his first tyres had a lot of graining at the beginning. So he decided to change only the rear-tyres.
there is a rule, that you should see the tyre-profile at the end of the race. in the parc ferme sometimes the tyres seems to be slicks, but there is a lot of dirt at the surface.
red5 is offline  
__________________
Racing is life! Anything that happens before or after, is just waiting!
Steve McQueen, Le Mans (1971)
Quote
Old 16 Jun 2003, 23:00 (Ref:633626)   #3
JohnSSC
Veteran
 
JohnSSC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Slovenia
Pittsburgh
Posts: 5,073
JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!
I agree that there can be a great deal of erosion. I am presuming then that it is the condition of the tires post-race that determines their legality?

Welcome, by the way, red5!
JohnSSC is offline  
__________________
"He's still a young guy and I always think, slightly morbidly, the last thing you learn is how to die and at the end of the day everybody learns every single day." - The Ever-Cheerfull Ron Dennis on Lewis Hamilton.
Quote
Old 16 Jun 2003, 23:10 (Ref:633635)   #4
red5
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Germany
Germany
Posts: 37
red5 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I am presuming then that it is the condition of the tires post-race that determines their legality?

*translate*
Puuh, my english is not the best.

But right, they verify the legality in the parc ferme after the race.
red5 is offline  
__________________
Racing is life! Anything that happens before or after, is just waiting!
Steve McQueen, Le Mans (1971)
Quote
Old 16 Jun 2003, 23:40 (Ref:633653)   #5
f1manoz
Veteran
 
f1manoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Australia
Lincolnshire, UK
Posts: 7,294
f1manoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridf1manoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridf1manoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
No-one seems to make a big fuss about it. Team managers occassionally claim they will dispute the result based on the grooves, but nothing ever seems to be done about it.
f1manoz is offline  
__________________
Sunderland Til I Die!
Quote
Old 17 Jun 2003, 06:29 (Ref:633793)   #6
Mark Webber
Registered User
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Australia
Australia
Posts: 2,685
Mark Webber has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
the way both williams tyres ended up both cars should have been thrown out of the race . rules are rules . otherwise do everyone a favour and go back to real slicks
Mark Webber is offline  
Quote
Old 17 Jun 2003, 06:54 (Ref:633806)   #7
Hugh Jarce
Veteran
 
Hugh Jarce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location:
A finely tuned body
Posts: 1,623
Hugh Jarce should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHugh Jarce should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHugh Jarce should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I didn't notice Alonso's tyres, but I saw both Williams in their pit stops and they appeared to have distinct 'bald' areas.

Perhaps they could put a very bright colour at the bottom of the grooves which would make it very obvious once they had worn away!

Last edited by Hugh Jarce; 17 Jun 2003 at 06:54.
Hugh Jarce is offline  
Quote
Old 17 Jun 2003, 07:04 (Ref:633817)   #8
Damon
Veteran
 
Damon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
United Kingdom
Hampshire, England
Posts: 5,577
Damon should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The rule is that as long as the tyres have grooves at the beginning of the stint they are legal. It is only if tyres are bolted on to the car already without grooves that it is illegal.

You're right Mark that rules are rules and this is no more true than in F1 so if anyone had been in breach they would have been penalized. As they weren't they cannot have done anything against the rules.
Damon is offline  
__________________
Brought to you by Glagnar's Human Rinds: "A-bunch-a-munch-crunch-a-human"
Quote
Old 17 Jun 2003, 07:10 (Ref:633819)   #9
steve nielsen
Veteran
 
steve nielsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Netherlands
Rotterdam- Holland
Posts: 4,413
steve nielsen should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
that's what they've been doing for ages, and still the rules say that if the grooves disapear the tyre must have less grip, well, that does'nt seem to be the case for Michelin.
steve nielsen is offline  
Quote
Old 17 Jun 2003, 07:17 (Ref:633822)   #10
climb
Veteran
 
climb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
St Pierre and Miquelon
closer than you thought!
Posts: 4,512
climb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridclimb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
This kind of analisys shows what I've said in another thread (slicks).
Bringing slicks back would solve a serious problem of rule-tricking.
Instead of having true and false grooved tires, let's have slicks for everyone and we're outta here!
climb is offline  
__________________
You got to learn how to fall, before you learn to fly
P.Simon
Quote
Old 17 Jun 2003, 07:29 (Ref:633835)   #11
golem
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location:
Australia
Posts: 729
golem should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
No, I think the rules state they're not allowed to wear down below a certain depth... I can remember this because I always figured 'can't they wear them down to a slick like surface by making them a certain way and not changing them?'.

Turns out they're right, and personally I think when it gets enforced it'll be a rude shock for someone.
golem is offline  
__________________
Gawky supermodels may look stunning in the right clothes, on the right catwalk, in the right city, but in an M&S jumper, on a crowded street, on a wet Wednesday afternoon, only classic good looks will catch the eye. - Ian Eveleigh.
Quote
Old 17 Jun 2003, 09:27 (Ref:633902)   #12
Mr V
Veteran
 
Mr V's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
England
The city of bridges (one day!)
Posts: 13,211
Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!
Re: Visible grooves, or lack thereof.

Quote:
Originally posted by JohnSSC


When is Bridgestone going to start asking the officials to enforce this rule?

Any thoughts out there?

John, i don't think that Bridgestone can, if you get a chance to watch the race again, pay close interest to Nick Heidfelds first (??) pit stop, the rear tyres that were put on his car had a serious lack of grooves.
Mr V is offline  
__________________
That's so frickin uncool man!
Quote
Old 17 Jun 2003, 10:29 (Ref:633974)   #13
JohnSSC
Veteran
 
JohnSSC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Slovenia
Pittsburgh
Posts: 5,073
JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!
Then it seems that:

1) The "disadvantage" grooved tires were to have (lower cornering speed due to less grip) has been engineered out of the tire. Alonso's times on the baldies were better than on new tires.

2) Since it is the condition of the tire when you put it on and then the condition at the end of the race, one could run most of the race on "worn" tires and get away with it.

3) If slicks are what we more or less end up with, why not stop the foolishness and go back to "real" slicks?
JohnSSC is offline  
__________________
"He's still a young guy and I always think, slightly morbidly, the last thing you learn is how to die and at the end of the day everybody learns every single day." - The Ever-Cheerfull Ron Dennis on Lewis Hamilton.
Quote
Old 17 Jun 2003, 11:26 (Ref:634033)   #14
Mr V
Veteran
 
Mr V's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
England
The city of bridges (one day!)
Posts: 13,211
Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally posted by JohnSSC

3) If slicks are what we more or less end up with, why not stop the foolishness and go back to "real" slicks?
I really wish that Max would listen to the fans
Mr V is offline  
__________________
That's so frickin uncool man!
Quote
Old 17 Jun 2003, 12:13 (Ref:634104)   #15
RWC
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location:
Qld.-australia
Posts: 2,083
RWC should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
They change the rules on this whenever they feel the need to.
Damon has it right-The current ruling is:"they only need to have legal grooves at the start"

Yes it is stupid-but this is the fia we're talking about
RWC is offline  
Quote
Old 17 Jun 2003, 22:29 (Ref:634978)   #16
JohnSSC
Veteran
 
JohnSSC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Slovenia
Pittsburgh
Posts: 5,073
JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!JohnSSC has a real shot at the podium!
It would be more interesting to go to slicks - might even things up even more between Michelin and Bridgestone or even better, entice Goodyear back in.
JohnSSC is offline  
__________________
"He's still a young guy and I always think, slightly morbidly, the last thing you learn is how to die and at the end of the day everybody learns every single day." - The Ever-Cheerfull Ron Dennis on Lewis Hamilton.
Quote
Old 18 Jun 2003, 16:23 (Ref:635658)   #17
avsfan733
Veteran
 
avsfan733's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location:
Rochester
Posts: 1,618
avsfan733 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by mr v
I really wish that Max would listen to the fans
That would be nice now wouldn't it!

Quote:
Originally posted by Damon
The rule is that as long as the tyres have grooves at the beginning of the stint they are legal. It is only if tyres are bolted on to the car already without grooves that it is illegal.

I don't think so, the way i read the rules and have heard from the commentators, they have to have discernable grooves when they come off the car. I don't think the number is specified at the end but they do have to exist. Its amazing that bridgestone hasn't challenged more, it seems to be some sort of gentlemans agreement but that can only go so far

Quote:
originally posted by Damon
You're right Mark that rules are rules and this is no more true than in F1 so if anyone had been in breach they would have been penalized. As they weren't they cannot have done anything against the rules.
I think that that is a wishful statement as we remember from the discussion of the Benetton fire a few weeks ago
avsfan733 is offline  
__________________
I refuse to let fact get in the way of my opinion
Quote
Old 18 Jun 2003, 19:20 (Ref:635873)   #18
Hungary 89
Racer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
England
Midlands (England)
Posts: 258
Hungary 89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridHungary 89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I think the original rule had something to do with the construction of the tyre being such that the tyre would overheat and performance would drop off if the grooves wore away completely I seem to remember they were going to achieve this by making the carcase of the tyre between the outer part (at the bottom of the groove) and the inner surface of the tyre quite thin

I seem to recall that this solution was proposed because as soon as it was announce that grooved tyres would be mandated there was alot of fuss about how it would be policed. By making some rules about the construction the tyres can be checked and deemed legal before the race weekend.

Now it would appear (as always) the boffins have found a way around the overheating problem so that bauld tyres keep performing.

All that said Keep wearing them down, the baulder the better because as we have seen with traction control if The FIA don't feel that they can Police something they simply Legalise it Which will bring back slicks and thats what we all seem to want
Hungary 89 is offline  
Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yellow Flags and Infringements thereof diz Club Level Single Seaters 92 18 May 2004 22:10
Are Yellow Flags visible? Stuart Hill Racers Forum 59 11 Nov 2003 20:07
Number of tyre grooves twig Formula One 13 28 Jan 2003 00:50
Introduce additive to make flames visible Valve Bounce ChampCar World Series 35 4 Dec 2002 07:59
Arrows form (or lack thereof) MichaelC Formula One 10 16 May 2000 16:09


All times are GMT. The time now is 22:49.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.